Drawing WITHOUT Imagination - When You Can't Visualize ANYTHING - Proko
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Date: 2022-03-14
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Comments and reviews: 10
Tim
I love this so much! I am a painter, it-s how I make my living. A figurative painter! I am doing ok for myself in the Art World in New York and now LA. One of the things that-s really worked in my favor, not necessarily in the Art World, I mean yes there but who cares, but worked in favor of my paintings, keeping me from being corrupted by the fads and desires of the Art World and the Art Market (I capitalize them simply to identify which things I mean, not because I revere them. I have resisted letting my paintings become stylized, but I didn-t have to resist terribly hard, because when I approach a canvas I have LITERALLY no idea what I-m going to paint and I have no way of trying to imagine it. I can desire I want to make a painting concerning this or that subject matter, but once the brush starts going, I am taken almost completely by surprise. I have a final say at every turn, like if my brush starts painting something awful I can scrap it. But every time a figure emerges I meet them for the first time as though they just turned a corner and appeared in front of me. Once the painting is decided by line work on the canvas from some mysterious part of me, my experiences, my internal conversation, and my visual prompts and references, i get to work doing everything you talked about. I go over it and over it and over it, giving weight where there is none, contact where they-re touching, pull out expressions on faces not by imagining how they appear but by following the prompts of the brushwork.
I have a weird combo of things: I can-t visualize in my mind, but I see faces, sometimes full figures, real, articulated, sometimes animated, often cartoonishly weird figures with my literal eyes, in the brush work of my paintings, other people-s paintings, wooden doors, marble countertops clouds. Not delusions, it-s like I-ve spent too much time building up the strength of the Seeing muscles in my brain and now it can-t stop seeing. There have even been moments when- ok for example I was painting a man-s body with no reference, and my mind literally projected onto the canvas, onto his body, every single muscle, bulge and dip. He was nude, and while I was totally unable to visualize anything and hadn-t cared whether or not he had accurate muscles or anything, I was shocked to see them all laid out over him, in lines constructed in very faint light, meticulously detailed. I felt like I had to trace them just to compare them to reality later, to see if these were in fact accurate. I simply traced my visual projection, and as I went it got more and more retailed, w shading, muscles under the muscles, i had to go over several times before I drew the line. My brain knew, KNEW every single muscle from his feet to his head. How I knew them is beyond me. I-m not a man and I-m gay. There aren-t like a hundred naked men in my 40 year life, or- even 5 haha. I dont have a classical art education.
It-s like my brain can-t decide: on one hand I can-t imagine images, but on the other hand I will basically hallucinate images (just visual) but I have no control over it. Like I can-t conjure up an accurate hallucination or even an inaccurate one. But - it inevitably shows up, maybe as a weird face constructed of the bushes in a landscape (useless) or I can see the features of the fictional person in the painting as though they were truly real people (useful) but it-s just as likely to make faces appear in the folds of said person-s shirt (really, like my brain doesn-t tale my job as seriously as I-d like it to.
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I love this so much! I am a painter, it-s how I make my living. A figurative painter! I am doing ok for myself in the Art World in New York and now LA. One of the things that-s really worked in my favor, not necessarily in the Art World, I mean yes there but who cares, but worked in favor of my paintings, keeping me from being corrupted by the fads and desires of the Art World and the Art Market (I capitalize them simply to identify which things I mean, not because I revere them. I have resisted letting my paintings become stylized, but I didn-t have to resist terribly hard, because when I approach a canvas I have LITERALLY no idea what I-m going to paint and I have no way of trying to imagine it. I can desire I want to make a painting concerning this or that subject matter, but once the brush starts going, I am taken almost completely by surprise. I have a final say at every turn, like if my brush starts painting something awful I can scrap it. But every time a figure emerges I meet them for the first time as though they just turned a corner and appeared in front of me. Once the painting is decided by line work on the canvas from some mysterious part of me, my experiences, my internal conversation, and my visual prompts and references, i get to work doing everything you talked about. I go over it and over it and over it, giving weight where there is none, contact where they-re touching, pull out expressions on faces not by imagining how they appear but by following the prompts of the brushwork.
