SideWinder Force Feedback Pro 26 Years Later
video description
It really truly baffles me that nobody is making these, or supporting these in games anymore. They added so much immersion to games, and there are tons of games out there now that could benefit from it (like Elite: Dangerous, No Man's Sky, and Star Citizen just to name a few. But the only option now seems to be really expensive HOTAS, or really flimsy affairs that start to drift the moment you take them out of the box.
Date: 2023-07-21
Related videos
Comments and reviews: 19
DR.
Holy. The force feedback on that thing is something special. You basically need to bolt it to the table with how much of a kick it can give. The way the force feedback works is very clever and very similar to how the haptic feedback works in modern controllers. The PlayStation 5 controller in particular shows the haptic motors as a sound device to your computer. Games can control the motors by sending sound through them. (And yes, with a little tweaking you can use them as a sound device and feel the music) Very similar to how this SideWinder controller uses MIDI to control the motors.
These force feedback devices don't translate to video well. You really need to try one yourself to really experience what these things are like. Find a local arcade that still has some 90s Sega racing games for the best experience. They went mad with the force feedback on those.
reply
Holy. The force feedback on that thing is something special. You basically need to bolt it to the table with how much of a kick it can give. The way the force feedback works is very clever and very similar to how the haptic feedback works in modern controllers. The PlayStation 5 controller in particular shows the haptic motors as a sound device to your computer. Games can control the motors by sending sound through them. (And yes, with a little tweaking you can use them as a sound device and feel the music) Very similar to how this SideWinder controller uses MIDI to control the motors.
These force feedback devices don't translate to video well. You really need to try one yourself to really experience what these things are like. Find a local arcade that still has some 90s Sega racing games for the best experience. They went mad with the force feedback on those.
reply
No
It may be a good joystick. It may even be a great joystick, but I would never own one. The reason why is the company that made it.
Do average people really like Microsoft? I'm thinking no. Microsoft has done so much over its history to generate so much ill will towards them. Even back in 1997, they were already pretty high on the hate list.
This also extends to today, where Microsoft Edge has about 5% of the browser market share, despite Microsoft's incessant nagging. Their Xbox is ranking 3rd among the big 3 game consoles. It turns out that when you force the majority of people to use your operating system, by way of exclusive software support and other monopolistic practices, you cause those same people you've basically trapped to hate you and anything that you sell, regardless of whatever merits the products might have on their own.
reply
It may be a good joystick. It may even be a great joystick, but I would never own one. The reason why is the company that made it.
Do average people really like Microsoft? I'm thinking no. Microsoft has done so much over its history to generate so much ill will towards them. Even back in 1997, they were already pretty high on the hate list.
This also extends to today, where Microsoft Edge has about 5% of the browser market share, despite Microsoft's incessant nagging. Their Xbox is ranking 3rd among the big 3 game consoles. It turns out that when you force the majority of people to use your operating system, by way of exclusive software support and other monopolistic practices, you cause those same people you've basically trapped to hate you and anything that you sell, regardless of whatever merits the products might have on their own.
reply
Jared
I had this joystick. I used it so much the DC jack eventually failed. I ended up purchasing a Force Feedback 2 to replace it. The Force Feedback 2 I think had a lot of improvements over the original. Smaller motors that provided just as good force. USB connection which was more compatible as the MIDI port started disappearing (The original MSFF didn't work on a game port, it had to be a MIDI port. Biggest advantage of all was the integration of the power supply which used a Figure Eight power cord. The power connector was more robust and the cord easily replaced off-the-shelf. You lost the shift button which created a second layer of controls while held. I also liked the throttle wheel over the little lever the FF2 used. The FF2 had the same infrared beam at the front to turn off the motors when your hand let go. I still have my FF2.
