Fresno is removing its pedestrian mall. Will it save downtown?
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Date: 2019-09-12
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Comments and reviews: 10
yacetube
Planning should not be only about business: america's long time mistake, still going on, while developed world grows on. This clearly shows America's flawed short term business vision. The country really is all about business and economics. And by nature, it's unstable, it changes all the time American city neighbourhoods, downtown thriving, then declining, then thriving again. that's america, because of the importance of business and low importance of physical geography, it changes all the time. (whilst european and world downtowns have been more or less lively for centuries. with ups and downs, but weren't abandonned and are lively today, with remaining pedestrian streets, old architecture and old streets grid. American planners always try to look for what is best for business. Pedestrian street, removing pedestrian street. putting it back. who knows, with E. Musk's cars, maybe removing it, and in a 50 years, putting it back again. Whatever time does on cities, cities are still here, don't adapt them to a ephemeral today's economic trend, just make them better, they're the place you live inThe fact is city planning shouldn't be business planning. It's more complex: business should be taken into acount, but not ONLY. Because, business, work, is a PART of life, but not the only thing. When it comes to building, physical features, city planning, . planners should be here to give a long term vision, more complexe, less money oriented, looking towards a more idealistic vision: not what business needs right NOW, but, what do we WANT? Pedestrian, not pedestrian? Pick one goddammit, . cities are about human beings, not JUST business. Pick a vision of how the world should be, stop changing all the time, or you will never know if what you did was a good idea or not. Give it some time. Cities don't just work or dont work. Business come on go. Trends, and people, consumers, inhabitants behaviour come and go. Adapt your cities to what you THINK they should be. And wait.
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Planning should not be only about business: america's long time mistake, still going on, while developed world grows on. This clearly shows America's flawed short term business vision. The country really is all about business and economics. And by nature, it's unstable, it changes all the time American city neighbourhoods, downtown thriving, then declining, then thriving again. that's america, because of the importance of business and low importance of physical geography, it changes all the time. (whilst european and world downtowns have been more or less lively for centuries. with ups and downs, but weren't abandonned and are lively today, with remaining pedestrian streets, old architecture and old streets grid. American planners always try to look for what is best for business. Pedestrian street, removing pedestrian street. putting it back. who knows, with E. Musk's cars, maybe removing it, and in a 50 years, putting it back again. Whatever time does on cities, cities are still here, don't adapt them to a ephemeral today's economic trend, just make them better, they're the place you live inThe fact is city planning shouldn't be business planning. It's more complex: business should be taken into acount, but not ONLY. Because, business, work, is a PART of life, but not the only thing. When it comes to building, physical features, city planning, . planners should be here to give a long term vision, more complexe, less money oriented, looking towards a more idealistic vision: not what business needs right NOW, but, what do we WANT? Pedestrian, not pedestrian? Pick one goddammit, . cities are about human beings, not JUST business. Pick a vision of how the world should be, stop changing all the time, or you will never know if what you did was a good idea or not. Give it some time. Cities don't just work or dont work. Business come on go. Trends, and people, consumers, inhabitants behaviour come and go. Adapt your cities to what you THINK they should be. And wait.
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Riley O'Neill
You had some great footage of my Downtown Riverside Mall from back in the day. I feel we had a very interesting issue with our downtown mall. During the business week the legal industry and government workers and other office workers take up nearly all of the parking downtown. So businesses are struggling to do daytime business because of the lack of customers. Customers don't show up because parking is difficult and often expensive. However at night and on the weekends parking is generally plentiful and free. But for whatever reason its not the huge destination it could be. However, something that is now starting to change is that they are building housing on the mall. One building in particular has a ground level that is commercial and then 5 or so floors (I believe its around 100 total bedrooms) above it. So now the commercial area is slowly becoming a neighborhood and its not just a place where people work or perhaps do a little bit of shopping but a place where people live. My only issue is that I think it should have been 12 floors and 250 bedrooms and they need to build several more along the mall so there is perhaps 2000-3000 people living on the mall. The idea is not for people to drive from the suburb to downtown, fight for a parking space, pay for parking, and then experience the mall but instead people already live there.
