Is Linus Trolling The Linux Community? DistroTube
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Date: 2022-03-30
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Comments and reviews: 10
accel1leon
I greatly disagree with this. I work with Linux daily in devops, and I do all of my personal dev on it. LTT's approach to this isn't meant for power users, people experienced with linux or even necessarily the most tech savvy of people. I've had to train coworkers on just -using not managing- linux, these are people with years of experience managing windows environments. Linux works for me, its great, i know how to work with it, but you cannot reasonably expect an average joe to know git, let alone have the will to muck with learning it just to get things to function. You can't expect an average joe to have to learn to work in the terminal. Standard users -expect- it to just work or be easy to make it work.
You're right, these aren't necessarily Linux issues. But they are turn-offs that prevent capture of an audience. Peripheral manufacturers, game and software developers don't see the additional overhead involved in making their product cross-compliable. Why spend developer time that all likely make $100k+/yr doing such if only one platform has widescale adoption? Linux users simply not buying their product isn't going to coerce them in any way, they weren't counting on revenue from that market segment anyway. If we want more first-party support for linux, linux needs to capture your average joe. For that to happen linux needs to accommodate them, and frankly it doesn't and this gatekeeper mentality of -this isn't windows or mac, you can't use it like one- doesn't hold water. Linux adoption is currently in a state where it cannot capture the audience because it doesn't have first-party support, first-party support rarely exists because it doesn't have an audience and third-party support requires more than just a download and a couple clicks.
It took me more than a day to find and get working a wireless dongle that worked on an ubuntu distro. An update in the linux kernel broke a lot of drivers for older dongles that aren't packaged in the kernel because they aren't actively maintained and i still needed to open up the terminal and do some jank for something that is a download and click in windows. After all that -i still need to unplug it or reboot when switching networks-.
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I greatly disagree with this. I work with Linux daily in devops, and I do all of my personal dev on it. LTT's approach to this isn't meant for power users, people experienced with linux or even necessarily the most tech savvy of people. I've had to train coworkers on just -using not managing- linux, these are people with years of experience managing windows environments. Linux works for me, its great, i know how to work with it, but you cannot reasonably expect an average joe to know git, let alone have the will to muck with learning it just to get things to function. You can't expect an average joe to have to learn to work in the terminal. Standard users -expect- it to just work or be easy to make it work.
You're right, these aren't necessarily Linux issues. But they are turn-offs that prevent capture of an audience. Peripheral manufacturers, game and software developers don't see the additional overhead involved in making their product cross-compliable. Why spend developer time that all likely make $100k+/yr doing such if only one platform has widescale adoption? Linux users simply not buying their product isn't going to coerce them in any way, they weren't counting on revenue from that market segment anyway. If we want more first-party support for linux, linux needs to capture your average joe. For that to happen linux needs to accommodate them, and frankly it doesn't and this gatekeeper mentality of -this isn't windows or mac, you can't use it like one- doesn't hold water. Linux adoption is currently in a state where it cannot capture the audience because it doesn't have first-party support, first-party support rarely exists because it doesn't have an audience and third-party support requires more than just a download and a couple clicks.
It took me more than a day to find and get working a wireless dongle that worked on an ubuntu distro. An update in the linux kernel broke a lot of drivers for older dongles that aren't packaged in the kernel because they aren't actively maintained and i still needed to open up the terminal and do some jank for something that is a download and click in windows. After all that -i still need to unplug it or reboot when switching networks-.