reply
I had this joystick. I used it so much the DC jack eventually failed. I ended up purchasing a Force Feedback 2 to replace it. The Force Feedback 2 I think had a lot of improvements over the original. Smaller motors that provided just as good force. USB connection which was more compatible as the MIDI port started disappearing (The original MSFF didn't work on a game port, it had to be a MIDI port. Biggest advantage of all was the integration of the power supply which used a Figure Eight power cord. The power connector was more robust and the cord easily replaced off-the-shelf. You lost the shift button which created a second layer of controls while held. I also liked the throttle wheel over the little lever the FF2 used. The FF2 had the same infrared beam at the front to turn off the motors when your hand let go. I still have my FF2.
reply
StigDesign
its interesting that saitek or logitech dont get force-feedback back on flight equipment joystic, rudders, etc: D
i got that one not in 90s but much later from thrift store, last one i still use is that Logitect Force 3D pro Joystic with force feed back from 2009, i got it bundeled with Logiect Driving force GT also with force feed back and its working on Monster truck madness still: D G920 dont so i have my win10 pc for that wheel and joystic specific for retro games on newer system, that logitec G940 is tempting to find nice used but i think its hard and cost alot: ( btw i have that SidwEinder steering wheel not sure if its the force feedback and usb type but might me, let me know if interested, i think i have that joystic you show invideo too but ptorbly without force feedback tho: )
reply
its interesting that saitek or logitech dont get force-feedback back on flight equipment joystic, rudders, etc: D
i got that one not in 90s but much later from thrift store, last one i still use is that Logitect Force 3D pro Joystic with force feed back from 2009, i got it bundeled with Logiect Driving force GT also with force feed back and its working on Monster truck madness still: D G920 dont so i have my win10 pc for that wheel and joystic specific for retro games on newer system, that logitec G940 is tempting to find nice used but i think its hard and cost alot: ( btw i have that SidwEinder steering wheel not sure if its the force feedback and usb type but might me, let me know if interested, i think i have that joystic you show invideo too but ptorbly without force feedback tho: )
reply
Finnisher
Oh wow trip down the memory lane had this for years up to mid late 2000s!
Yep the demo mode was so cool already, I remember playing a racing game with this in particular but can't remember what game, if your car started sliding the resistance would just disappear it was so realistic.
Interesting about the blocked fan port because here in Europe (Finland) the joystick did have a fan actually.
Also mine came bundled with Interstate 76 which was great. I couldn't get the Gold patch to install at first though because the registry key generated for the bundled game was called Interstate76FRC instead of Interstate76.
Actually e-mailed Activision support and they told me that just rename the key, lols.
Interstate 76 with Glide acceleration and force feedback was so good!
reply
Oh wow trip down the memory lane had this for years up to mid late 2000s!
Yep the demo mode was so cool already, I remember playing a racing game with this in particular but can't remember what game, if your car started sliding the resistance would just disappear it was so realistic.
Interesting about the blocked fan port because here in Europe (Finland) the joystick did have a fan actually.
Also mine came bundled with Interstate 76 which was great. I couldn't get the Gold patch to install at first though because the registry key generated for the bundled game was called Interstate76FRC instead of Interstate76.
Actually e-mailed Activision support and they told me that just rename the key, lols.
Interstate 76 with Glide acceleration and force feedback was so good!
reply
Gigawipf
And because there is no successor for dinput with force feedback yet the same effect system is still in use by modern FFB devices and games so it is still all forwards and backwards compatible.
But nowadays games usually only use constant-force and damper. Rarely spring effects and the rest is pretty much forgotten and most forces are done physically accurate via constant-force instead.
And modern force feedback joysticks are so rare now that this device is still relevant even today. Truly ahead of its time.
I actually made a firmware for such FFB systems for DIY devices (OpenFFBoard) and had to learn about all the low level stuff but the protocol and documents are still mostly unchanged for over 20 years and heavily influenced by this single device.
reply
And because there is no successor for dinput with force feedback yet the same effect system is still in use by modern FFB devices and games so it is still all forwards and backwards compatible.
