Loki Made Avengers: Endgame a 100x Better Movie!
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Firstly, it's stated in Endgame that you cannot change the past, you can only go back and create branching realities. Thus, their time travel device must also let them travel between branches similarly to the TVA devices. Otherwise, they would go back in time and only be able to go forward to that branching reality's future. -
Of course, given what the TVA has done in Loki, it still seems strange that they wouldn't arrest the Avengers for doing time travel, because as Loki stated, they are causing branches. This video states that maybe it is because the Avengers had no intention to cause branches, and wanted to return the stones. Yet, they failed. Loki escaped and it was their fault. -
That being said, many theorize that this time travel is allowed because Stark creating a way to navigate the time streams is what allows He Who Remains to rise above the other Kangs, and thus must happen. As such, the TVA instead just prunes every single branch timeline that the time travel causes and they call it a day, which helps to explain why the TVA gets their hands on so many infinity stones. -
Side note - this -must happen- idea could suggest that the events of Endgame are an Absolute Point, as referenced in the Doctor Strange episode of What If. So if the TVA were to arrest the Avengers for time traveling, they would ultimately destroy all of existence. Unfortunately, that whole premise doesn-t quite make sense - at least without some extra work. In Endgame it is explicitly stated that you cannot change the past, you can only create branching realities. So pretty much everything would be an Absolute Point, but it wouldn-t matter because you can-t change the past anyways. Therefore, no universes would ever die due to a paradox. My first instinct was that the -universe collapsing- in that episode was the TVA at work, which it could be, though I-m quite certain that this takes place after Loki, and therefore after the branching begins. An alternate hypothesis is simply that by using the time stone you can actually alter the past. I believe that makes sense, as the time stone can also be used on distinct objects. That being said it's not very clear either way. -
Worse yet, in Endgame, Captain America goes back in time to place the stones back where they belong. Since the navigation device must allow them to navigate between timelines, this shouldn-t be a problem at all. However, by this point the TVA would have already pruned that timeline. So where does he go? -
And then he shows back up in the present day as an old guy without using the time machine. Doesn-t that mean he changed the past? He broke all the rules. Unless of course he used the time stone. But then wouldn-t the TVA have pruned him? -
I had two theories. -
1: The Captain America we see after he time travels is a Steve Rogers from a different timeline, and the Steve Rogers that time traveled lived his life in another timeline. -
2: He always traveled back in time and lived his life with Peggy, therefore nothing in the timeline changed. -
Yet, my second theory only holds water if he used the time stone, as he would need to have the ability to go back in time in the same timeline without creating a branch, which - as stated multiple times - should be impossible. He could have used the time stone. He had it on him. Though I doubt he knows how to use it, so this theory is pretty shit. -
The first theory worked fine until Loki. Because now we know that all branches are pruned. So Steve would-ve been pruned no matter what. -
Thus a third theory. As we see the timelines in the last episode of Loki, the Sacred Timeline doesn-t seem to be one timeline, but a bunch of parallel timelines, all similar and varying an insignificant amount. Thus, the Captain America from the main timeline travels to a parallel timeline and we never see him again. And, around the time that Captain America disappeared in the MCU, a Captain America from a different timeline appears in our timeline, who then ages and shows himself after our Captain America leaves. Thus forming a time loop sort of thing. Though it still feels rather paradoxical as we are not allowed to change the past. Additionally, this past Captain America needs to be very discreet about existing, or he would basically cease the forming of the Avengers. So I remain unsatisfied. How would he have returned the stones to pruned timelines? How did he not get pruned himself? Did the TVA wait to prune something until he left? Did they create false realities just for him to replace the stones? -
It used to piss me off because this plot hole could-ve been entirely avoided by showing him using the time machine to return as an old man. Though I guess that wouldn-t have made much sense in terms of motivation, and with the introduction of Loki, he still would-ve been pruned. I guess the best way to suspend my disbelief is just to say that he actually did encounter the TVA, and they let him do his thing before putting him back into his original reality just before he has his talk with Falcon - which would cause a branch reality of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but I guess the TVA gets to be the authority on that so they would just let it happen. Though as for how that would affect Steve- hard to say.
Date: 2022-06-24
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Comments and reviews: 9
ThereIsDanger
I dont think any event before endgame was done with free will, because when loki got arrested he who remains was alive. Yes killing him can affect the past but it will only create branches in the past, but the mcu can be in one of the branches that happened after endgame not before.
