The TGV under all the angles! TGV 40th anniversary special video
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Date: 2024-01-09
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Comments and reviews: 35
-4getabout
There is some quite complex reasoning why Siemens does not use Jakobs bogies, which in essence boils down to the different topography of the french TGV vs. the german ICE network:
A Jakobs bogie means there are fewer wheel sets to carry the weight of your train. You do not want that as it f---s up your track, so you have to compensate for that fact by having more, shorter coaches (notice how short the coaches are in this video. This in turn reduces capacity, since more coaches mean more gangway connections, where you can-t put any seats. You can again compensate for this by making your train a double decker train, like the TGV Duplex.
So why doesn-t DB simply buy the excellent TGV Duplex?
Because the TGV Duplex works very well on the Paris centered TGV Network and not quite so well on the polycentric german ICE network: By adding a second deck to your train you have drastically increased the number of passengers per door, causing a significant increase in the time it takes to board your train (having to climb a set of stairs does not help either. This is no big issue in France, because Paris, where almost all TGVs terminate in some way, is pretty much the only place in the network where the entire train would want to embark or disembark. Not so in Germany, because the network is not centered on one city. This means that on longer journeys the passengers on one ICE train may be exchanged multiple times over. For example, a train running from Hamburg to Munich will stop in Berlin, Leipzig or Halle, Erfurt and Nuremberg. Each of the stops I just mentioned is a major hub in the ICE network, meaning that at each and every single one of these stops a large proportion of the passengers might choose to disembark or to embark. Using a double decker train would mean that the train would have to stop longer and that the time being lost by this would have to be regained somewhere else, which costs a sh-t ton of money. Which is why the ICE 4 follows the exact opposite approach: The coaches are as narrow as on the tilting ICE-T even though the train does not tilt at all. This allows the coaches to be -2m longer than the UIC X or Z standard. This means fewer gangway connections and thus more capacity. The result: A 13 coach ICE 4 train (374 m) has almost the same capacity as two TGV Duplex units (2x 200m); 920 vs. 2x508=1016 seats, without the need for longer stops associated with double decker trains.
One more quick note: Why does DB run double decker Inter City 2 trains then? These are meant for low priority, slower connections: At major hubs the IC2 trains will arrive before and leave after the ICE trains, allowing enough time for boarding.
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There is some quite complex reasoning why Siemens does not use Jakobs bogies, which in essence boils down to the different topography of the french TGV vs. the german ICE network:
A Jakobs bogie means there are fewer wheel sets to carry the weight of your train. You do not want that as it f---s up your track, so you have to compensate for that fact by having more, shorter coaches (notice how short the coaches are in this video. This in turn reduces capacity, since more coaches mean more gangway connections, where you can-t put any seats. You can again compensate for this by making your train a double decker train, like the TGV Duplex.
So why doesn-t DB simply buy the excellent TGV Duplex?
Because the TGV Duplex works very well on the Paris centered TGV Network and not quite so well on the polycentric german ICE network: By adding a second deck to your train you have drastically increased the number of passengers per door, causing a significant increase in the time it takes to board your train (having to climb a set of stairs does not help either. This is no big issue in France, because Paris, where almost all TGVs terminate in some way, is pretty much the only place in the network where the entire train would want to embark or disembark. Not so in Germany, because the network is not centered on one city. This means that on longer journeys the passengers on one ICE train may be exchanged multiple times over. For example, a train running from Hamburg to Munich will stop in Berlin, Leipzig or Halle, Erfurt and Nuremberg. Each of the stops I just mentioned is a major hub in the ICE network, meaning that at each and every single one of these stops a large proportion of the passengers might choose to disembark or to embark. Using a double decker train would mean that the train would have to stop longer and that the time being lost by this would have to be regained somewhere else, which costs a sh-t ton of money. Which is why the ICE 4 follows the exact opposite approach: The coaches are as narrow as on the tilting ICE-T even though the train does not tilt at all. This allows the coaches to be -2m longer than the UIC X or Z standard. This means fewer gangway connections and thus more capacity. The result: A 13 coach ICE 4 train (374 m) has almost the same capacity as two TGV Duplex units (2x 200m); 920 vs. 2x508=1016 seats, without the need for longer stops associated with double decker trains.