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You had some great footage of my Downtown Riverside Mall from back in the day. I feel we had a very interesting issue with our downtown mall. During the business week the legal industry and government workers and other office workers take up nearly all of the parking downtown. So businesses are struggling to do daytime business because of the lack of customers. Customers don't show up because parking is difficult and often expensive. However at night and on the weekends parking is generally plentiful and free. But for whatever reason its not the huge destination it could be. However, something that is now starting to change is that they are building housing on the mall. One building in particular has a ground level that is commercial and then 5 or so floors (I believe its around 100 total bedrooms) above it. So now the commercial area is slowly becoming a neighborhood and its not just a place where people work or perhaps do a little bit of shopping but a place where people live. My only issue is that I think it should have been 12 floors and 250 bedrooms and they need to build several more along the mall so there is perhaps 2000-3000 people living on the mall. The idea is not for people to drive from the suburb to downtown, fight for a parking space, pay for parking, and then experience the mall but instead people already live there.
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FreewayBrent
I'm curious to see what happens when that entire strip is redeveloped. I pass through Fresno at least a few times per year, and right now, there's really no true go-to district in city that is walkable and full of character. Sure, there are some foodie and coffee gems within the city (I particularly love Kuppa Joy Coffee off North Echo St, and Valparaiso Cafe & Roastery in DT Fresno. The Tower District is probably the closest thing you'll find to an area with character, featuring a concentration of restaurants, bars, cafes, shops, and the historic Tower Theater, but it's still lacking a bit in terms of having more businesses in the area. I suppose Old Town Clovis counts as well, but that's still in a completely separate city. Hopefully the city does the Fulton Street redevelopment correctly, and kicks off a development boom that spreads throughout the rest of downtown. There's a bunch of historic buildings in the downtown core that could be utilized to attract the city's residents. California's 5th largest metropolitan area (I'm lumping in the Inland Empire and Ventura County with Greater LA here) really needs a go-to district. Trendy restaurants, 3rd wave artisan coffeehouses, boutiques, cafes, gastropubs, etc. Stuff that will draw in the crowds and give the city some buzz.
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I'm curious to see what happens when that entire strip is redeveloped. I pass through Fresno at least a few times per year, and right now, there's really no true go-to district in city that is walkable and full of character. Sure, there are some foodie and coffee gems within the city (I particularly love Kuppa Joy Coffee off North Echo St, and Valparaiso Cafe & Roastery in DT Fresno. The Tower District is probably the closest thing you'll find to an area with character, featuring a concentration of restaurants, bars, cafes, shops, and the historic Tower Theater, but it's still lacking a bit in terms of having more businesses in the area. I suppose Old Town Clovis counts as well, but that's still in a completely separate city. Hopefully the city does the Fulton Street redevelopment correctly, and kicks off a development boom that spreads throughout the rest of downtown. There's a bunch of historic buildings in the downtown core that could be utilized to attract the city's residents. California's 5th largest metropolitan area (I'm lumping in the Inland Empire and Ventura County with Greater LA here) really needs a go-to district. Trendy restaurants, 3rd wave artisan coffeehouses, boutiques, cafes, gastropubs, etc. Stuff that will draw in the crowds and give the city some buzz.
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BlueHen123
You can't one size fits all for every city. I'm in Fresno and can report removing the pedestrian street has not worked and I can tell you why. In the old days, people lived near downtowns, had their jobs near downtowns and did their shopping near downtowns. This has changed. Now, aat least for Fresno, downtown is merely a place for government with City Hall, Courts and other associated business. The buildings are old and not much space for growth. Most businesses want new, fresh areas. Also, most want to be near the customers who are also choosing to live in newer areas, farther away from downtown. The city hoped to revitalize downtown was a mistake in thinking. It will never go back in time to what it was, because America will not go back to that way. Instead, they should have maximized downtown for what it is, a civic center of sorts. Building the ballpark was nice and a pedestrian mall would work great with it. So it's ironic the two happened near the same time. Any money spent on downtown is a waste. Unless it's to demolish the empty buildings and turn the land into parks. or perhaps a prison.
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You can't one size fits all for every city. I'm in Fresno and can report removing the pedestrian street has not worked and I can tell you why. In the old days, people lived near downtowns, had their jobs near downtowns and did their shopping near downtowns. This has changed. Now, aat least for Fresno, downtown is merely a place for government with City Hall, Courts and other associated business. The buildings are old and not much space for growth. Most businesses want new, fresh areas. Also, most want to be near the customers who are also choosing to live in newer areas, farther away from downtown. The city hoped to revitalize downtown was a mistake in thinking. It will never go back in time to what it was, because America will not go back to that way. Instead, they should have maximized downtown for what it is, a civic center of sorts. Building the ballpark was nice and a pedestrian mall would work great with it. So it's ironic the two happened near the same time. Any money spent on downtown is a waste. Unless it's to demolish the empty buildings and turn the land into parks. or perhaps a prison.
