Why Don't We Have More European Cars In America?
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Date: 2020-01-11
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Comments and reviews: 9
ast5515
A couple of notes: - Many of us live in cities and have no need to leave said city more than once a week. Base engines are considered the city choice. But for most of us the Captur 0. 9 is underpowered. You're gonna get good city fuel economy but it drops significantly outside of it due to the 5 speed gearbox and the fact that you have to floor it to go anywhere. Our bigger engines don't really consume more fuel outside the city but the EU test cycle seems to reward smaller engines which is why we have them. It's not about the consumer. They calculate CO2 emissions based on the fuel economy cycle and if it's over 95 gramms/km (45-ish US mpg equivalent) the manufacturer has to pay a significant penalty for each vehicle sold. - We love(d) diesels (thanks VW) because they get you real world 45-50 mpg if you drive them gently and they have variable geometry turbos (something you don't find in 99% of turbo petrol engines due to problems with heat management) which means they have peak torque at 1500 RPM and even in that region there is virtually no lag. That responsiveness is missing from turbo petrol engines. They have peak torque down low but if you floor them at 1500 RPM it's gonna take 3 seconds to get into boost vs 1 second in a diesel. - Our parking spots are smaller but we learned to use them better. If a spot is 5-6 feet longer than your car, it's considered big and easy to park. 3 feet longer than the car is still fine for us. And we do that even if the car has no parking sensors or cameras. - Due to fuel prices it's often cheaper to fly to a holiday destination than it is to drive there so we rarely drive more than an hour at a time.
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A couple of notes: - Many of us live in cities and have no need to leave said city more than once a week. Base engines are considered the city choice. But for most of us the Captur 0. 9 is underpowered. You're gonna get good city fuel economy but it drops significantly outside of it due to the 5 speed gearbox and the fact that you have to floor it to go anywhere. Our bigger engines don't really consume more fuel outside the city but the EU test cycle seems to reward smaller engines which is why we have them. It's not about the consumer. They calculate CO2 emissions based on the fuel economy cycle and if it's over 95 gramms/km (45-ish US mpg equivalent) the manufacturer has to pay a significant penalty for each vehicle sold. - We love(d) diesels (thanks VW) because they get you real world 45-50 mpg if you drive them gently and they have variable geometry turbos (something you don't find in 99% of turbo petrol engines due to problems with heat management) which means they have peak torque at 1500 RPM and even in that region there is virtually no lag. That responsiveness is missing from turbo petrol engines. They have peak torque down low but if you floor them at 1500 RPM it's gonna take 3 seconds to get into boost vs 1 second in a diesel. - Our parking spots are smaller but we learned to use them better. If a spot is 5-6 feet longer than your car, it's considered big and easy to park. 3 feet longer than the car is still fine for us. And we do that even if the car has no parking sensors or cameras. - Due to fuel prices it's often cheaper to fly to a holiday destination than it is to drive there so we rarely drive more than an hour at a time.
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James Mastroianni
16: 35 so are you talking about the ram 2500 that has 6 cupholders for a 2 passenger truck or the subaru ascent with 17 cupholders? But in all seriousness Europe and America are just two TOTALLY different markets. Europe will never want an F150 because it guzzles fuel, won't fit anywhere and doesn't come in a manual, or as Europeans would call it, a standard transmission. You did hit the nail on the head though. Highway cruisers and aggressive stop and go cars are popular in america because those are the two main driving conditions, vs Europe where highways are shorter and cities are less stop and go and more crawling. So a low HP engine that takes forever to get going, if it even can, isn't really an issue. I am sure though that people on the autobahn were scared shitless the first time a hellcat rolled down it at 320kph. Also watched a video from car throttle where he drives a hummer through urban Britain and you can see people are genuinely terrified of the thing vs in america where guys in F250's all over the place wouldn't even think twice about it.
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16: 35 so are you talking about the ram 2500 that has 6 cupholders for a 2 passenger truck or the subaru ascent with 17 cupholders? But in all seriousness Europe and America are just two TOTALLY different markets. Europe will never want an F150 because it guzzles fuel, won't fit anywhere and doesn't come in a manual, or as Europeans would call it, a standard transmission. You did hit the nail on the head though. Highway cruisers and aggressive stop and go cars are popular in america because those are the two main driving conditions, vs Europe where highways are shorter and cities are less stop and go and more crawling. So a low HP engine that takes forever to get going, if it even can, isn't really an issue. I am sure though that people on the autobahn were scared shitless the first time a hellcat rolled down it at 320kph. Also watched a video from car throttle where he drives a hummer through urban Britain and you can see people are genuinely terrified of the thing vs in america where guys in F250's all over the place wouldn't even think twice about it.
