Tracing, Cheating, and Imposter Syndrome - DraftsmenS1E19 - Proko
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Date: 2022-03-14
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Comments and reviews: 10
Tacia
I just wanted to say two things related to this episode because I feel like they touch on important realizations that I myself have had in my own art journey and I-d like to share in case those realizations help anyone else. Firstly, I was not one to ever trace. I definitely considered it -cheating. - I felt like I wasn-t really drawing something if I traced it and also that-s a big thing I think when you-re a kid that it doesn-t count if you trace. I-ll admit I was surprised to hear you say professionals trace outside of like maybe graphic design or something where drawing is not necessarily a requirement, but I can understand where you are coming from. However, I would actually like to add that I think tracing as a beginner can be used to learn. Let me explain. I started tracing photographs to help me learn proportions, not to use as my own artwork but just as an exercise to learn from. I figured if I was going to draw that face I wanted to practice doing it the correct proportions first, before attempting it free hand. I even saved the line drawings of the tracing to use as a new reference so I would be less intimidated by the photograph. This is especially a helpful exercise to do while learning the Loomis Method. I would construct the Loomis head on the photograph, take a picture and then do the outline, take a picture, and now I have three references to help me. I always do the tracing practice first and then immediately start a free hand drawing on a blank canvas. Then In a hidden layer I have the photo ref and the tracings lined up with my drawing so that I can check back and forth if I feel something is off. I find this to be most helpful when you don-t have someone to critique your work and my work improved very quickly. The second thing which you did not talk about in this episode but that I feel is related is for some reason I had it in my head when I was a kid that I could not take art classes because I thought if someone taught me how to draw then that would be cheating because it would not be based purely on -talent. - Sadly, I regret that my parents offered to send me to art classes when I was very young and I said no for this reason (really I did not think I was good enough and I wish my parents kind of talked to me about it instead of just accepting my no. I was clearly obsessed with art and wanted to be an artist one day) The ironic thing is I went on to go to college for art right out of high school, and it never once crossed my mind how that was any different until years after I completed it. So my point in this very long comment is that looking at art as a skill, which is what it is, instead of looking at it as talent, and get it in your head that it-s something you can master with years of experience will help you understand that it-s okay to practice in ways that help you learn abstract concepts and its okay to accept the stage you are in right now, because you may be somewhere else entirely as soon as tomorrow.
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I just wanted to say two things related to this episode because I feel like they touch on important realizations that I myself have had in my own art journey and I-d like to share in case those realizations help anyone else. Firstly, I was not one to ever trace. I definitely considered it -cheating. - I felt like I wasn-t really drawing something if I traced it and also that-s a big thing I think when you-re a kid that it doesn-t count if you trace. I-ll admit I was surprised to hear you say professionals trace outside of like maybe graphic design or something where drawing is not necessarily a requirement, but I can understand where you are coming from. However, I would actually like to add that I think tracing as a beginner can be used to learn. Let me explain. I started tracing photographs to help me learn proportions, not to use as my own artwork but just as an exercise to learn from. I figured if I was going to draw that face I wanted to practice doing it the correct proportions first, before attempting it free hand. I even saved the line drawings of the tracing to use as a new reference so I would be less intimidated by the photograph. This is especially a helpful exercise to do while learning the Loomis Method. I would construct the Loomis head on the photograph, take a picture and then do the outline, take a picture, and now I have three references to help me. I always do the tracing practice first and then immediately start a free hand drawing on a blank canvas. Then In a hidden layer I have the photo ref and the tracings lined up with my drawing so that I can check back and forth if I feel something is off. I find this to be most helpful when you don-t have someone to critique your work and my work improved very quickly. The second thing which you did not talk about in this episode but that I feel is related is for some reason I had it in my head when I was a kid that I could not take art classes because I thought if someone taught me how to draw then that would be cheating because it would not be based purely on -talent. - Sadly, I regret that my parents offered to send me to art classes when I was very young and I said no for this reason (really I did not think I was good enough and I wish my parents kind of talked to me about it instead of just accepting my no. I was clearly obsessed with art and wanted to be an artist one day) The ironic thing is I went on to go to college for art right out of high school, and it never once crossed my mind how that was any different until years after I completed it. So my point in this very long comment is that looking at art as a skill, which is what it is, instead of looking at it as talent, and get it in your head that it-s something you can master with years of experience will help you understand that it-s okay to practice in ways that help you learn abstract concepts and its okay to accept the stage you are in right now, because you may be somewhere else entirely as soon as tomorrow.
