Can Fish Count? - Numberphile
video description
Decisions take resources and time and only represent a certain level of -reward- for picking the right decision over the incorrect one so that wasting resources can even eat into the advantage the correct decision would bring so that you would be better off just picking nearly at random to start with.
Imagine you have 10 fish on one side and 5 on the other, you clearly see that 10 is more than 5 even if you don't actually count the fish but rather just sample them in some basic/inaccurate way (you quickly eyeball it and make a decision.
If you have 10 in one side and 9 in the other, if you quickly sample you can pick the cluster of 9 some more times (because of the simplified sampling) than you would pick a cluster of 5, the thing is that 9 vs 10 offers very little return for your spent time and resources to make a decision so that picking the -wrong- side won't matter much anyway.
In this case, if you need 40+ fish to be relativelly well shielded against predators, any -similar looking- cluster of 40+ fish will do just fine and the return will be minimal for you in case you decide to make sure (count them one by one) of what cluster has more than the other.
In bigger clusters sometimes the ratio can be nearly meaningless even if the difference is considerably big, if you need 1000+ fish to feel almost absolutely protected and in one side there's a cluster of 5000 and on the other 10000 you can clearly see that the 10000 one is bigger than the 5000 one but they're both great picks and you may base your decision in other factors instead of -protection from predators- but on, available females for breeding, speed of the cluster, if you can spot any sick individuals, if they're going towards a colder spot or a hotter spot, if they're going towards food or not, etc.
Date: 2022-04-08
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Comments and reviews: 9
007bistromath
I'd hypothesize that this isn't counting or even an understanding of quantity the way we know it. Instead, this is a result of the intuitive understanding of geometry, i. e, position and proportion, that all organisms capable of motion must possess. The same neurological system could explain both behaviors in this way. Numbers of physical objects up to seven or eight are easy to visually understand as a polygon or constellation, so the fish learns to seek advantageous shapes when dealing with numbers smaller than must be compared by ratio.
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I'd hypothesize that this isn't counting or even an understanding of quantity the way we know it. Instead, this is a result of the intuitive understanding of geometry, i. e, position and proportion, that all organisms capable of motion must possess. The same neurological system could explain both behaviors in this way. Numbers of physical objects up to seven or eight are easy to visually understand as a polygon or constellation, so the fish learns to seek advantageous shapes when dealing with numbers smaller than must be compared by ratio.
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Jesse
Black fish, Blue fish, Old fish, New fish.
This one has a littlecar.
This one has a little star.
Say! What a lot of fish there are.
Yes. Some are red, and some are blue.
Some are old and some are new.
Some are sad, and some are glad,
And some are very, very bad.
Why are they sad and glad and bad?
I do not know, go ask your dad.
Some are thin, and some are fat.
The fat one has a yellow hat.
From there to here,
From here to there,
Funny things are everywhere.
-Dr. Dre
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Black fish, Blue fish, Old fish, New fish.
This one has a littlecar.
This one has a little star.
Say! What a lot of fish there are.
Yes. Some are red, and some are blue.
Some are old and some are new.
Some are sad, and some are glad,
And some are very, very bad.
Why are they sad and glad and bad?
I do not know, go ask your dad.
Some are thin, and some are fat.
The fat one has a yellow hat.
From there to here,
From here to there,
Funny things are everywhere.
-Dr. Dre
reply
Illusion-XIII
Select whatever hobby or interest you have. The same question could easily be asked by anyone who doesn't share that interest. Does it really matter?
Ultimately, in this context, understanding how tiny fish brains process quantities can help build a better understanding of the behavior of non-sentient life (i. e. everything that's not us, and that can impact many areas of scientific research.
Does an apple falling really matter? By itself, no, but there would be no space program without it.
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Select whatever hobby or interest you have. The same question could easily be asked by anyone who doesn't share that interest. Does it really matter?
Ultimately, in this context, understanding how tiny fish brains process quantities can help build a better understanding of the behavior of non-sentient life (i. e. everything that's not us, and that can impact many areas of scientific research.