Here is my theory in chronological order:
A man in 31st century discovered the multiverse but so did the other versions of himself from different universes. They started a war since some of them wanted to conquer all realities. One of the variants ended this multiversal war and scripted the entire multiverse to 1 single timeline where all universes follow the scripted events. He was actually going to let Tony Stark die in infinity war but he needed to change the script. Because he knew 1 day he would be bored of this and ask a Loki variant to take his place. For this Loki variant he needed the avengers time travel and make a mistake to later let loki escape. But the avengers need tony stark to time travel so he changed the script to let them time travel. The tva probably reset the timeline where Thanos traveled to the future but the reason they didnt do that before he time traveled is because Tony needs to die eventually. He who remains know that if Tony is kept alive he will cause a multiversal war because him and other versions of himself will discover other universes. He who remains probably scripted the nexus event Sylvie caused as well. The tva doesnt have free will, everything is scripted, only person who has free will is the one scripting it. As he who remains said, every step they took to get there, he planned it. But his script ended at a point because at that moment he wanted to give Sylvie and Loki free will to take his place or kill him. Sylvie didnt believe he who remains and killed him. This caused infinite amount of branches in all universes and timelines because now everyone has free will. Since the tva exists outside of the timeline, in that time a version of he who remains (probably kang the conqueror) took over the tva and cleared everyones memories and built a statue of himself. These branches caused the events of What If and now in No Way Home and in Multiverse of Madness it gave doctor strange free will to cast spells or open portals to other universes. The other spiderman universes were probably branches that happened so early in the timeline that it caused completely different events to happen like no avengers. I also think that in the mcu celestials arent above he who remains, in the comics they are multiversal but when arishem talks to sersi he says our universe as if they only exist in that reality. He who remains probably doesnt have priority above the watcher but he doesnt need to since the watcher never interferes anyway.
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I dont think any event before endgame was done with free will, because when loki got arrested he who remains was alive. Yes killing him can affect the past but it will only create branches in the past, but the mcu can be in one of the branches that happened after endgame not before.
Here is my theory in chronological order:
A man in 31st century discovered the multiverse but so did the other versions of himself from different universes. They started a war since some of them wanted to conquer all realities. One of the variants ended this multiversal war and scripted the entire multiverse to 1 single timeline where all universes follow the scripted events. He was actually going to let Tony Stark die in infinity war but he needed to change the script. Because he knew 1 day he would be bored of this and ask a Loki variant to take his place. For this Loki variant he needed the avengers time travel and make a mistake to later let loki escape. But the avengers need tony stark to time travel so he changed the script to let them time travel. The tva probably reset the timeline where Thanos traveled to the future but the reason they didnt do that before he time traveled is because Tony needs to die eventually. He who remains know that if Tony is kept alive he will cause a multiversal war because him and other versions of himself will discover other universes. He who remains probably scripted the nexus event Sylvie caused as well. The tva doesnt have free will, everything is scripted, only person who has free will is the one scripting it. As he who remains said, every step they took to get there, he planned it. But his script ended at a point because at that moment he wanted to give Sylvie and Loki free will to take his place or kill him. Sylvie didnt believe he who remains and killed him. This caused infinite amount of branches in all universes and timelines because now everyone has free will. Since the tva exists outside of the timeline, in that time a version of he who remains (probably kang the conqueror) took over the tva and cleared everyones memories and built a statue of himself. These branches caused the events of What If and now in No Way Home and in Multiverse of Madness it gave doctor strange free will to cast spells or open portals to other universes. The other spiderman universes were probably branches that happened so early in the timeline that it caused completely different events to happen like no avengers. I also think that in the mcu celestials arent above he who remains, in the comics they are multiversal but when arishem talks to sersi he says our universe as if they only exist in that reality. He who remains probably doesnt have priority above the watcher but he doesnt need to since the watcher never interferes anyway.
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Raenir
One thing to note of course is the TVA pruning timelines is slightly -selfish-, they explain its about maintaining a -sacred- timeline, but in reality the point is to stop a parallel evil variant of Kang from coming to exist and causing unparalleled multiversal destruction. The events of the MCU are being engineered by Kang to prevent a -specific- game over outcome from occurring (and a few other close calls like Ultron. The TVA never arrests the avengers because retrieving the stones from the past, stopping Thanos, undoing the snap, etc, were all -desirable- actions from Kang's perspective to stop Evil Kang from existing. Because presumably in all of those other 16 million possible futures where Thanos or someone else wins, a subset of them results in Evil Kang.