I have a weird combo of things: I can-t visualize in my mind, but I see faces, sometimes full figures, real, articulated, sometimes animated, often cartoonishly weird figures with my literal eyes, in the brush work of my paintings, other people-s paintings, wooden doors, marble countertops clouds. Not delusions, it-s like I-ve spent too much time building up the strength of the Seeing muscles in my brain and now it can-t stop seeing. There have even been moments when- ok for example I was painting a man-s body with no reference, and my mind literally projected onto the canvas, onto his body, every single muscle, bulge and dip. He was nude, and while I was totally unable to visualize anything and hadn-t cared whether or not he had accurate muscles or anything, I was shocked to see them all laid out over him, in lines constructed in very faint light, meticulously detailed. I felt like I had to trace them just to compare them to reality later, to see if these were in fact accurate. I simply traced my visual projection, and as I went it got more and more retailed, w shading, muscles under the muscles, i had to go over several times before I drew the line. My brain knew, KNEW every single muscle from his feet to his head. How I knew them is beyond me. I-m not a man and I-m gay. There aren-t like a hundred naked men in my 40 year life, or- even 5 haha. I dont have a classical art education.
It-s like my brain can-t decide: on one hand I can-t imagine images, but on the other hand I will basically hallucinate images (just visual) but I have no control over it. Like I can-t conjure up an accurate hallucination or even an inaccurate one. But - it inevitably shows up, maybe as a weird face constructed of the bushes in a landscape (useless) or I can see the features of the fictional person in the painting as though they were truly real people (useful) but it-s just as likely to make faces appear in the folds of said person-s shirt (really, like my brain doesn-t tale my job as seriously as I-d like it to.
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Marie
I can pretty much conclusively say that no one actually -vividly- see anything in their minds. Like, you can experience a hyperrealistic dream sequence. But it has more to do with the inability to separate imagination from reality than imagination being as well constructed as the reality itself. The few cases where this is not the case are because we're dealing with savants the likes of which can not only recall exact details about the world, but also directly animate them in their minds. Since this is an outrageously challenging mental exercise, it's practically unheard of. The closest most people would ever come is a state of intuition.
I'm not saying this to make anyone not able to actively visualise imagery in their minds feel better about themselves. It's a rational deduction about the practical capability of the mind based on what humans through history have literally been able to achieve. If this was not the case; i. e. literally vivid construction of imagery in one's mind through sheer will was commonplace, several feats of engineering are not things that would've been invented in the 19-20th century. That is unless the person in question had exhaustive awareness of the thing (i. e. a machine you've physically operated for 20 years, at which point a vivid imagination would be unnecessary to imagine the thing not through imagery, but through abstract sensation and muscle memory.
It's in the concept of vivid imagination that it's not something you would have complete knowledge about, but have to mentally reconstruct as if it is something nonexistent and fantastical. Indeed, I think the main distinction between someone with aphantasia and someone with a -vivid- imagination is exactly that, the latter has the intent to believe the mind has practically reconstructed visuals, while the former has not. In dreams, it is the belief that such the thing has occurred that fuels our feelings of imagination. Whether it is practically -vivid- or not is irrelevant. It is mysterious exactly because it's not in the nature of science, and because it's ephemeral nature is more readily experienced by the intuition of those not bound by theory.
It is because of this observation that I firmly believe -imagination- is something that can be learned, so long as you recognise it won't necessarily manifest in the way you casually expect it to. That we accept the things we've come to believe is often a flaw of communication and the limits of language. Abstract concepts are seldomly exact.