One more quick note: Why does DB run double decker Inter City 2 trains then? These are meant for low priority, slower connections: At major hubs the IC2 trains will arrive before and leave after the ICE trains, allowing enough time for boarding.
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-victorMD11
Wait, so Patrick and Sophie (01 and 02) weren't the first TGVs? Or the 15 was the first non -prototype- or regular serial production? :D
Also, I'm so glad I was able to explore several of these beauties in Culoz, where, sadly, they were being dismantled. I loved the interior, so comfortable and timeless, in my opinion. The first class seats were incredibly comfortable. In fact, I asked the workers in Culoz if I could take one first class seat to my house, back when I was living in Bellegarde, because of my job at CERN, they said yes and even helped me carry it to the car, nice guys. So now, after cleaning the seat, I have the comfiest computer chair, and a beautiful piece of history. So many good memories of the PSEs. I always liked to drive my visiting friends and family to this place. They also have the Eurostar trainsets, which are incredibly long. XD
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Wait, so Patrick and Sophie (01 and 02) weren't the first TGVs? Or the 15 was the first non -prototype- or regular serial production? :D
Also, I'm so glad I was able to explore several of these beauties in Culoz, where, sadly, they were being dismantled. I loved the interior, so comfortable and timeless, in my opinion. The first class seats were incredibly comfortable. In fact, I asked the workers in Culoz if I could take one first class seat to my house, back when I was living in Bellegarde, because of my job at CERN, they said yes and even helped me carry it to the car, nice guys. So now, after cleaning the seat, I have the comfiest computer chair, and a beautiful piece of history. So many good memories of the PSEs. I always liked to drive my visiting friends and family to this place. They also have the Eurostar trainsets, which are incredibly long. XD
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train
I think the problem with Jacobs bogies when marketing a train for international markets is the fact that it can be a little harder to lengthen a tran set but in my defense, lengthening a distributed traction MU train isn't much harder than this. Also, while it's sad to see these trains go, the main factor why older trains must be retired is due to the quality of the equipment onboard. Handling 25kV and travelling at 300km/h for 40 years of service will wear down the electronics and mechanics over time to the point where replacing these trains with new trains with newer and much more efficient technologies is a better investment in the long run. Look on the bright side though, if these trains are to be scrapped, basically the entire train can be reused to create the next generation of TGVs
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I think the problem with Jacobs bogies when marketing a train for international markets is the fact that it can be a little harder to lengthen a tran set but in my defense, lengthening a distributed traction MU train isn't much harder than this. Also, while it's sad to see these trains go, the main factor why older trains must be retired is due to the quality of the equipment onboard. Handling 25kV and travelling at 300km/h for 40 years of service will wear down the electronics and mechanics over time to the point where replacing these trains with new trains with newer and much more efficient technologies is a better investment in the long run. Look on the bright side though, if these trains are to be scrapped, basically the entire train can be reused to create the next generation of TGVs
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-sjokomelk
You wonder why Siemens doesn't use Jacobs Bogies on the Velaro - That is because of motors on the bogies. The TGV is a conventional push-pull type train with a locomotive in both ends. The Velaro is an EMU with distributed power thru out the entire train. So if you want a bogie to have motors, it is much easier to have it as a -normal- bogie. Just look at the Stadler Flirt 200 in Norway. The normal Flirt has 2 bogies with motors. One in each end of the trainset, and Jacobs bogies between. But on the 5 wagon Flirt in Norway there is a third bogie with motors in the middle. And that bogie is not a Jacobs bogie. So my guess is that Siemens has chosen normal bogies all over to make everything simpler and easier, and not having a mix og normal and Jacobs bogies on their train.