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Ransome1690
On the topic of imposter syndrome both made pretty great points about the matter. But I believe there should be a balance in self awareness and confidence. If your still learning and something sucks then acklnowedge that it sucks, who cares, thats what learning is about and your going to more then likely fail more times then you can count. What you dont want is to lean too far to one side of it least it becomes a problem, You could become too judgemental of your skill and wind up a nervous wreck- I speak from experience and it is not a fun one to have, - and then the alternative, you could become delusional and think your work is the next David when everyone can see its not, You can ask the -creator- of Sonichu about that one, for those who follow that sort of thing. You must always be self aware and except your faults as an artist, but with the confidence that you will work to overcome them to learn.
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On the topic of imposter syndrome both made pretty great points about the matter. But I believe there should be a balance in self awareness and confidence. If your still learning and something sucks then acklnowedge that it sucks, who cares, thats what learning is about and your going to more then likely fail more times then you can count. What you dont want is to lean too far to one side of it least it becomes a problem, You could become too judgemental of your skill and wind up a nervous wreck- I speak from experience and it is not a fun one to have, - and then the alternative, you could become delusional and think your work is the next David when everyone can see its not, You can ask the -creator- of Sonichu about that one, for those who follow that sort of thing. You must always be self aware and except your faults as an artist, but with the confidence that you will work to overcome them to learn.
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rap
I only knew about Imposter Syndrome like more than a year ago, I-m 36 now, and I started and stop drawing( which I really love) since I was a kid. I tried to went back to drawing in my mid 20s, after few months I stopped again. Got back again in my early 30s then again I stopped. It-s just after I learned about this imposter syndrome that I decided I will NEVER stopped drawing again. After more than a year seeing my improvement I am so happy. I-m a slow learner too, but in 5-10years I know I-m sure I am far better than my previous skills. Lastly, I-m choosing carefully the artist that will inspire me, not all good artist are good teacher, and a lot of them are full of insecurities that they want to put down the dreams of beginners-
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I only knew about Imposter Syndrome like more than a year ago, I-m 36 now, and I started and stop drawing( which I really love) since I was a kid. I tried to went back to drawing in my mid 20s, after few months I stopped again. Got back again in my early 30s then again I stopped. It-s just after I learned about this imposter syndrome that I decided I will NEVER stopped drawing again. After more than a year seeing my improvement I am so happy. I-m a slow learner too, but in 5-10years I know I-m sure I am far better than my previous skills. Lastly, I-m choosing carefully the artist that will inspire me, not all good artist are good teacher, and a lot of them are full of insecurities that they want to put down the dreams of beginners-
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Glenn
In his portrait classes at CSUF, Don Lagerberg used talk about faculty arguments concerning photo reference for portraits. He would always say something like - We shouldn-t be arguing about whether students should use photo reference, we should be showing them how to use photos effectively. Then he would roll out the Artograph, and show us how to use it. It wasn-t a matter of simple copying or tracing. He would demonstrate a way of investing the head with what you already know. That would be drawing the underlying forms, or even the skull, before ever tracing the image. There would be at least two layers of tracing paper, one on top of the other, before starting on the final image. All of this done in the camera lucida.
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In his portrait classes at CSUF, Don Lagerberg used talk about faculty arguments concerning photo reference for portraits. He would always say something like - We shouldn-t be arguing about whether students should use photo reference, we should be showing them how to use photos effectively. Then he would roll out the Artograph, and show us how to use it. It wasn-t a matter of simple copying or tracing. He would demonstrate a way of investing the head with what you already know. That would be drawing the underlying forms, or even the skull, before ever tracing the image. There would be at least two layers of tracing paper, one on top of the other, before starting on the final image. All of this done in the camera lucida.
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handmade
The thing is, the knowledge that nothing could happen to you when you did a bad drawing would only help when you don't in fact have perfectionism or imposter syndrome. Any artist with enough common sense knows it's a phase, it's just psychology, etc, but knowing isn't feeling. Depressed people know it's only a mental condition, but they still feel the way they feel. This is why imposter syndrome or perfectionism, when severe, are valid reasons to seek professional help. I have them and have them bad. I don't lack objectivity or common sense, but they aren't helping. Therapy is the only thing that works.