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I can pretty much conclusively say that no one actually -vividly- see anything in their minds. Like, you can experience a hyperrealistic dream sequence. But it has more to do with the inability to separate imagination from reality than imagination being as well constructed as the reality itself. The few cases where this is not the case are because we're dealing with savants the likes of which can not only recall exact details about the world, but also directly animate them in their minds. Since this is an outrageously challenging mental exercise, it's practically unheard of. The closest most people would ever come is a state of intuition.
I'm not saying this to make anyone not able to actively visualise imagery in their minds feel better about themselves. It's a rational deduction about the practical capability of the mind based on what humans through history have literally been able to achieve. If this was not the case; i. e. literally vivid construction of imagery in one's mind through sheer will was commonplace, several feats of engineering are not things that would've been invented in the 19-20th century. That is unless the person in question had exhaustive awareness of the thing (i. e. a machine you've physically operated for 20 years, at which point a vivid imagination would be unnecessary to imagine the thing not through imagery, but through abstract sensation and muscle memory.
It's in the concept of vivid imagination that it's not something you would have complete knowledge about, but have to mentally reconstruct as if it is something nonexistent and fantastical. Indeed, I think the main distinction between someone with aphantasia and someone with a -vivid- imagination is exactly that, the latter has the intent to believe the mind has practically reconstructed visuals, while the former has not. In dreams, it is the belief that such the thing has occurred that fuels our feelings of imagination. Whether it is practically -vivid- or not is irrelevant. It is mysterious exactly because it's not in the nature of science, and because it's ephemeral nature is more readily experienced by the intuition of those not bound by theory.
It is because of this observation that I firmly believe -imagination- is something that can be learned, so long as you recognise it won't necessarily manifest in the way you casually expect it to. That we accept the things we've come to believe is often a flaw of communication and the limits of language. Abstract concepts are seldomly exact.
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6arrou
I have a hyperphantasia and it has taken over my life. I feel so hard in concentrating and Im entirely disconnected with reality at some point. It has the advantage of dreaming about something you could never have in your life. But on the other hand, it makes you realize you are losing a lot of experience in what the world can offer to you. For example, You will find it easier to be alone, imagining and hallucinating the world you are creating in your imagination whereas you won't find other (Real People) companion is pleasing. IDK if its just me, But I think If my mind's eye were not that vivid by showing me imaginary things for almost 24 hours, I will have a better life. like interacting with normies, enjoy real life, pursue my dreams/goals or even achieve something better that could actually exist. -
I'm an artist myself, and while it has advantages of creating something originally through your mind, you will find it harder to draw or paint from references because finding references exactly like your mind's eye is telling you is hard. And You take a longer time to create arts as you will find your painting is not the same as you visualize it in your mind's eye so you tend to revise all the time that they just end up as wips.
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I have a hyperphantasia and it has taken over my life. I feel so hard in concentrating and Im entirely disconnected with reality at some point. It has the advantage of dreaming about something you could never have in your life. But on the other hand, it makes you realize you are losing a lot of experience in what the world can offer to you. For example, You will find it easier to be alone, imagining and hallucinating the world you are creating in your imagination whereas you won't find other (Real People) companion is pleasing. IDK if its just me, But I think If my mind's eye were not that vivid by showing me imaginary things for almost 24 hours, I will have a better life. like interacting with normies, enjoy real life, pursue my dreams/goals or even achieve something better that could actually exist. -
I'm an artist myself, and while it has advantages of creating something originally through your mind, you will find it harder to draw or paint from references because finding references exactly like your mind's eye is telling you is hard. And You take a longer time to create arts as you will find your painting is not the same as you visualize it in your mind's eye so you tend to revise all the time that they just end up as wips.