It isn't that branching timelines are bad and must be pruned, branching timelines are pruned because they lead to a result that is in Kang's -opinion- is bad. If the resulting branch was -better- from Kang's perspective than they would have pruned something else.
I'm not sure if He Who Remains is specifically a fan of Stark/Iron man anymore than Stark/Banner are fans of Einstein, remember He Who Remains lives 1000 years in the future. But Iron Man as we see in What If is fairly essentially for the -good- outcomes the timeline branches into.
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One thing to note of course is the TVA pruning timelines is slightly -selfish-, they explain its about maintaining a -sacred- timeline, but in reality the point is to stop a parallel evil variant of Kang from coming to exist and causing unparalleled multiversal destruction. The events of the MCU are being engineered by Kang to prevent a -specific- game over outcome from occurring (and a few other close calls like Ultron. The TVA never arrests the avengers because retrieving the stones from the past, stopping Thanos, undoing the snap, etc, were all -desirable- actions from Kang's perspective to stop Evil Kang from existing. Because presumably in all of those other 16 million possible futures where Thanos or someone else wins, a subset of them results in Evil Kang.
It isn't that branching timelines are bad and must be pruned, branching timelines are pruned because they lead to a result that is in Kang's -opinion- is bad. If the resulting branch was -better- from Kang's perspective than they would have pruned something else.
I'm not sure if He Who Remains is specifically a fan of Stark/Iron man anymore than Stark/Banner are fans of Einstein, remember He Who Remains lives 1000 years in the future. But Iron Man as we see in What If is fairly essentially for the -good- outcomes the timeline branches into.
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Kompatybilijny
When TVA -Erases- a timeline, I do not think they are actually erasing it from existence. I think, that they just make sure that this new reality follows a path that DOES NOT create a Kang that will be evil, or a path does not create a Kang at all. I mean, think about it. How is it possible for all the differents Loki variants to exist in the first place? Gator Loki, black guy-traitor Loki and so on would have been erased immediatly when they first appeared, not after some arbitrary event. No, they were not erased, because their universes did not lead to an evil Kang initially, but once they did some shit that made the timeline lead to an evil Kang, they got erased immediately. That's also why you can do anything during a disaster that leads to the death of everyone present. Because changing ANYTHING, even a position, even a quantum state of ONE particle creates a new timeline/universe. It does not matter, because what happens during disasters so close to the (potential) birth of Kang does not matter at all (the butterfly effect does not have enough time to affect him in a meaningful way, so the new realities are allowed to exist.
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When TVA -Erases- a timeline, I do not think they are actually erasing it from existence. I think, that they just make sure that this new reality follows a path that DOES NOT create a Kang that will be evil, or a path does not create a Kang at all. I mean, think about it. How is it possible for all the differents Loki variants to exist in the first place? Gator Loki, black guy-traitor Loki and so on would have been erased immediatly when they first appeared, not after some arbitrary event. No, they were not erased, because their universes did not lead to an evil Kang initially, but once they did some shit that made the timeline lead to an evil Kang, they got erased immediately. That's also why you can do anything during a disaster that leads to the death of everyone present. Because changing ANYTHING, even a position, even a quantum state of ONE particle creates a new timeline/universe. It does not matter, because what happens during disasters so close to the (potential) birth of Kang does not matter at all (the butterfly effect does not have enough time to affect him in a meaningful way, so the new realities are allowed to exist.
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Pallav
Kang wanted Tony and didn't also.
Tony in most timelines died as we know, because he is one of the most noticable being on universe. Even tho he's just a tiny man, his ability to think 10 steps ahead than anybody makes him one of the most fear being on existence. He has the presence, that Thanos had took notice of, means a big thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one to first make Time Travel happen in the whole universe. And that's why Kang wanted him to live to that point only where he dies just after he makes the time machine. So that Tony cannot explore further possibility into it, and found out about sacred timeline and Kang, and Tony would never agree to being under no choice and would stop Kang.
But Irony is for Kang, that he didn't saw coming which is Loki was something that initiated by Tony's hand. A coincidence or A masterpiece.
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Kang wanted Tony and didn't also.