But nowadays games usually only use constant-force and damper. Rarely spring effects and the rest is pretty much forgotten and most forces are done physically accurate via constant-force instead.
And modern force feedback joysticks are so rare now that this device is still relevant even today. Truly ahead of its time.
I actually made a firmware for such FFB systems for DIY devices (OpenFFBoard) and had to learn about all the low level stuff but the protocol and documents are still mostly unchanged for over 20 years and heavily influenced by this single device.
reply
bulut
I love the FFB Sidewinder, used to play tons of Combat Flight simulator with it back in the day. Recently I dug it out of the storage and made my own Usb-D15 adapter with the teensy project you showed online. It's really a simple board to make to be honest, you just need a bit of soldering practice before you begin that's all. It works pretty well on Win10 now. Most games that I threw at it with FFB managed to work just fine. But there were a couple of annoying ones like Freespace 2, which either didn't recognize the stick or recognized it but didn't enable rebinding the axes.
It's a shame that Microsoft really went out of its way to try and kill PC gaming due to Xbox when it was spearheading some amazing stuff and amazing games during the late 90's.
reply
I love the FFB Sidewinder, used to play tons of Combat Flight simulator with it back in the day. Recently I dug it out of the storage and made my own Usb-D15 adapter with the teensy project you showed online. It's really a simple board to make to be honest, you just need a bit of soldering practice before you begin that's all. It works pretty well on Win10 now. Most games that I threw at it with FFB managed to work just fine. But there were a couple of annoying ones like Freespace 2, which either didn't recognize the stick or recognized it but didn't enable rebinding the axes.
It's a shame that Microsoft really went out of its way to try and kill PC gaming due to Xbox when it was spearheading some amazing stuff and amazing games during the late 90's.
reply
Steve
I still have my sidewinder ffb wheel and joystick, still upset that i haven't been able to use them since i moved from windows me to xp. Both gameport versions.
I remember the joystick especially was incredible in the mechwarrior games and forsaken.
The wheel was great for the time with good strength in monster truck madness but was heavily geared so was always quite sluggish.
I waited for years for a off the shelf adapter to be made so i could get these working again.
For anyone interested in building their own ffb wheel or joystick search openffboard, an incredible project that supports many types of motor and driver.
reply
I still have my sidewinder ffb wheel and joystick, still upset that i haven't been able to use them since i moved from windows me to xp. Both gameport versions.
I remember the joystick especially was incredible in the mechwarrior games and forsaken.
The wheel was great for the time with good strength in monster truck madness but was heavily geared so was always quite sluggish.
I waited for years for a off the shelf adapter to be made so i could get these working again.
For anyone interested in building their own ffb wheel or joystick search openffboard, an incredible project that supports many types of motor and driver.
reply
Atlink
I feel like force feedback is limited only to wheels for the most part. I get it - wheels can provide some much needed tactile feedback, but I feel that other games could totally benefit from a quality FF stick.
I remember Steel Battalion with its massive controller, and I always thought it would be awesome if it provided some quality Force Feedback.
I also remember the kiosk in my local EB and being amazed with the product. I did end up getting a wheel just because I loved racing games, but it was the Sidewinder Force Feedback wheel and I remember being exhausted using that. Those motors were NO joke - they were very strong!
reply
I feel like force feedback is limited only to wheels for the most part. I get it - wheels can provide some much needed tactile feedback, but I feel that other games could totally benefit from a quality FF stick.
I remember Steel Battalion with its massive controller, and I always thought it would be awesome if it provided some quality Force Feedback.
