Why is Los Angeles traffic so bad?
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Date: 2021-05-07
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Comments and reviews: 9
Lorryslorryss
The linked video very briefly mentions how better alternatives, ie public transport, helps reduce this induced demand. But it kind of poo-poos it as a solution. Wrongly.
Here's the thing. They say, in isolation, people changing to public transport might just mean drivers replacing them, because the roads just got faster. That's what induced demand does. But what they fail to understand is that the existence of public transport places a cap on how slow driving can be, depending on how fast public transport is. No-one is going to drive if it's much worse than the bus or train. If people move to public transport, not in isolation, but because it has improved, they won't be replaced because the cap has changed. It's the Downs Thomson paradox and Not just bikes does a good video on it called Do Your Buses Get Stuck in Traffic? .
This just makes things worse for LA though. Since the buses get stuck in traffic, the slower car traffic gets, the slower public transport gets. There is no cap, there is no stable equilibrium, only a death spiral. I went to LA once and tried to drive to go see the Hollywood sign, and just gave up because it wasn't worth it.
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The linked video very briefly mentions how better alternatives, ie public transport, helps reduce this induced demand. But it kind of poo-poos it as a solution. Wrongly.
Here's the thing. They say, in isolation, people changing to public transport might just mean drivers replacing them, because the roads just got faster. That's what induced demand does. But what they fail to understand is that the existence of public transport places a cap on how slow driving can be, depending on how fast public transport is. No-one is going to drive if it's much worse than the bus or train. If people move to public transport, not in isolation, but because it has improved, they won't be replaced because the cap has changed. It's the Downs Thomson paradox and Not just bikes does a good video on it called Do Your Buses Get Stuck in Traffic? .
This just makes things worse for LA though. Since the buses get stuck in traffic, the slower car traffic gets, the slower public transport gets. There is no cap, there is no stable equilibrium, only a death spiral. I went to LA once and tried to drive to go see the Hollywood sign, and just gave up because it wasn't worth it.
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James
I'm from a small city down south and took a job with my company establishing some new accounts of ours in the LA metro area in 2000. I'd lived in Dallas for a few years, so I was accustomed to heavy traffic. However, nothing prepares you for LA. I was headquartered in Buena Park and on one of my off days I decided to venture into Hollywood and it's surrounding areas to sight see. This was on a Sunday. Once I decided to head back I found myself at Whilshire and the 405. I only had an atlas but saw the 405 would take me about 19 miles around to Beach Blvd in Orange Co and from there I could get back to the hotel in Buena Park. Took me nearly 5 hours. On a Sunday. Broke me from ever going back to LA.
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I'm from a small city down south and took a job with my company establishing some new accounts of ours in the LA metro area in 2000. I'd lived in Dallas for a few years, so I was accustomed to heavy traffic. However, nothing prepares you for LA. I was headquartered in Buena Park and on one of my off days I decided to venture into Hollywood and it's surrounding areas to sight see. This was on a Sunday. Once I decided to head back I found myself at Whilshire and the 405. I only had an atlas but saw the 405 would take me about 19 miles around to Beach Blvd in Orange Co and from there I could get back to the hotel in Buena Park. Took me nearly 5 hours. On a Sunday. Broke me from ever going back to LA.
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Delta
I'm a bit confused. Though I certainly understand the point of the video, I am not sure if it really addresses why L. A. specifically has such bad traffic. It seems really odd to me that cities with a similar dependence on freeways have much better traffic, especially considering that as I understand it L. A. actually has a relatively high population to freeway lane mile ratio (I could be wrong on this though. L. A. seems clearly special in this regard, and it's particularly notable when compared to its equally (or more) freeway/car-dependant neighbors: the bay area and San Diego, which appear to have much better traffic. I feel like there is something missing, or am I missing something?
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I'm a bit confused. Though I certainly understand the point of the video, I am not sure if it really addresses why L. A. specifically has such bad traffic. It seems really odd to me that cities with a similar dependence on freeways have much better traffic, especially considering that as I understand it L. A. actually has a relatively high population to freeway lane mile ratio (I could be wrong on this though. L. A. seems clearly special in this regard, and it's particularly notable when compared to its equally (or more) freeway/car-dependant neighbors: the bay area and San Diego, which appear to have much better traffic. I feel like there is something missing, or am I missing something?