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Dhag
XD well I'm a developer and I got to admit it takes a bit to get used to git at the beginning can be overwhelming but I see the point of Linus that Linux experience should move towards being more intuitive. Although people should be willing to search, read and learn we're in 2022 now, things should be a little smother, that's why now exists Flatpacks or Discover, there's a lot of improvement of Gnome and KDE, the idea is to make it easier to move from windows to Linux. I'm a dev but also a gamer I have a lot of things like Razer or Corsair peripherals with RGB and the only way of companies to develop proprietary drivers and software to Linux distros is to see more people adopting distros, more engagement so they are forced to funnel resources to that. A key point of me not using a distro in my main pc is that I want to play games but not only configuring those in Linux are a chore on top of that configuring my peripherals is also a chore that's why I use windows. That's why I love to watch niccolo a KDE dev because he sees what normies have been trying to tell Linux community for so long, and that's that some changes are really needed it's intimidating to change OS. iPhones and Android phones are not the same but the general experience is backwards compatible and having for example an iPhone for 7 years wont need you to toss all that knowledge aside whenever you want to switch your phone, you'll need like 30 mins to get used to the new experience. But the same logic does not apply for Linux
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XD well I'm a developer and I got to admit it takes a bit to get used to git at the beginning can be overwhelming but I see the point of Linus that Linux experience should move towards being more intuitive. Although people should be willing to search, read and learn we're in 2022 now, things should be a little smother, that's why now exists Flatpacks or Discover, there's a lot of improvement of Gnome and KDE, the idea is to make it easier to move from windows to Linux. I'm a dev but also a gamer I have a lot of things like Razer or Corsair peripherals with RGB and the only way of companies to develop proprietary drivers and software to Linux distros is to see more people adopting distros, more engagement so they are forced to funnel resources to that. A key point of me not using a distro in my main pc is that I want to play games but not only configuring those in Linux are a chore on top of that configuring my peripherals is also a chore that's why I use windows. That's why I love to watch niccolo a KDE dev because he sees what normies have been trying to tell Linux community for so long, and that's that some changes are really needed it's intimidating to change OS. iPhones and Android phones are not the same but the general experience is backwards compatible and having for example an iPhone for 7 years wont need you to toss all that knowledge aside whenever you want to switch your phone, you'll need like 30 mins to get used to the new experience. But the same logic does not apply for Linux
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Kazz
that entire bash shell CLI segemnt should never have been said spoken aloud or even needed to because linus should never have used it or needed to.
nobody knows anything of bash shell python CLI terminal or whatever other of that stuff
you just spent minutes speaking a foreign language and all the newbs tuned out in 10 seconds...
you literally lost linux at least 50% of any new users who tripped over this vid
...........linus shouldnt have needed it or been sent there.................
-you dont need terminal anymore- has been chanted all across the internet on mass
clearly thats a lie...and clearly you do...because you will be told to.
and the differences dont matter at that point
-users- never see command line in over 10 yrs...within minutes not days he was sent into it
-users- dont fresh install for years sometimes 10 years...they buy a new computer by then.
windows does tell you how windows works...remember the paperclip guy?
10 15yrs that guy irritated everyone....but he taught most of the world
newbs are googling -linux app store- not manjaro package manager...
ive seen it too many times....even you dont know what the outside world expects?!?!?
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that entire bash shell CLI segemnt should never have been said spoken aloud or even needed to because linus should never have used it or needed to.
nobody knows anything of bash shell python CLI terminal or whatever other of that stuff
you just spent minutes speaking a foreign language and all the newbs tuned out in 10 seconds...
you literally lost linux at least 50% of any new users who tripped over this vid
...........linus shouldnt have needed it or been sent there.................
-you dont need terminal anymore- has been chanted all across the internet on mass
clearly thats a lie...and clearly you do...because you will be told to.
and the differences dont matter at that point
-users- never see command line in over 10 yrs...within minutes not days he was sent into it
-users- dont fresh install for years sometimes 10 years...they buy a new computer by then.
windows does tell you how windows works...remember the paperclip guy?
10 15yrs that guy irritated everyone....but he taught most of the world
newbs are googling -linux app store- not manjaro package manager...
ive seen it too many times....even you dont know what the outside world expects?!?!?
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Omni
linus is right with the -apt-get- issue. If you're doing a distribution that wants to target as much users as possible it's YOUR job to make it as easy as possible. And with the widespread use of apt-get it shouldn't bee too hard for manjaro to ship a script that tells the user what a packet manager is and maybe recommend running 'pacman -S obs-studio' instead - most of the time this approach works.