Tony in most timelines died as we know, because he is one of the most noticable being on universe. Even tho he's just a tiny man, his ability to think 10 steps ahead than anybody makes him one of the most fear being on existence. He has the presence, that Thanos had took notice of, means a big thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one to first make Time Travel happen in the whole universe. And that's why Kang wanted him to live to that point only where he dies just after he makes the time machine. So that Tony cannot explore further possibility into it, and found out about sacred timeline and Kang, and Tony would never agree to being under no choice and would stop Kang.
But Irony is for Kang, that he didn't saw coming which is Loki was something that initiated by Tony's hand. A coincidence or A masterpiece.
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Nour
we all know and hate tony starks death but it happened on purpose if we watch what if tony starks death has to happen in every single universe because in avengers endgame tony stark found out how to time travel if tony never died he would possibly do the exact same thing kang did, in epode 6 of Loki kang explains how he fixed the multiverse and ended the miniversal war, if tony didn't died he would achieved the same thing kang did and take over. let me know what you think about this theory guys i know its random but just let me know.
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we all know and hate tony starks death but it happened on purpose if we watch what if tony starks death has to happen in every single universe because in avengers endgame tony stark found out how to time travel if tony never died he would possibly do the exact same thing kang did, in epode 6 of Loki kang explains how he fixed the multiverse and ended the miniversal war, if tony didn't died he would achieved the same thing kang did and take over. let me know what you think about this theory guys i know its random but just let me know.
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Yunior
It's easy to be mislead by concept art, because rarely you get at what point of production was done such piece of concept art. When you get asked to do a concept art piece, you get some guidelines, but those are open to certain level of freedom in the early stages of productions. Freedom to explore ideas that come mainly from the Concept Artists themselves. The Iron Man's helmet could've been just the concept artist idea and nothing that was significant or meaningful to the plot, hence why we didn't really see it on the show.
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It's easy to be mislead by concept art, because rarely you get at what point of production was done such piece of concept art. When you get asked to do a concept art piece, you get some guidelines, but those are open to certain level of freedom in the early stages of productions. Freedom to explore ideas that come mainly from the Concept Artists themselves. The Iron Man's helmet could've been just the concept artist idea and nothing that was significant or meaningful to the plot, hence why we didn't really see it on the show.
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Medbread
He Who Remains doesn't keep the MCU as sacred timeline because he's a fan of the Avengers. I thought it was pretty obvious that the MCU timeline is the Sacred timeline because it's He Who Remains's timeline. It's his home timeline. He mentions that there was a multiversal war between different versions of him, but he won out. He knows the order of events that are supposed to happen up until the point when Loki and Sylvie meet him because he knows the history of his own timeline.
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He Who Remains doesn't keep the MCU as sacred timeline because he's a fan of the Avengers. I thought it was pretty obvious that the MCU timeline is the Sacred timeline because it's He Who Remains's timeline. It's his home timeline. He mentions that there was a multiversal war between different versions of him, but he won out. He knows the order of events that are supposed to happen up until the point when Loki and Sylvie meet him because he knows the history of his own timeline.
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Catbird
My interpretation is that before He Who Remains dies, there were already multiple alternate universes. The TVA was just making sure they all stay within a reasonable range of variation. Hence why the Avengers could tamper with another universe without causing a branch.
And as soon as He Who Remains dies, all universes are freed from their shackles, meaning that they suddenly do exist without any before or after, each with its own billions of years of history.
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My interpretation is that before He Who Remains dies, there were already multiple alternate universes. The TVA was just making sure they all stay within a reasonable range of variation. Hence why the Avengers could tamper with another universe without causing a branch.
And as soon as He Who Remains dies, all universes are freed from their shackles, meaning that they suddenly do exist without any before or after, each with its own billions of years of history.
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ArnoldXD
How can more of he who remains come up when the main branch is the only branch up until he dies.
For example there cant be more of him that are different in any way at before the branch splits. basically he will always be the one and only until the nexus event. And he lost his power to predict anything when loki arrived. So how could more of him branching form that point in time be relevant. (it does not change the past of thing that have already happened)
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How can more of he who remains come up when the main branch is the only branch up until he dies.
For example there cant be more of him that are different in any way at before the branch splits. basically he will always be the one and only until the nexus event. And he lost his power to predict anything when loki arrived. So how could more of him branching form that point in time be relevant. (it does not change the past of thing that have already happened)
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