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You wonder why Siemens doesn't use Jacobs Bogies on the Velaro - That is because of motors on the bogies. The TGV is a conventional push-pull type train with a locomotive in both ends. The Velaro is an EMU with distributed power thru out the entire train. So if you want a bogie to have motors, it is much easier to have it as a -normal- bogie. Just look at the Stadler Flirt 200 in Norway. The normal Flirt has 2 bogies with motors. One in each end of the trainset, and Jacobs bogies between. But on the 5 wagon Flirt in Norway there is a third bogie with motors in the middle. And that bogie is not a Jacobs bogie. So my guess is that Siemens has chosen normal bogies all over to make everything simpler and easier, and not having a mix og normal and Jacobs bogies on their train.
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-AndrewG1989
The TGVs are the most iconic and reliable electric high speed trains in Europe. This is what the UK needs to compete with Europe and Asia. As HS2 is under construction and is schedule to be completed before 2030. And new high speed trains to be built for HS2 and will be longer than the 11-Car Class 390 Pendolinos and 12-Car Thameslink Class 700/1 Desiro City and 12-Car Greater Anglia Class 745/0/1 Flirts.
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The TGVs are the most iconic and reliable electric high speed trains in Europe. This is what the UK needs to compete with Europe and Asia. As HS2 is under construction and is schedule to be completed before 2030. And new high speed trains to be built for HS2 and will be longer than the 11-Car Class 390 Pendolinos and 12-Car Thameslink Class 700/1 Desiro City and 12-Car Greater Anglia Class 745/0/1 Flirts.
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-EpicThe112
Some of the TGV PSE are 15kv 16. 7hz CFF equipment with Integra Signum ZUB123 Sifa. Looks like VACMA switch is different from TGV Duplex and Euroduplex 15kv 16. 7hz Deutsche Bahn enabled. For Euroduplex the DC Pantograph is used to power 15kv 16. 7hz Deutsche Bahn. Not sure if Benjamin is familiar with that operation TGV running into Germany with PZB the Deutsche Bahn Netze equivalent to SNCF KVB
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Some of the TGV PSE are 15kv 16. 7hz CFF equipment with Integra Signum ZUB123 Sifa. Looks like VACMA switch is different from TGV Duplex and Euroduplex 15kv 16. 7hz Deutsche Bahn enabled. For Euroduplex the DC Pantograph is used to power 15kv 16. 7hz Deutsche Bahn. Not sure if Benjamin is familiar with that operation TGV running into Germany with PZB the Deutsche Bahn Netze equivalent to SNCF KVB
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-waynej747
The problem with those bogies is that if you have a carriage that has a fault, the whole train has to come out of service. Whereas with traditional bogie configurations a faulty carriage can be changed out and the rest of the vehicle can be put back into service.
This is why more modern trains have reverted to the two bogies per carriage model.
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The problem with those bogies is that if you have a carriage that has a fault, the whole train has to come out of service. Whereas with traditional bogie configurations a faulty carriage can be changed out and the rest of the vehicle can be put back into service.
This is why more modern trains have reverted to the two bogies per carriage model.
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-mj1234321
Very cool overview! Sort of a shame to see them retired already, but then I guess 40 years is a pretty good run. I hear that a couple of Acela sets here in the States are already retired and sitting in storage at Bear, Delaware. I guess 20 years is an okay run for an overweight, unreliable HST but I'm still kind of sad to see the 1st gen Acela go!
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Very cool overview! Sort of a shame to see them retired already, but then I guess 40 years is a pretty good run. I hear that a couple of Acela sets here in the States are already retired and sitting in storage at Bear, Delaware. I guess 20 years is an okay run for an overweight, unreliable HST but I'm still kind of sad to see the 1st gen Acela go!
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-bos2pdx2yvr
Wow, great video! Happy 40th to the TGV! When I was a kid in the 80s, I had a TGV (original orange livery) for my model railroad. It was my favourite train set. I-m so glad your commuting trips inspired all of your great videos. One question: is Benjamin the engineer also your brother Benjamin? Or are they two different people?