Would be a much better linux experience for non apt-get distributions.
I use linux since 1995 and I've experience (that's why I would never recommend an arch based distribution to a newby - I'm currently running Manjaro on my main machine btw.) - but we Linux users should stop defending things that can be done better. Y windows and macOS have their flaws as well, but if we want to do it better, we should hear what the users have to say and make their life easier.
I hate this RTFM attitude.
EDIT: If he would've had a better experience with the apt-get issue he may've been in a better mood for the rest. If the first experience is a good one you change the whole perception. I've no idea why he installed Manjaro-
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linus is right with the -apt-get- issue. If you're doing a distribution that wants to target as much users as possible it's YOUR job to make it as easy as possible. And with the widespread use of apt-get it shouldn't bee too hard for manjaro to ship a script that tells the user what a packet manager is and maybe recommend running 'pacman -S obs-studio' instead - most of the time this approach works.
Would be a much better linux experience for non apt-get distributions.
I use linux since 1995 and I've experience (that's why I would never recommend an arch based distribution to a newby - I'm currently running Manjaro on my main machine btw.) - but we Linux users should stop defending things that can be done better. Y windows and macOS have their flaws as well, but if we want to do it better, we should hear what the users have to say and make their life easier.
I hate this RTFM attitude.
EDIT: If he would've had a better experience with the apt-get issue he may've been in a better mood for the rest. If the first experience is a good one you change the whole perception. I've no idea why he installed Manjaro-
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Justin
I cant tell if youre missing the point of his video on purpose or not. The whole point of this entire series was that linus wanted to A: try linux to see if its a viable option for pc gamers and B: show devs and users what its like for someone who knows little to nothing (Linus) or just enough (Luke) to switch over. As a person who was doing exactly that around the same time, they hit the nail right on the head. Im good with tech and ran into many of the same issues Linus had, including the apt/pacman frustration. The average person just trying out Linux is most likely not going to do a ton of research before they do it, theyll run the most recommended distro for what they wanna do and run with it. The issue i have with your video is i cant tell if youre aware of that or if youre one of the Linux people Linus complains about in the running a script issue.
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I cant tell if youre missing the point of his video on purpose or not. The whole point of this entire series was that linus wanted to A: try linux to see if its a viable option for pc gamers and B: show devs and users what its like for someone who knows little to nothing (Linus) or just enough (Luke) to switch over. As a person who was doing exactly that around the same time, they hit the nail right on the head. Im good with tech and ran into many of the same issues Linus had, including the apt/pacman frustration. The average person just trying out Linux is most likely not going to do a ton of research before they do it, theyll run the most recommended distro for what they wanna do and run with it. The issue i have with your video is i cant tell if youre aware of that or if youre one of the Linux people Linus complains about in the running a script issue.
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Asura
So erm...the whole time I feel that you're taking the protective stance
which resulted in you explaining why so little people want to go over to Linux
-You can simply google- - to install packages? Why would the average user not be allowed to complain about that?
The purpose of the video was to go through linux - as a newbie. To go through it as though you're a Windows user trying to go into Linux, that includes ASSUMING your confirmation is safe to run, thus - PopOS having the disaster as to REMOVE the top layer packages is going to push away the average user without Linus saying anything....
No reason why the whole time you're so overprotective, try to understand the purpose of the video...
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So erm...the whole time I feel that you're taking the protective stance
which resulted in you explaining why so little people want to go over to Linux
-You can simply google- - to install packages? Why would the average user not be allowed to complain about that?
The purpose of the video was to go through linux - as a newbie. To go through it as though you're a Windows user trying to go into Linux, that includes ASSUMING your confirmation is safe to run, thus - PopOS having the disaster as to REMOVE the top layer packages is going to push away the average user without Linus saying anything....
No reason why the whole time you're so overprotective, try to understand the purpose of the video...