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Zeekar
The thing that confuses me about the conversation around imagination (aphantasia) Is that we can't even come to terms (can't define what we're referring to) so all arguments, anecdotes and comparisons end up going nowhere. I can imagine objects and can imagine them animating, but I don't actually see them per-se. Yet, I also can. I can sometimes close my eyes and literally see simple shapes moving around and have some degree of control over their movements. More trippy, when I'm closest to a sleeping state, I can literally see full color photorealistic things that seem real. But that is all entirely useless from a practical sense. I can't try to almost be asleep when drawing or otherwise attempt to literally see what I want to draw in my head. I don't have to. I can just imagine it. See how confusing this sounds? There are at least two things going on with human perception and imagination. Some people seem to be describing waking dreams (visual hallucinations. These are definitely real, so I'm willing to believe some people are able to have the ability to hallucinate on command when their eyes are closed, but I can never really be sure if that's what people are talking about.
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The thing that confuses me about the conversation around imagination (aphantasia) Is that we can't even come to terms (can't define what we're referring to) so all arguments, anecdotes and comparisons end up going nowhere. I can imagine objects and can imagine them animating, but I don't actually see them per-se. Yet, I also can. I can sometimes close my eyes and literally see simple shapes moving around and have some degree of control over their movements. More trippy, when I'm closest to a sleeping state, I can literally see full color photorealistic things that seem real. But that is all entirely useless from a practical sense. I can't try to almost be asleep when drawing or otherwise attempt to literally see what I want to draw in my head. I don't have to. I can just imagine it. See how confusing this sounds? There are at least two things going on with human perception and imagination. Some people seem to be describing waking dreams (visual hallucinations. These are definitely real, so I'm willing to believe some people are able to have the ability to hallucinate on command when their eyes are closed, but I can never really be sure if that's what people are talking about.
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Ruffledan
This was actually quite interesting and helpful for me! I don't have aphantasia, I can see the things I imagine, but they're quite distortioned/misshaped all the time. I barely can think whenever I draw so instead of thinking I just let my hand do the strokes it feels familiar with, which is fun because I never know what the results will be! I always saw drawing as a way of creating rather than translating thoughts since I'm little. Despite practicing, using references and trying to understand space and structure I can't draw realistic at all, ending up with things that my own hand creates most of the time rather than my imagination. When I heard about aphantasia for the first time I wondered if people with it wouldn't be able to draw, but It's nice to see how drawing is the way some people use to give imagery to their mind and not just move it into canvas. I always wondered if other people had a hard time thinking while drawing and how they dealt with it.
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This was actually quite interesting and helpful for me! I don't have aphantasia, I can see the things I imagine, but they're quite distortioned/misshaped all the time. I barely can think whenever I draw so instead of thinking I just let my hand do the strokes it feels familiar with, which is fun because I never know what the results will be! I always saw drawing as a way of creating rather than translating thoughts since I'm little. Despite practicing, using references and trying to understand space and structure I can't draw realistic at all, ending up with things that my own hand creates most of the time rather than my imagination. When I heard about aphantasia for the first time I wondered if people with it wouldn't be able to draw, but It's nice to see how drawing is the way some people use to give imagery to their mind and not just move it into canvas. I always wondered if other people had a hard time thinking while drawing and how they dealt with it.
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James
But the problem is every time I use confident lines it looks ten times worse than chicken scratches, if I try to use shapes and 3D shapes the proportions and feeling completely messes up and I get frustrated and start to cry, because my mind won't let me create. -
it will only let me copy, but I want to create, I can copy an image like 70 to 85% or something like that, it looks pretty decent, but drawing anything but isolated boxes from imagination is completely out of the question, I despise it, I want to create so badly, but no matter how much time I spend or how many tutorials I watch or books I read or how much reference I look at and break down, I just don't get it, I want to make beautiful drawings, animations and games, I even learned game programming, but can't make anything, because I can't create any assets, please help me.
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But the problem is every time I use confident lines it looks ten times worse than chicken scratches, if I try to use shapes and 3D shapes the proportions and feeling completely messes up and I get frustrated and start to cry, because my mind won't let me create. -
it will only let me copy, but I want to create, I can copy an image like 70 to 85% or something like that, it looks pretty decent, but drawing anything but isolated boxes from imagination is completely out of the question, I despise it, I want to create so badly, but no matter how much time I spend or how many tutorials I watch or books I read or how much reference I look at and break down, I just don't get it, I want to make beautiful drawings, animations and games, I even learned game programming, but can't make anything, because I can't create any assets, please help me.
