Liberals, Conservatives, and Pride and Prejudice, Part 2: Crash Course Literature 412
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Date: 2022-04-04
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Comments and reviews: 10
PABadger13
To me, the most consistently intelligent, mature, and respectable character in the novel isn't Elizabeth (who thinks for herself, and falls for a con man, isn't Darcy (who has all the wealth and sticks his nose up at anything beneath him, isn't Lady Catherine (who has all the breeding and none of the humanity, and isn't even Collins (the clergyman and toady. Collectively, it's the Gardiners, who are supposed to be hopelessly vulgar. Mr. Gardiner works for a living; he's a businessman who lives (and probably works) in the City of London in the financial district. Being -in trade- (as several characters bring up, he actually does the day to day business of, well, running a business. He's not rich; he and his wife are comfortably dead center of the middle class; able to take vacations, but having to change their vacation plans because of the needs of business. In a time period when the entire point of the upper middle class and the upper class is to not work, to never work, to pay servants and -men of business- to do the work for you, anyone who worked, even with an account book, was seen as vulgar. And yet, Gardiner and his wife are the kindest, friendliest, and most respectable people in the whole book. Their marriage is strong; they love and respect each other. When Lydia runs off, the Gardiners take over the roles that Mr. and Mrs. Bennett should be taking; taking care of the other girls, and trying to track down and protect Lydia. They don't spend time bemoaning the situtation, or wave at a solution; they take care of the problem. Taking care of the problem would stretch their resources and means, could even risk bankruptcy or damage to their reputations (which are absolutely essential for Gardiner to DO HIS JOB, to say nothing of taking care of his own children's future, but they do it anyway. Of course, it turns out they had a guardian angel standing behind them, but had Darcy not intervened. things could have ended very, very badly for everyone.
In short, the middle of the middle class models the behavior that the rest of characters, that the rest of England, should try to match.
This is a very radical thought for the time. Yes, it is a very middle class ideology and a very middle class model for behavior, but remember that the middle class was itself a radical idea bought on by the industrial revolution. The idea that working people could think and reason for themselves, that they could identify and model moral and ethical behavior, and not be lead by the aristocrats and upper classes like cattle, was revolutionary. The idea that they could intermingle and intermarry with the upper classes and the whole house wouldn't burn down, was revolutionary.
So, yeah. For it's time, this book is pretty far left of center.
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To me, the most consistently intelligent, mature, and respectable character in the novel isn't Elizabeth (who thinks for herself, and falls for a con man, isn't Darcy (who has all the wealth and sticks his nose up at anything beneath him, isn't Lady Catherine (who has all the breeding and none of the humanity, and isn't even Collins (the clergyman and toady. Collectively, it's the Gardiners, who are supposed to be hopelessly vulgar. Mr. Gardiner works for a living; he's a businessman who lives (and probably works) in the City of London in the financial district. Being -in trade- (as several characters bring up, he actually does the day to day business of, well, running a business. He's not rich; he and his wife are comfortably dead center of the middle class; able to take vacations, but having to change their vacation plans because of the needs of business. In a time period when the entire point of the upper middle class and the upper class is to not work, to never work, to pay servants and -men of business- to do the work for you, anyone who worked, even with an account book, was seen as vulgar. And yet, Gardiner and his wife are the kindest, friendliest, and most respectable people in the whole book. Their marriage is strong; they love and respect each other. When Lydia runs off, the Gardiners take over the roles that Mr. and Mrs. Bennett should be taking; taking care of the other girls, and trying to track down and protect Lydia. They don't spend time bemoaning the situtation, or wave at a solution; they take care of the problem. Taking care of the problem would stretch their resources and means, could even risk bankruptcy or damage to their reputations (which are absolutely essential for Gardiner to DO HIS JOB, to say nothing of taking care of his own children's future, but they do it anyway. Of course, it turns out they had a guardian angel standing behind them, but had Darcy not intervened. things could have ended very, very badly for everyone.
In short, the middle of the middle class models the behavior that the rest of characters, that the rest of England, should try to match.
This is a very radical thought for the time. Yes, it is a very middle class ideology and a very middle class model for behavior, but remember that the middle class was itself a radical idea bought on by the industrial revolution. The idea that working people could think and reason for themselves, that they could identify and model moral and ethical behavior, and not be lead by the aristocrats and upper classes like cattle, was revolutionary. The idea that they could intermingle and intermarry with the upper classes and the whole house wouldn't burn down, was revolutionary.
So, yeah. For it's time, this book is pretty far left of center.