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Radek Narozny
As a small European OEM engineer, the American culture is considered very litigations by our standards. Dealing with US customers (or rather their money chasing lawyers) requires an expensive US local legal department and can in the worst case bankrupt a small company. Related to that is the certification system in US (self certification, completely alien to European (and Chinese. Europe has a system of witness testing, where regularly compliance is demonstrated by an OEM in front of a government appointed inspectors and results in official certification, issued by government agencies. In US an OEM has an obligation to interpret the (non emission related) regulations and conduct all tests to prove compliance on their own. The results and evidence does not have to be presented to the US government, until something like unintended acceleration happens and lawyers start asking questions. Its a big risk and turn off for small car companies
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As a small European OEM engineer, the American culture is considered very litigations by our standards. Dealing with US customers (or rather their money chasing lawyers) requires an expensive US local legal department and can in the worst case bankrupt a small company. Related to that is the certification system in US (self certification, completely alien to European (and Chinese. Europe has a system of witness testing, where regularly compliance is demonstrated by an OEM in front of a government appointed inspectors and results in official certification, issued by government agencies. In US an OEM has an obligation to interpret the (non emission related) regulations and conduct all tests to prove compliance on their own. The results and evidence does not have to be presented to the US government, until something like unintended acceleration happens and lawyers start asking questions. Its a big risk and turn off for small car companies
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Zhenocnra
Maybe I'm paranoid but I'm glad we have larger roads (sometimes with paved shoulders depending on city/state/county) and relatively larger parking spaces. I love my car so I usually try to find a spot that's much farther away from everyone else in most parking situations. When that isn't an option, trying to find a parking spot in tiny, crowded parking garages or lots is a nightmare even though I drive a CUV. This is exactly why I want BIGGER residential garages with wider openings and wider areas inside the garages. Honestly, I'm looking at buying homes with 4 garage spaces joined together for a two car household for exactly this reason. Don't even get me started on standard household driveways in America, lol. I'm really interested in Alex trying out Japan with Kei cars and larger cars. And hopefully you skip China as I do prefer you be safe rather than curious when it comes to China's roads (and highways.
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Maybe I'm paranoid but I'm glad we have larger roads (sometimes with paved shoulders depending on city/state/county) and relatively larger parking spaces. I love my car so I usually try to find a spot that's much farther away from everyone else in most parking situations. When that isn't an option, trying to find a parking spot in tiny, crowded parking garages or lots is a nightmare even though I drive a CUV. This is exactly why I want BIGGER residential garages with wider openings and wider areas inside the garages. Honestly, I'm looking at buying homes with 4 garage spaces joined together for a two car household for exactly this reason. Don't even get me started on standard household driveways in America, lol. I'm really interested in Alex trying out Japan with Kei cars and larger cars. And hopefully you skip China as I do prefer you be safe rather than curious when it comes to China's roads (and highways.
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rjbiker66
I think Australia is a market that mixes preferences or both Europe and USA. We get the small cars from Europe but in general we get the larger powerplants. Our Golf gets the most powerful 1. 4l engine with 110kw. same as your Jetta. A Peugeot 208 ( Mazda 2 sized) comes to our market with the more powerful 82kw 1. 2l turbo with a 6 speed auto. In Europe that would be an expensive variant. The problem you raised is that lots of small euro cars are manuals and until recently couldn't be has with a decent automatic. Usually there was an option of a crappy automated manual. Now that euros are finally fitting half decent autos then they are able to compete against Japanese small cars. In the small/medium SUV market here (tiguan etc) it's the euros that have a performance advantage. Japanese SUVs have insipid 2/2. 5l petrol engines whilst cars like the Tiguan have an available 2l 169kw engine (golf GTI)
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I think Australia is a market that mixes preferences or both Europe and USA. We get the small cars from Europe but in general we get the larger powerplants. Our Golf gets the most powerful 1. 4l engine with 110kw. same as your Jetta. A Peugeot 208 ( Mazda 2 sized) comes to our market with the more powerful 82kw 1. 2l turbo with a 6 speed auto. In Europe that would be an expensive variant. The problem you raised is that lots of small euro cars are manuals and until recently couldn't be has with a decent automatic. Usually there was an option of a crappy automated manual. Now that euros are finally fitting half decent autos then they are able to compete against Japanese small cars. In the small/medium SUV market here (tiguan etc) it's the euros that have a performance advantage. Japanese SUVs have insipid 2/2. 5l petrol engines whilst cars like the Tiguan have an available 2l 169kw engine (golf GTI)
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Richard Szuban
I would not buy small European car. I have been living in Germany for the past four years (finally going back to US. It is true that majority of vehicles sold here are smaller than those in America but it is due mostly to gas prices, not parking spaces. There are actually quite a few Durangos, Grand Cherokees, Rams, Edges and few other ones driven here on German Autobahns. Some are sold with European specs (mostly diesel engines) but some are imported to EU with US specs. What they do with these vehicles is they convert them to LPG. That cuts the costs of fueling by about 40-50%. The only European vehicles that could potentially make sense to sell in North America would be the wagons as not everyone likes big SUVs. Almost every European manufacturer sells one in Europe. I particularly happen to like Mazda6 wagon that is being sold in Europe but is not available in USA.