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The thing is, the knowledge that nothing could happen to you when you did a bad drawing would only help when you don't in fact have perfectionism or imposter syndrome. Any artist with enough common sense knows it's a phase, it's just psychology, etc, but knowing isn't feeling. Depressed people know it's only a mental condition, but they still feel the way they feel. This is why imposter syndrome or perfectionism, when severe, are valid reasons to seek professional help. I have them and have them bad. I don't lack objectivity or common sense, but they aren't helping. Therapy is the only thing that works.
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DeinSpiegelbild
I personally started doing art by tracing illustrations I liked without the head of the character and then tracing the head of another character I liked on top of that. As soon as I learned the basic proportions of the human body, I began sketching figures without any further knowledge of gesture and traced each part of the body I poorly sketched seperately to get the result I wanted.
But by the time I realized that this way I'm too limited and dependent on ther's art, so I can't really draw my own ideas. That's why I think trying is a way to do art, but it's more limited.
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I personally started doing art by tracing illustrations I liked without the head of the character and then tracing the head of another character I liked on top of that. As soon as I learned the basic proportions of the human body, I began sketching figures without any further knowledge of gesture and traced each part of the body I poorly sketched seperately to get the result I wanted.
But by the time I realized that this way I'm too limited and dependent on ther's art, so I can't really draw my own ideas. That's why I think trying is a way to do art, but it's more limited.
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Kevin
imo; Tracing is drawing, drawing is tracing. Even if you are drawing from imagination you are tracing a line, in your mind. Draw a running creek, you are tracing the movement of the water. Maybe i'm waxing philosophical, but thats how i like to think about it. the master Kim Jung Gi suggests he sees the line before he draws, so in a way he's tracing what he sees in his imagination. I personally love sketching big and loose, then tracing it 3, or even 4 times over until im happy with it.
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imo; Tracing is drawing, drawing is tracing. Even if you are drawing from imagination you are tracing a line, in your mind. Draw a running creek, you are tracing the movement of the water. Maybe i'm waxing philosophical, but thats how i like to think about it. the master Kim Jung Gi suggests he sees the line before he draws, so in a way he's tracing what he sees in his imagination. I personally love sketching big and loose, then tracing it 3, or even 4 times over until im happy with it.
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bepinkfloyd
I remember having this problem when i was studying art. Then i realize why should i feel guilty to use some photo to have reference? I use photos to steal the mass of things and then use them As i want so i can't even see the photo in my draw anymore. Artists copiedfrom Real Life models, if Caravaggio had photos he would use them As reference for sure. Something complete different is tracing a picture or a drawing, who trace a drawing must know that he is just a fraud.
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I remember having this problem when i was studying art. Then i realize why should i feel guilty to use some photo to have reference? I use photos to steal the mass of things and then use them As i want so i can't even see the photo in my draw anymore. Artists copiedfrom Real Life models, if Caravaggio had photos he would use them As reference for sure. Something complete different is tracing a picture or a drawing, who trace a drawing must know that he is just a fraud.
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Edward
Oh - Thank God you addressed the issue of when to move on.
I am taking your figure drawing course and I've been spending a couple of days in gesture drawing. While I've improved some, I was comparing myself to your gesture drawing.
However, when you said it would take years to become comfortable with it, it made me realize I was putting too much stress on myself to match what you do.
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Oh - Thank God you addressed the issue of when to move on.
I am taking your figure drawing course and I've been spending a couple of days in gesture drawing. While I've improved some, I was comparing myself to your gesture drawing.
However, when you said it would take years to become comfortable with it, it made me realize I was putting too much stress on myself to match what you do.
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Ribbons
This was so interesting! I often feel unsure of my skills as I draw but I never knew that it was something so common or that it had a name! It's also a very useful advice to move on if you don't grasp something yet: I'm slowly trying to improve in drawing portraits but if I focus on them too long they get worse and worse. Switching to another style or subject can be really refreshing!
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This was so interesting! I often feel unsure of my skills as I draw but I never knew that it was something so common or that it had a name! It's also a very useful advice to move on if you don't grasp something yet: I'm slowly trying to improve in drawing portraits but if I focus on them too long they get worse and worse. Switching to another style or subject can be really refreshing!
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