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Han
Hmmm. While I'm not entirely certain I agree with the idea that Elizabeth's awe for Pemberly as an estate in itself was a main factor in her kindling of respect for Darcy, I do think it has merit. For starters, by having his estate so laudably approved of, it's like a slap to the face foreshadowing for Elizabeth's soon-to-be deepening of feelings for him reflected in his property. It also symbolises some basics; that Darcy takes care of living, growing things without hindering them (although it seems a bit maudlin to compare Elizabeth to a few nice hedges. He cares for nature and the natural, something of which his own prejudice struggles to find reflected in his personal life before he meets Elizabeth. Because at this point in the book his feelings are well established, and Elizabeth's have been shifting for a while now, it lets the reader know he is ready for this for real this time and that Elizabeth is almost there too. However, I think another interpretation (because isn't it wonderful that we can understand so many different things from one another and still be talking about the same content) that I like is that Pemberly is less of a reflection of economy and the idea that rich people are the most happy, but more that characters we as readers like (not always, such as with Lady Catherine and Whickam to a certain extent) should be rewarded for being true to their virtues through hardship and true feelings while still maintaining good sense. For example, Jane. Many think she is disingenuous, and she pays the price for this, risking her fair share of potential financial repercussions by being unable to 'snag' Bingly, as well as the very real heartbreak she tries to deny. She is rewarded for this by ending up with a happy ending. Meanwhile, Lydia, Charlotte and even Mr Bennet have all ended up in loveless marriages due to frivolity, harming a dear friendship, and vanity, respectively. Lydia suffers by getting segregated from her family for her shame, Charlotte has to deal with the insufferable likes of Mr Collins and Lady Catherine for the rest of her life and distancing her best friend (despite no doubt getting a boon from Mr Bennet's death later in life, and Mr Bennet becomes a haphazard father who wastes his time tutting at his children instead of parenting them. Mr Bennet especially serves as a contrast to Lydia and Charlotte, becomes it gives them a glimpse of what happens as a result of a loveless marriage. It is because of this it seems to me that Elizabeth and Jane becoming some of the richest of all the characters in the novel feels like smug, well-earned satisfaction. They, after all, get a true happy after, obtaining what the others value most and still maintaining their dignity- love, respect and wealth.
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Hmmm. While I'm not entirely certain I agree with the idea that Elizabeth's awe for Pemberly as an estate in itself was a main factor in her kindling of respect for Darcy, I do think it has merit. For starters, by having his estate so laudably approved of, it's like a slap to the face foreshadowing for Elizabeth's soon-to-be deepening of feelings for him reflected in his property. It also symbolises some basics; that Darcy takes care of living, growing things without hindering them (although it seems a bit maudlin to compare Elizabeth to a few nice hedges. He cares for nature and the natural, something of which his own prejudice struggles to find reflected in his personal life before he meets Elizabeth. Because at this point in the book his feelings are well established, and Elizabeth's have been shifting for a while now, it lets the reader know he is ready for this for real this time and that Elizabeth is almost there too. However, I think another interpretation (because isn't it wonderful that we can understand so many different things from one another and still be talking about the same content) that I like is that Pemberly is less of a reflection of economy and the idea that rich people are the most happy, but more that characters we as readers like (not always, such as with Lady Catherine and Whickam to a certain extent) should be rewarded for being true to their virtues through hardship and true feelings while still maintaining good sense. For example, Jane. Many think she is disingenuous, and she pays the price for this, risking her fair share of potential financial repercussions by being unable to 'snag' Bingly, as well as the very real heartbreak she tries to deny. She is rewarded for this by ending up with a happy ending. Meanwhile, Lydia, Charlotte and even Mr Bennet have all ended up in loveless marriages due to frivolity, harming a dear friendship, and vanity, respectively. Lydia suffers by getting segregated from her family for her shame, Charlotte has to deal with the insufferable likes of Mr Collins and Lady Catherine for the rest of her life and distancing her best friend (despite no doubt getting a boon from Mr Bennet's death later in life, and Mr Bennet becomes a haphazard father who wastes his time tutting at his children instead of parenting them. Mr Bennet especially serves as a contrast to Lydia and Charlotte, becomes it gives them a glimpse of what happens as a result of a loveless marriage. It is because of this it seems to me that Elizabeth and Jane becoming some of the richest of all the characters in the novel feels like smug, well-earned satisfaction. They, after all, get a true happy after, obtaining what the others value most and still maintaining their dignity- love, respect and wealth.
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Nikki
Elizabeth sees Pemberly's beauty and realizes just how rich Darcy is. At this point she also realizes that someone as rich as him might actually have a right to be prideful among lower class people. It helps her understand his pride that he has displayed earlier, but at the same time she finds that he is actually really nice to lower class people such as his servants and her aunt and uncle, meaning that perhaps he isn't as prideful as she once thought. Visiting Pemberly alone doesn't help her see this though, the letter does too, and she sees that even though Mr. Wickham really wronged him, Darcy never told her when he had the opportunity to because that's just not who he is. Mr. Wickham took every chance he had to speak poorly of Mr. Darcy even when it was all completely false but Darcy never did the same even though he definitely had more of a right to speak poorly of Wickham. She was able to look back on their conversation and understand his nature more clearly.