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James Miller
The main overriding factor of declining downtowns is crime and the expectation of crime or unsavory experiences there. The heart of a city generally follows the money if the city isn't large enough. A city like New York has money to burn so it has many centers of activity and business. Crime though also plays a role on how successful these areas are as well. In addition if the streets and buildings are not well maintained the neighborhood slowly attracts the unsavory element. Another huge problem with Fresno's downtown, the whole thing, is there are parking meters on every square centimeter of the streets, or so it seems. Finding parking wherever you go down there is a major task. If you don't know where the parking structures are you are pretty much out of luck. Odd that the city would say they want to revitalize downtown and have a parking meter standing guard to keep people from coming downtown. If you don't remember to bring quarters every time you go sorry charlie. Cities say in one breath they want people to come downtown and then do ten things to keep them away.
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The main overriding factor of declining downtowns is crime and the expectation of crime or unsavory experiences there. The heart of a city generally follows the money if the city isn't large enough. A city like New York has money to burn so it has many centers of activity and business. Crime though also plays a role on how successful these areas are as well. In addition if the streets and buildings are not well maintained the neighborhood slowly attracts the unsavory element. Another huge problem with Fresno's downtown, the whole thing, is there are parking meters on every square centimeter of the streets, or so it seems. Finding parking wherever you go down there is a major task. If you don't know where the parking structures are you are pretty much out of luck. Odd that the city would say they want to revitalize downtown and have a parking meter standing guard to keep people from coming downtown. If you don't remember to bring quarters every time you go sorry charlie. Cities say in one breath they want people to come downtown and then do ten things to keep them away.
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BaskingInObscurity
Putting form before function will usually lead to failure. If the function of a downtown does not change favorably, the form will do nothing to help and could even expedite its demise. Like any destination, there must be other reasons than lack of cars to attract people. What makes lesser amenities successful is facility of access. Businesses and residences bring people to a locale, conveniences and pleasant amenities keep them there for additional time. The reason strip malls worked is because people had to shop and they were closer to homes. Now even shopping in-person is barely necessary, so malls large and small are dying, too. Build it and they will come, was one of the dumbest notions perpetrated on society because it doesn't give a person reason to ever come back again. Seen it, done that is the typical response. A successful facility meets needs and thereby becomes an important and meaningful part of the users' lives. As long as a downtown remains irrelevant to the community it will fail to be anything more than just another neighborhood.
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Putting form before function will usually lead to failure. If the function of a downtown does not change favorably, the form will do nothing to help and could even expedite its demise. Like any destination, there must be other reasons than lack of cars to attract people. What makes lesser amenities successful is facility of access. Businesses and residences bring people to a locale, conveniences and pleasant amenities keep them there for additional time. The reason strip malls worked is because people had to shop and they were closer to homes. Now even shopping in-person is barely necessary, so malls large and small are dying, too. Build it and they will come, was one of the dumbest notions perpetrated on society because it doesn't give a person reason to ever come back again. Seen it, done that is the typical response. A successful facility meets needs and thereby becomes an important and meaningful part of the users' lives. As long as a downtown remains irrelevant to the community it will fail to be anything more than just another neighborhood.
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Andrzej Sienko
It's extremely amusing for me that in the United States you actually need an architect to come in and propose something obvious like the fact people who are shopping and dining don't want to be running between speeding cars with exhaust fumes flying in their faces. You have to laugh at the people sitting outside at expensive cafes or restaurants in Manhattan, next to idling diesel engines and garbage trucks going by, pretending they are in Paris or Berlin. Maybe it's because most of the old world cities were built around these spaces, previously called - and I know this is really obvious to some of you, right? - town squares. This lack of any public spaces for painfully clear for me growing up in Brooklyn. You were living among millions of people, and there is no central point for people to actually meet, dine, or shop for miles around - something that you took for granted in even the smallest European town. The fact these pedestrian shopping malls are failing only adds to the absurdity of the whole situation.
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It's extremely amusing for me that in the United States you actually need an architect to come in and propose something obvious like the fact people who are shopping and dining don't want to be running between speeding cars with exhaust fumes flying in their faces. You have to laugh at the people sitting outside at expensive cafes or restaurants in Manhattan, next to idling diesel engines and garbage trucks going by, pretending they are in Paris or Berlin. Maybe it's because most of the old world cities were built around these spaces, previously called - and I know this is really obvious to some of you, right? - town squares. This lack of any public spaces for painfully clear for me growing up in Brooklyn. You were living among millions of people, and there is no central point for people to actually meet, dine, or shop for miles around - something that you took for granted in even the smallest European town. The fact these pedestrian shopping malls are failing only adds to the absurdity of the whole situation.