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lohphat
Born and raised in SoCal. I left in 1994 when rush hours started touching midday. Moved to SF for work. Muni and BART and VTA are teh suxxorz.
Finally moved to NYC when Bay Area traffic became intolerable; I had a 72mi r/t commute per day, 45m by car at 6am or 2h15m by transit EACH WAY. So I gave away the car and motorcycle, sold the house and moved. I walk, and bike most places, subway otherwise or Via/Lyft when I have to. I've rented a car ONCE in 6 years being here.
More in my pocket each month.
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Born and raised in SoCal. I left in 1994 when rush hours started touching midday. Moved to SF for work. Muni and BART and VTA are teh suxxorz.
Finally moved to NYC when Bay Area traffic became intolerable; I had a 72mi r/t commute per day, 45m by car at 6am or 2h15m by transit EACH WAY. So I gave away the car and motorcycle, sold the house and moved. I walk, and bike most places, subway otherwise or Via/Lyft when I have to. I've rented a car ONCE in 6 years being here.
More in my pocket each month.
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Maxime
This is interesting! So the reason US freeways are blasted through the middle of cities is that they desperately needed to build more avenues and expressways but they simply couldn't skip out on the buy one get nine free of the interstate highway act. It's kinda sad, US cities would be much nicer if the roads suited the environment. Suddenly it makes a lot of sense to me, not just why they built so many freeways but why they all passed through the centre of town and look so ugly!
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This is interesting! So the reason US freeways are blasted through the middle of cities is that they desperately needed to build more avenues and expressways but they simply couldn't skip out on the buy one get nine free of the interstate highway act. It's kinda sad, US cities would be much nicer if the roads suited the environment. Suddenly it makes a lot of sense to me, not just why they built so many freeways but why they all passed through the centre of town and look so ugly!
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Linuxman777
There are only 2 really effective ways to resolve traffic, and Public Transit isn't one of them, Public Transit is good, but it does not help traffic, it just means traffic can only get so bad. The real ways you fix traffic are through Mixed use development, and a well connected street network, and even then geography might give you problems, like here in Pittsburgh, the hills and rivers make traffic so horrible, but there is nothing we can do about it.
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There are only 2 really effective ways to resolve traffic, and Public Transit isn't one of them, Public Transit is good, but it does not help traffic, it just means traffic can only get so bad. The real ways you fix traffic are through Mixed use development, and a well connected street network, and even then geography might give you problems, like here in Pittsburgh, the hills and rivers make traffic so horrible, but there is nothing we can do about it.
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Alfonso
I understand induced demand but I m not sure having the capacity for more people to arrive at their destinations is necessarily a negative. If you view it through the narrow lens that original drivers will have the same drive time then maybe. But surely getting more people to and from their destination increases overall utility and economic activity. Maybe I m missing something, thanks!
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I understand induced demand but I m not sure having the capacity for more people to arrive at their destinations is necessarily a negative. If you view it through the narrow lens that original drivers will have the same drive time then maybe. But surely getting more people to and from their destination increases overall utility and economic activity. Maybe I m missing something, thanks!
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nlpnt
The biggest problem with the pre-existing tram system was that it had been built to sell the land and houses along it and once those were sold out of the original developer's hands there was no ongoing self-sustaining funding source. Urban mass transit runs as a loss-leading community attractant/amenity generally, but a private developer can't afford to float it like the government can.
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The biggest problem with the pre-existing tram system was that it had been built to sell the land and houses along it and once those were sold out of the original developer's hands there was no ongoing self-sustaining funding source. Urban mass transit runs as a loss-leading community attractant/amenity generally, but a private developer can't afford to float it like the government can.
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Jacques
About the concept of induced demand with respect to more freeways, I get that more of that can create more demand, but does it work when applied in different ways?
For example, I wonder whether:
the inverse is true: does reducing freeways/lanes reduce congestion?
generally speaking, when, if ever, is expanding freeways/increasing lanes warranted then?
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About the concept of induced demand with respect to more freeways, I get that more of that can create more demand, but does it work when applied in different ways?
For example, I wonder whether:
the inverse is true: does reducing freeways/lanes reduce congestion?
generally speaking, when, if ever, is expanding freeways/increasing lanes warranted then?
reply
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