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Joel
Nice video, you're amazing. I used to be like you. Then I trained myself how to visualize. You can see and visualize just find. It's just not being done in your conscious mind. It's happening in your unconscious mind. I developed a system that will train you to visualize starting from a 2d red circle, all the way to being able to see in what I call 360 degree vision. You can see in all directions at the same time. It all has to do with consciousness and developing it inside the dimension of our minds. By the way your mind operates in pictures. I guarantee this is true. If I ask you what color is your front door; I bet you will be able to tell me. That means you have to be seeing it or you would not be able to tell me. I promise you can visualize. Have a great day
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Nice video, you're amazing. I used to be like you. Then I trained myself how to visualize. You can see and visualize just find. It's just not being done in your conscious mind. It's happening in your unconscious mind. I developed a system that will train you to visualize starting from a 2d red circle, all the way to being able to see in what I call 360 degree vision. You can see in all directions at the same time. It all has to do with consciousness and developing it inside the dimension of our minds. By the way your mind operates in pictures. I guarantee this is true. If I ask you what color is your front door; I bet you will be able to tell me. That means you have to be seeing it or you would not be able to tell me. I promise you can visualize. Have a great day
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CrispTomato94
As someone with very strong imagination, I gotta say this is fascinating. I have my own music video visualized for nearly every song I listen to and daydreaming is how I fall asleep at night. Hell, I-ve been building an entire fictional world (with a cringy self-insert because I was like 12 when I created it lol) in my head for the past 4+ years. Couldn-t imagine being able to function without being able to visualize. I wonder if aphantasia makes people more honed in to other skill sets, kind of like how blind people tend to have more observant hearing.
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As someone with very strong imagination, I gotta say this is fascinating. I have my own music video visualized for nearly every song I listen to and daydreaming is how I fall asleep at night. Hell, I-ve been building an entire fictional world (with a cringy self-insert because I was like 12 when I created it lol) in my head for the past 4+ years. Couldn-t imagine being able to function without being able to visualize. I wonder if aphantasia makes people more honed in to other skill sets, kind of like how blind people tend to have more observant hearing.
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Claudio
This is really encouraging! I've recently discovered I have aphantasia and it somewhat affected my confidence in my art career. I'm not very experienced, but I'm always trying to improve and learn, but learning about aphantasia made me think I had a lower skill ceiling than every other artist that hasn't it.
Knowing that such a knowledgeable and skilled person like Irshad also has aphantasia is certainly reassuring. Now I know there is no lower skill ceiling, just a different approach in life and in art. :)
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This is really encouraging! I've recently discovered I have aphantasia and it somewhat affected my confidence in my art career. I'm not very experienced, but I'm always trying to improve and learn, but learning about aphantasia made me think I had a lower skill ceiling than every other artist that hasn't it.
Knowing that such a knowledgeable and skilled person like Irshad also has aphantasia is certainly reassuring. Now I know there is no lower skill ceiling, just a different approach in life and in art. :)
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Zen
I learned about my condition a few years ago when studies first started coming out. But most people don-t even know they have Aphantasia till they learn about it. So hopefully more research will be done and more share information.
Great video btw. I always struggled with art having Aphantasia. Without being able to imagine I would basically copy others artwork and draw my own take of it. But coming up with original characters or scenes without a reference image is just impossible for me.
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I learned about my condition a few years ago when studies first started coming out. But most people don-t even know they have Aphantasia till they learn about it. So hopefully more research will be done and more share information.
Great video btw. I always struggled with art having Aphantasia. Without being able to imagine I would basically copy others artwork and draw my own take of it. But coming up with original characters or scenes without a reference image is just impossible for me.
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