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Wow, great video! Happy 40th to the TGV! When I was a kid in the 80s, I had a TGV (original orange livery) for my model railroad. It was my favourite train set. I-m so glad your commuting trips inspired all of your great videos. One question: is Benjamin the engineer also your brother Benjamin? Or are they two different people?
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-zaerikk9761
It is so cool that the oldest TGVs are from the beginning of the 80s. In Czechia, we were getting at that time horrible coaches from Vaggonbau Bautzen, which most of us consider today as totally obsolete and no-way in modern rail transport. I cannot understand how those can be the same old as the first TGVs.
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It is so cool that the oldest TGVs are from the beginning of the 80s. In Czechia, we were getting at that time horrible coaches from Vaggonbau Bautzen, which most of us consider today as totally obsolete and no-way in modern rail transport. I cannot understand how those can be the same old as the first TGVs.
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-treinenliefde
Wow that must the only footage of existence of the small traction room in the first carriage that the PSE and Eurostar sets have! Shame there wasnt any room to film more, I was just thinking about that and researching for images (or even drawings) online last week.
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Wow that must the only footage of existence of the small traction room in the first carriage that the PSE and Eurostar sets have! Shame there wasnt any room to film more, I was just thinking about that and researching for images (or even drawings) online last week.
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-ageoflove1980
I can remember when i was a small boy, on a trip to Paris, my dad took me to the Gare de Lyon. I was amazed to see all these orange super futuristic trains and I supect my dad was a little too. Now he is an old man but he still enjoys his trains!
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I can remember when i was a small boy, on a trip to Paris, my dad took me to the Gare de Lyon. I was amazed to see all these orange super futuristic trains and I supect my dad was a little too. Now he is an old man but he still enjoys his trains!
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-user-he1rn5uu5w
Awesome video, always wonder how it was like in the cockpit. Would've love to see an interview with Monsieur Benjamin on how it was like to operate and manage the train!
The empty train feels a bit sad though, like an empty theme park.
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Awesome video, always wonder how it was like in the cockpit. Would've love to see an interview with Monsieur Benjamin on how it was like to operate and manage the train!
The empty train feels a bit sad though, like an empty theme park.
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-trainlagged
Absolutely awesome video. These trains were my whole childhood and I sorely miss them. A marvel of engineering, I'm still unsure as to why they should have been withdrawn when they could have had years more of life.
Beautiful hommage! :)
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Absolutely awesome video. These trains were my whole childhood and I sorely miss them. A marvel of engineering, I'm still unsure as to why they should have been withdrawn when they could have had years more of life.
Beautiful hommage! :)
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-olivieronrails
Cool tribute
Nice behind the scenes tour with #15!
Miss those a lot on Lille-Paris (especially the back support cushion in 1st class haha, although I do enjoy the plushy Tallon interiors of the Duplex series
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Cool tribute
Nice behind the scenes tour with #15!
Miss those a lot on Lille-Paris (especially the back support cushion in 1st class haha, although I do enjoy the plushy Tallon interiors of the Duplex series
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-lindavainomae3489
What a special tour - thanks! Such a lovely train and I hope it finds a good home. No. 15 seems to have an identity crisis - does not know whether it is a Renov 1 or 2: )
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What a special tour - thanks! Such a lovely train and I hope it finds a good home. No. 15 seems to have an identity crisis - does not know whether it is a Renov 1 or 2: )
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-chiragganguly
Thanks a lot for doing this video. I travelled on the tgv in 1989 and till date have not forgotten that experience. Kudos to France to lead the high speed charge worldwide.
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Thanks a lot for doing this video. I travelled on the tgv in 1989 and till date have not forgotten that experience. Kudos to France to lead the high speed charge worldwide.
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-scottyerkes1867
Very cool tribute to the TGV! Thank you for sharing with us!
And what a coincidence that the driver has the same name as your brother.
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Very cool tribute to the TGV! Thank you for sharing with us!
And what a coincidence that the driver has the same name as your brother.