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Harley
You completely missed the premise of the challenge. It is designed for the average user who knows nothing about linux coming from windows 10 and just wants it to work for games. If you learn apt-get you may have no idea that it requires different commands for a different distro as its still under the name linux, giving a possible assumption that it all works the same. You can't just say he should already be a pro linux user. He also was not a windows fanboy per say but he was a windows user switching to linux to show the average users common issues to highlight them for possible help. I have made these mistakes and I would say many other beginners have made all these mistakes before that you learn from.
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You completely missed the premise of the challenge. It is designed for the average user who knows nothing about linux coming from windows 10 and just wants it to work for games. If you learn apt-get you may have no idea that it requires different commands for a different distro as its still under the name linux, giving a possible assumption that it all works the same. You can't just say he should already be a pro linux user. He also was not a windows fanboy per say but he was a windows user switching to linux to show the average users common issues to highlight them for possible help. I have made these mistakes and I would say many other beginners have made all these mistakes before that you learn from.
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Kevin
He can't -troll the Linux community- because nobody takes his words seriously, nobody in the Linux community listens to or hears him, ask any actual programmer and they will immediately tell you this guy is a nobody who likes to blab about things he just barely knows anything about, which incidentally is enough for the average person who isn't working in tech. Just because a few millions regular non-programming tech-wannabies watch him daily doesn't mean he's got any sort of importance or presence in the actual world of computing and development. He is the equivalent of Elon Musk, just on a lot smaller scale - popular for something he doesn't actually know all that much about.
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He can't -troll the Linux community- because nobody takes his words seriously, nobody in the Linux community listens to or hears him, ask any actual programmer and they will immediately tell you this guy is a nobody who likes to blab about things he just barely knows anything about, which incidentally is enough for the average person who isn't working in tech. Just because a few millions regular non-programming tech-wannabies watch him daily doesn't mean he's got any sort of importance or presence in the actual world of computing and development. He is the equivalent of Elon Musk, just on a lot smaller scale - popular for something he doesn't actually know all that much about.
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Nick
Man, as a windows fan who is trying to dabble my fingers in linux, I was just starting to enjoy your content - only to see this video. I was hopeful to see you advocate for changes to be made to make linux more beginner friendly, but was instead greeted with a out of touch and purposefully ignorant response to the many problems that plague new linux users. Even just a followup video addressing the comments would have been nice to see, but instead, nothing.
When you say you advocate for everyone to switch to linux and it's your life passion, I would've hoped you would have been more considerate and attune to the problems people face with it!
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Man, as a windows fan who is trying to dabble my fingers in linux, I was just starting to enjoy your content - only to see this video. I was hopeful to see you advocate for changes to be made to make linux more beginner friendly, but was instead greeted with a out of touch and purposefully ignorant response to the many problems that plague new linux users. Even just a followup video addressing the comments would have been nice to see, but instead, nothing.
When you say you advocate for everyone to switch to linux and it's your life passion, I would've hoped you would have been more considerate and attune to the problems people face with it!
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Henry
I have a two-sided reaction to Linus messing up APT versus Pacman. I don't feel like it was a completely dumb mistake to make, as a user could have made that mistake quite easily, but I also don't think that the Bash shell should tell you what it does. I think Linus is being a little unfair here to the command line, as if you, for example, run ls on windows, it doesn't tell you -hey, use dir instead- but instead just says -command not found.- The windows command line isn't any better than Bash in this regard, so I think it's unfair for Linus to ding his rating of linux based on it.
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I have a two-sided reaction to Linus messing up APT versus Pacman. I don't feel like it was a completely dumb mistake to make, as a user could have made that mistake quite easily, but I also don't think that the Bash shell should tell you what it does. I think Linus is being a little unfair here to the command line, as if you, for example, run ls on windows, it doesn't tell you -hey, use dir instead- but instead just says -command not found.- The windows command line isn't any better than Bash in this regard, so I think it's unfair for Linus to ding his rating of linux based on it.
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