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I would not buy small European car. I have been living in Germany for the past four years (finally going back to US. It is true that majority of vehicles sold here are smaller than those in America but it is due mostly to gas prices, not parking spaces. There are actually quite a few Durangos, Grand Cherokees, Rams, Edges and few other ones driven here on German Autobahns. Some are sold with European specs (mostly diesel engines) but some are imported to EU with US specs. What they do with these vehicles is they convert them to LPG. That cuts the costs of fueling by about 40-50%. The only European vehicles that could potentially make sense to sell in North America would be the wagons as not everyone likes big SUVs. Almost every European manufacturer sells one in Europe. I particularly happen to like Mazda6 wagon that is being sold in Europe but is not available in USA.
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JBM425
You left out one important detail: differences between European and American safety standards. That has probably evolved over the years to lessen some of the differences, but the cost of modifying vehicles to meet safety and environmental standards for North American sale is not cheap, and manufacturers have to take that into consideration. Expensive cars like the Mercedes and BMW can justify that cost, but that might be a different proposition for smaller cars that won't sell in enough volume to make it profitable to import those cars. That's also why there are grey market auto importers at US ports-of-entry that retrofit Euro-spec vehicles to meet those same standards before Customs will allow the vehicles out of the port. The cost of that process means the car had better be worth it. (And guess what happens to vehicles that fail the Customs inspection)
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You left out one important detail: differences between European and American safety standards. That has probably evolved over the years to lessen some of the differences, but the cost of modifying vehicles to meet safety and environmental standards for North American sale is not cheap, and manufacturers have to take that into consideration. Expensive cars like the Mercedes and BMW can justify that cost, but that might be a different proposition for smaller cars that won't sell in enough volume to make it profitable to import those cars. That's also why there are grey market auto importers at US ports-of-entry that retrofit Euro-spec vehicles to meet those same standards before Customs will allow the vehicles out of the port. The cost of that process means the car had better be worth it. (And guess what happens to vehicles that fail the Customs inspection)
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Edgar Renje
Actually cars for the European market do get larger over their generations. For instance: the first VW Golf was a large as the nowadays Polo. Of course that's also the case in America, but I think you guys over there started with bigger cars. You love pickups, while they're very rare here. We just don't need them. It's also connected to different cultures, which evolved. You just have to look at a map to see what's different. But we don't have only narrow streets between old city parts. That's as well as a cliche as you guys f don't walk a few meters, but drive them. Your lifestyle in cities is different than outside of them. Here in Europe the differences are not that big. In Asia, especially Japan, cars are even smaller, again, because they don't have the space there.
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Actually cars for the European market do get larger over their generations. For instance: the first VW Golf was a large as the nowadays Polo. Of course that's also the case in America, but I think you guys over there started with bigger cars. You love pickups, while they're very rare here. We just don't need them. It's also connected to different cultures, which evolved. You just have to look at a map to see what's different. But we don't have only narrow streets between old city parts. That's as well as a cliche as you guys f don't walk a few meters, but drive them. Your lifestyle in cities is different than outside of them. Here in Europe the differences are not that big. In Asia, especially Japan, cars are even smaller, again, because they don't have the space there.
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Karl P
The most important point you make is the fact that increasing size of body or engine for that matter has nowhere near a proportional increase in cost. Apart from the area rule, cost of steel is not very high. But due to road and parking size limitations, the Europeans are forced into smaller cars in general. That means they put a premium on larger cars, their manufacturers know this and charge )accordingly. A slightly larger car costs disproportionately more for no objective reason. When they service the American market they have to take a reality check and can only charge a realistic amount for their larger cars, that's why a lot of Europeans feel ripped off (which they are) when they see what say a Passat costs in America versus what they pay.
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The most important point you make is the fact that increasing size of body or engine for that matter has nowhere near a proportional increase in cost. Apart from the area rule, cost of steel is not very high. But due to road and parking size limitations, the Europeans are forced into smaller cars in general. That means they put a premium on larger cars, their manufacturers know this and charge )accordingly. A slightly larger car costs disproportionately more for no objective reason. When they service the American market they have to take a reality check and can only charge a realistic amount for their larger cars, that's why a lot of Europeans feel ripped off (which they are) when they see what say a Passat costs in America versus what they pay.
reply
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