Does an apple falling really matter? By itself, no, but there would be no space program without it.
reply
pillsburied
They may have been synonymous at one time, but one can be confident that current usage in the field of biology is more precise than would have been the case in the 16th century, and would certainly supersede it.
I do not propose to dispute the accuracy of the great Oxford English Dictionary, but in any field, I give greater weight to a relevant textbook than to a dictionary definition.
I don't have that textbook on hand, but I trust that the editors of the Wikipedia used it appropriately.
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They may have been synonymous at one time, but one can be confident that current usage in the field of biology is more precise than would have been the case in the 16th century, and would certainly supersede it.
I do not propose to dispute the accuracy of the great Oxford English Dictionary, but in any field, I give greater weight to a relevant textbook than to a dictionary definition.
I don't have that textbook on hand, but I trust that the editors of the Wikipedia used it appropriately.
reply
Emily
Wouldn't the experiment be much more controllable if they used fake fish? They would be able to change the density of the school at will as well as eliminate any non-visual forms of communication.
I think most fish should be easily fooled because they recognize individuals and situations by just a few key stimuli. Famously, a male stickleback during mating season recognizes the female by her green and red colors, and will just as well try to fertilize any prop, as long as its colors are similar.
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Wouldn't the experiment be much more controllable if they used fake fish? They would be able to change the density of the school at will as well as eliminate any non-visual forms of communication.
I think most fish should be easily fooled because they recognize individuals and situations by just a few key stimuli. Famously, a male stickleback during mating season recognizes the female by her green and red colors, and will just as well try to fertilize any prop, as long as its colors are similar.
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Jan
why have people flagged apburner1 comment as spam, apburner1 logic is sound, even though he happens to be wrong:
premise 1) numberphile is high quality
premise 2) most high quality content is scripted
conclusion: high probability of being scripted
For every time I click the -flag as spam- button I click the -not spam- button 10 times. Please folks join me in my righteous campaign to only mark spam as spam: )
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why have people flagged apburner1 comment as spam, apburner1 logic is sound, even though he happens to be wrong:
premise 1) numberphile is high quality
premise 2) most high quality content is scripted
conclusion: high probability of being scripted
For every time I click the -flag as spam- button I click the -not spam- button 10 times. Please folks join me in my righteous campaign to only mark spam as spam: )
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Rob
Scientists don't. This is not a scholarly interview. Fishes sense their near environment through a mixed set of sensors, depending on the range and species. You are correct, not only sight, they have been shown to have an acute sense of smell as well as a complex system to detect pressure along an organ known as the 'lateral' line that runs along the body and connects to the brain.
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Scientists don't. This is not a scholarly interview. Fishes sense their near environment through a mixed set of sensors, depending on the range and species. You are correct, not only sight, they have been shown to have an acute sense of smell as well as a complex system to detect pressure along an organ known as the 'lateral' line that runs along the body and connects to the brain.
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education
What if you put a greater number of fish on one side of the tank, and a smaller number of same-sized fish on the other side with a substantially smaller volume. The second side would have a greater density of fish and therefore might potentially seem -safer-. This might help to determine if the fish are attracted to the numerosity or simple to the density.
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What if you put a greater number of fish on one side of the tank, and a smaller number of same-sized fish on the other side with a substantially smaller volume. The second side would have a greater density of fish and therefore might potentially seem -safer-. This might help to determine if the fish are attracted to the numerosity or simple to the density.
reply
Michael
First knowledge is communicated, when I tell my dog to turn on a light or tell him I don't want to get a treat he understands completely and will turn on the light or will get himself a treat. second I don't think that knowledge being transferred is a requirement of talking, one could be talking to themselves, one could be talking to no one.
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First knowledge is communicated, when I tell my dog to turn on a light or tell him I don't want to get a treat he understands completely and will turn on the light or will get himself a treat. second I don't think that knowledge being transferred is a requirement of talking, one could be talking to themselves, one could be talking to no one.
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