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Glenn Williams
We are having an argument over what America was. The younger generation is coming back to the cities. Indoor malls are dying, the suburbs are falling out of favor, and that is a good thing. Name most major cities in America and they each are starting to build light rail systems. The Twin Cities, Seattle, Denver, Dallas, and so on. Light rail is helping to make walkable areas, higher density neighborhoods, and a way to get downtown and walk. Light rail is doable to some degree, whereas high speed rail hits the brakes due to initial costs. Streetcars are coming back to some cities. Street level light rail is definitely bringing back the America of the early half of the 20th century where live, work, play all was within walking distance of downtown or a streetcar line before World War II. Corner stores may stage a comeback along light rail lines and have.
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We are having an argument over what America was. The younger generation is coming back to the cities. Indoor malls are dying, the suburbs are falling out of favor, and that is a good thing. Name most major cities in America and they each are starting to build light rail systems. The Twin Cities, Seattle, Denver, Dallas, and so on. Light rail is helping to make walkable areas, higher density neighborhoods, and a way to get downtown and walk. Light rail is doable to some degree, whereas high speed rail hits the brakes due to initial costs. Streetcars are coming back to some cities. Street level light rail is definitely bringing back the America of the early half of the 20th century where live, work, play all was within walking distance of downtown or a streetcar line before World War II. Corner stores may stage a comeback along light rail lines and have.
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Bleach
Fresno Downtown sucks. Now, they could actually fix it in less than a decade, but they would need good highway access, convenient parking, and stuff to do. People from Clovis don't have a problem with downtown, it's the fact that all of us have been told to never go down there because of the homeless drug addicts and illegal immigrants that frequent the area. If it got cleaned up (Literally, got rid of the poor that lived there, got some bars and clubs to go to, got some great apartment areas, got some actual businesses that are useful and mean something, got parking and freeway access, as well as made the whole area into a pedestrian only space with no cars, then I'd actually take a trip down there. But until that happens, I'm going to enjoy Northeast Clovis and the hill country because somehow, there's stuff to do there but not in the actual City itself.
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Fresno Downtown sucks. Now, they could actually fix it in less than a decade, but they would need good highway access, convenient parking, and stuff to do. People from Clovis don't have a problem with downtown, it's the fact that all of us have been told to never go down there because of the homeless drug addicts and illegal immigrants that frequent the area. If it got cleaned up (Literally, got rid of the poor that lived there, got some bars and clubs to go to, got some great apartment areas, got some actual businesses that are useful and mean something, got parking and freeway access, as well as made the whole area into a pedestrian only space with no cars, then I'd actually take a trip down there. But until that happens, I'm going to enjoy Northeast Clovis and the hill country because somehow, there's stuff to do there but not in the actual City itself.
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Evan Boulanger
Your map forgot about Memphis having one. It added a pedestrian mall along it's Main Street called the Mid America Mall (now just the Main Street Mall) in 1976 and it added trolleys along it in 1993. Businesses did die off due to several factors, one of which was the lack of vehicular traffic and parking, but mainly due to crime and lack of people living downtown/wanting to visit. Forty years later the northern end of the mall is still kind of stagnant, but the southern end has a bunch of restaurants and on a typical evening there are plenty of people out on it. Also along it and the whole thing has apartments/condos (one of which I live in. It is very walkable/bikable and if you want to drive a car, you just go a block over. I think it would be a mistake to remove the mall. The use of the street with/without the mall probably wouldn't change.
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Your map forgot about Memphis having one. It added a pedestrian mall along it's Main Street called the Mid America Mall (now just the Main Street Mall) in 1976 and it added trolleys along it in 1993. Businesses did die off due to several factors, one of which was the lack of vehicular traffic and parking, but mainly due to crime and lack of people living downtown/wanting to visit. Forty years later the northern end of the mall is still kind of stagnant, but the southern end has a bunch of restaurants and on a typical evening there are plenty of people out on it. Also along it and the whole thing has apartments/condos (one of which I live in. It is very walkable/bikable and if you want to drive a car, you just go a block over. I think it would be a mistake to remove the mall. The use of the street with/without the mall probably wouldn't change.
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