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train
Can you just complete the whole Moscow to Vladivostok journey on Trans-Siberian Railway as a Long Distance Journey just as you cover long Distance Amtrak Routes
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Can you just complete the whole Moscow to Vladivostok journey on Trans-Siberian Railway as a Long Distance Journey just as you cover long Distance Amtrak Routes
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-grannycee8280
- your videos and look forward to them. Wish you would do more voice-over. More Amtrak too - as the new trains will be introduced. Safe travels.
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- your videos and look forward to them. Wish you would do more voice-over. More Amtrak too - as the new trains will be introduced. Safe travels.
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-SMALLHEADDAEDO
In korea has high speed train called KTX.
You can feel KTX likes TGV, when you see it and ride.
Becuase KTX Model is based on TGV.
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In korea has high speed train called KTX.
You can feel KTX likes TGV, when you see it and ride.
Becuase KTX Model is based on TGV.
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train
40 years later the TGV keep going on his rails, what a beautiful event.
Ps: la plaque de la cabine est mauvaise, c'est pas renov 2 mais 1
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40 years later the TGV keep going on his rails, what a beautiful event.
Ps: la plaque de la cabine est mauvaise, c'est pas renov 2 mais 1
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-shannenh. l265
I remember using TGV from Gare Du Lyon to Nice. Very nice experience and man i miss going to France to ride this train again.
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I remember using TGV from Gare Du Lyon to Nice. Very nice experience and man i miss going to France to ride this train again.
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-sabbathrbest2655
I-ve seen these in action whilst travelling through France on the Eurostar. TGVs are hands down the best trains in Europe
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I-ve seen these in action whilst travelling through France on the Eurostar. TGVs are hands down the best trains in Europe
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-raphdroidt692
A wide angle lens on your phone or camera would improve cabin and other interior shots a lot. Thank for the great video!
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A wide angle lens on your phone or camera would improve cabin and other interior shots a lot. Thank for the great video!
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-rockerjim8045
40 years old and we are still only starting to build our second main high speed line here in the UK. As for America!
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40 years old and we are still only starting to build our second main high speed line here in the UK. As for America!
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-terielrand8344
Awesome video. I rode one in 1990 in first class! Lausanne to Paris. I even splurged and had a meal and a drink!
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Awesome video. I rode one in 1990 in first class! Lausanne to Paris. I even splurged and had a meal and a drink!
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-ironmantrains
Have you done a review of the TGV Atlantique trains that have 10 coaches? A review on one of those will be great!
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Have you done a review of the TGV Atlantique trains that have 10 coaches? A review on one of those will be great!
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train
Can I know how the interior heights are on Euroduplex trains? About 190-200cm? Is it the same on both levels?
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Can I know how the interior heights are on Euroduplex trains? About 190-200cm? Is it the same on both levels?
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-downhillking2
How can we thank you enough for this really intriguing virtual tour of these fascinating machines.
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How can we thank you enough for this really intriguing virtual tour of these fascinating machines.
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-Bananaman-hk6qw
Bonjour Thibault. Could you if you have the time pls do a another Dutch tripreport? Thanks! :)
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Bonjour Thibault. Could you if you have the time pls do a another Dutch tripreport? Thanks! :)
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-williammerry4746
WOW! Very special. Most interesting. You do beat all Mr. Thibault. FIVE STARS for this one.
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WOW! Very special. Most interesting. You do beat all Mr. Thibault. FIVE STARS for this one.
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-a35504804
1: 11
Shouldnt TGV Sud East equip with metal spring instead of air suspension on bogies?
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1: 11
Shouldnt TGV Sud East equip with metal spring instead of air suspension on bogies?
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-bebmeister656
Do we know what will happen to this train? It seems sad to leave it here in this way.
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Do we know what will happen to this train? It seems sad to leave it here in this way.
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-wasted-blaster.
I love the 373 eurostars thank you france for actually designing something decent!
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I love the 373 eurostars thank you france for actually designing something decent!
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