I also remember the kiosk in my local EB and being amazed with the product. I did end up getting a wheel just because I loved racing games, but it was the Sidewinder Force Feedback wheel and I remember being exhausted using that. Those motors were NO joke - they were very strong!
reply
PhastorTheDerg
I remember seeing this thing in a demo display at a Costco similar to the one you described. I remember the buttons that made it mimic different situations and there as a speaker in the display that put out sounds to go with the effects. I specifically remember the stick throwing my hand around in random directions as it played sounds of you getting hit in a boxing match. Also, another where it would vibrate in a circular motion as if you were in a helicopter as its rotor spinned up. Unfortunately, that was the first and last time I got to interact with the thing in person.
reply
I remember seeing this thing in a demo display at a Costco similar to the one you described. I remember the buttons that made it mimic different situations and there as a speaker in the display that put out sounds to go with the effects. I specifically remember the stick throwing my hand around in random directions as it played sounds of you getting hit in a boxing match. Also, another where it would vibrate in a circular motion as if you were in a helicopter as its rotor spinned up. Unfortunately, that was the first and last time I got to interact with the thing in person.
reply
Jendrossek
I had the exact same bundle and remember the pain to get it running including all the hardware drama. When it finally was going i could enjoy it not that much as the feedback was a bit to strong causing RSI, and the damn thing kept bouncing on my desk with a lot of noise. No gaming at night as it would wake up everyone. When i finally upgraded to W98 i also experienced games not starting and hardware not being initialized because of drivers drama. So i sold it again also because i got tired of it.
reply
I had the exact same bundle and remember the pain to get it running including all the hardware drama. When it finally was going i could enjoy it not that much as the feedback was a bit to strong causing RSI, and the damn thing kept bouncing on my desk with a lot of noise. No gaming at night as it would wake up everyone. When i finally upgraded to W98 i also experienced games not starting and hardware not being initialized because of drivers drama. So i sold it again also because i got tired of it.
reply
throwback19841
I still have the force feedback 2. Incredible joystick. I still use it for flight sims. Best joystick ever. You can feel trim position through the stick. The ff2 sells in excellent condition for more second hand than it did new. Only bit of computer hardware I know of that has actually appreciated. The optical sensors it uses for position never drift or lose sensitivity so they are built to last. Literally the best joystick ever made, noone makes anything comparable today. At any price point.
reply
I still have the force feedback 2. Incredible joystick. I still use it for flight sims. Best joystick ever. You can feel trim position through the stick. The ff2 sells in excellent condition for more second hand than it did new. Only bit of computer hardware I know of that has actually appreciated. The optical sensors it uses for position never drift or lose sensitivity so they are built to last. Literally the best joystick ever made, noone makes anything comparable today. At any price point.
reply
DJ
I use my sidewinder for DCS World when flying older aircraft, and especially helicopters. I've flown the Huey in real life, and it's the only thing that comes close to way it actually feels. It's unfortunate that the patents for joystick force feedback technology is owned by a company that just owns patents to make a profit off of them. I guess it's just not worth it for joystick companies to pay them for the use of those patents. I read somewhere that the patents expired after 2022 though. I'm hopeful.
reply
I use my sidewinder for DCS World when flying older aircraft, and especially helicopters. I've flown the Huey in real life, and it's the only thing that comes close to way it actually feels. It's unfortunate that the patents for joystick force feedback technology is owned by a company that just owns patents to make a profit off of them. I guess it's just not worth it for joystick companies to pay them for the use of those patents. I read somewhere that the patents expired after 2022 though. I'm hopeful.
reply
Mostly
We had one of those when I was a kid. I remember using it with Midtown Madness primarily. Then the proprietary power port snapped off. So I hot wired it. Then something else broke on it. I'm pretty sure it worked on XP. We also had a Logitech Wingman Pro which had a gameport to USB adapter, which worked with the Sidewinder, but I don't remember if the adapter worked with the feedback pro. The Logitech joystick still lives to this day used for a flight sim.