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Elizabeth sees Pemberly's beauty and realizes just how rich Darcy is. At this point she also realizes that someone as rich as him might actually have a right to be prideful among lower class people. It helps her understand his pride that he has displayed earlier, but at the same time she finds that he is actually really nice to lower class people such as his servants and her aunt and uncle, meaning that perhaps he isn't as prideful as she once thought. Visiting Pemberly alone doesn't help her see this though, the letter does too, and she sees that even though Mr. Wickham really wronged him, Darcy never told her when he had the opportunity to because that's just not who he is. Mr. Wickham took every chance he had to speak poorly of Mr. Darcy even when it was all completely false but Darcy never did the same even though he definitely had more of a right to speak poorly of Wickham. She was able to look back on their conversation and understand his nature more clearly.
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frutrace
Just a quick clarification on the characters' finances. Georgianna's 30, 000 pounds was a lump sum dowry that would've been invested at 5% per annum, giving a yearly income of 1, 500 pounds, which is less than Mr's Bennet's income, but still a very comfortable income. Women's inheritances were always discussed as lump sums, while men's finances were always given as yearly incomes. Also, to put those figures in perspective, it is estimated that a yearly income of at least 700 pounds would be needed to afford to keep a horse. The Dashwood ladies struggle to get by on 300 pounds a year in Sense and Sensibility. So the Bennet sisters' dowries amounting to 40 pounds per year was abject poverty.
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Just a quick clarification on the characters' finances. Georgianna's 30, 000 pounds was a lump sum dowry that would've been invested at 5% per annum, giving a yearly income of 1, 500 pounds, which is less than Mr's Bennet's income, but still a very comfortable income. Women's inheritances were always discussed as lump sums, while men's finances were always given as yearly incomes. Also, to put those figures in perspective, it is estimated that a yearly income of at least 700 pounds would be needed to afford to keep a horse. The Dashwood ladies struggle to get by on 300 pounds a year in Sense and Sensibility. So the Bennet sisters' dowries amounting to 40 pounds per year was abject poverty.
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ErnestPiffel
Thanks John Green. I really hate terms like 'chick flick'. Half the population are women and most of us are bored stiff of meaningless car chases and alien invasions. Yet Sci-Fi and James Bond are considered credible genres whereas books about relationships are too often discarded. Nothing wrong with a well-scripted movie about human emotions.
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Thanks John Green. I really hate terms like 'chick flick'. Half the population are women and most of us are bored stiff of meaningless car chases and alien invasions. Yet Sci-Fi and James Bond are considered credible genres whereas books about relationships are too often discarded. Nothing wrong with a well-scripted movie about human emotions.
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AxelQC
For women in the novel, it wasn't about materialism, but about security. A spinster with no money was a beggar, like Miss Bates in Emma. Like the sisters in Sense & Sensibility, they needed to be well wed or live a life of poverty or life off the kindness of relatives.
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For women in the novel, it wasn't about materialism, but about security. A spinster with no money was a beggar, like Miss Bates in Emma. Like the sisters in Sense & Sensibility, they needed to be well wed or live a life of poverty or life off the kindness of relatives.
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sebeckley
John doesn't mention the important point that it's only the description of Darcy's character from the servants at Pemberley that make her really consider him. And, a woman couldn't overtly show anyone that she likes someone or she could dent her reputation.
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John doesn't mention the important point that it's only the description of Darcy's character from the servants at Pemberley that make her really consider him. And, a woman couldn't overtly show anyone that she likes someone or she could dent her reputation.
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Thomas
When is this series coming back? The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, The Red Badge of Courage, Absolom Absolom or The Sound and Fury, Ulysses, On The Road, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Moon Palace, A Streetcar Called Desire, The Scarlet Letter.
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When is this series coming back? The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, The Red Badge of Courage, Absolom Absolom or The Sound and Fury, Ulysses, On The Road, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Moon Palace, A Streetcar Called Desire, The Scarlet Letter.
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alg11297
This was a tough book to get through. But there are mentions of many kinds of card games this idle class keeps playing. And then again, how can you get away with a main character without a first name (Mr. Darcy)
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This was a tough book to get through. But there are mentions of many kinds of card games this idle class keeps playing. And then again, how can you get away with a main character without a first name (Mr. Darcy)
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marinette
I was reading the comments and someone mentioned Edgar Allan Poe and my first thought was -do it. Do IT! I dare you! -Then casually mention the orangatan.
(Chortles in the background)
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I was reading the comments and someone mentioned Edgar Allan Poe and my first thought was -do it. Do IT! I dare you! -Then casually mention the orangatan.
(Chortles in the background)
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