reply
We had one of those when I was a kid. I remember using it with Midtown Madness primarily. Then the proprietary power port snapped off. So I hot wired it. Then something else broke on it. I'm pretty sure it worked on XP. We also had a Logitech Wingman Pro which had a gameport to USB adapter, which worked with the Sidewinder, but I don't remember if the adapter worked with the feedback pro. The Logitech joystick still lives to this day used for a flight sim.
reply
bulico06
I just donated my Sidewinder to Goodwill, funny this comes up. I had both the original Sidewinder and the Logitech 3D. The logitech broke after about 3 months of use, but I kept using my sidewinder until they stopped offering a game port on new computers. Since I played mostly flight sims and mech games, it was great to have a FFB stick. Now it is an extremely niche product. Been thinking about putting down a deposit on one of those Rhino bases though.
reply
I just donated my Sidewinder to Goodwill, funny this comes up. I had both the original Sidewinder and the Logitech 3D. The logitech broke after about 3 months of use, but I kept using my sidewinder until they stopped offering a game port on new computers. Since I played mostly flight sims and mech games, it was great to have a FFB stick. Now it is an extremely niche product. Been thinking about putting down a deposit on one of those Rhino bases though.
reply
KonFoozed
I very recently dug out my old SideWinder myself to see if I'm able to get it to talk to modern computers and had no such luck. I'm really pleased to see MechWarrior and Pod Racer as games you tested this on, as that was what I used to play many hours on many years ago. Looking into how it translates the forcefeedback data, it's not ever going to work on a modern OS, even with some kind of converter, which is a shame.
reply
I very recently dug out my old SideWinder myself to see if I'm able to get it to talk to modern computers and had no such luck. I'm really pleased to see MechWarrior and Pod Racer as games you tested this on, as that was what I used to play many hours on many years ago. Looking into how it translates the forcefeedback data, it's not ever going to work on a modern OS, even with some kind of converter, which is a shame.
reply
The2x4King
I found a NIB SideWinder Force Feedback 2 in a Half Price Books a few years ago for like 30 and it's been my stick of choice ever since. It will be taken from my cold dead hands. In retrospect, that may also be the last really good find I've had at a HPB. Even just worked when I plugged it into a Windows 10 PC!
Also, I know the FS98 planes will port to CFS (and I believe vice versa as well.
reply
I found a NIB SideWinder Force Feedback 2 in a Half Price Books a few years ago for like 30 and it's been my stick of choice ever since. It will be taken from my cold dead hands. In retrospect, that may also be the last really good find I've had at a HPB. Even just worked when I plugged it into a Windows 10 PC!
Also, I know the FS98 planes will port to CFS (and I believe vice versa as well.
reply
Nevada
I have a Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick and I recently pulled it out to try with Flight Simulator 2020. Although FS2020 doesn't have a built-in profile for it, and it doesn't support force feedback effects, once you configure the inputs the Sidewinder works quite well as a general purpose joystick. I love the even resistance that it provides which is unmatched by an spring-based joystick.
reply
I have a Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 joystick and I recently pulled it out to try with Flight Simulator 2020. Although FS2020 doesn't have a built-in profile for it, and it doesn't support force feedback effects, once you configure the inputs the Sidewinder works quite well as a general purpose joystick. I love the even resistance that it provides which is unmatched by an spring-based joystick.
reply
Retro
I recently bought a plain old Sidewinder 3D pro from 95' and it's absolutely shit hot. Feels essentially arcade quality, rock solid and clicky, has a lovely low centre of gravity so its super stable as you play, and it never needs calibrating obviously. Just a joy to use and the best joystick I've ever used by some margin (I've never had one of those super expensive modern things to be fair.
reply
I recently bought a plain old Sidewinder 3D pro from 95' and it's absolutely shit hot. Feels essentially arcade quality, rock solid and clicky, has a lovely low centre of gravity so its super stable as you play, and it never needs calibrating obviously. Just a joy to use and the best joystick I've ever used by some margin (I've never had one of those super expensive modern things to be fair.
reply
Add a review, comment
Other channel videos
