Munich to Paris at 320km/h with TGV INOUI - First class review
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Date: 2024-01-09
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Comments and reviews: 35
-vzs01
While the breakdown of the travel time split between the German and the French railway system is correct in its essence, it's pretty disingenuous to use the beeline distance for the Munich to Strasbourg section while taking the actual distance on the rails for Strasbourg to Paris. Add to this that the TGV makes 4 stops in Germany whereas the only stop in France is Strasbourg. You also have to consider that the TGV isn't even using the fastest route in Germany as their rolling stock isn't equipped with ETCS which is required to access some of the highspeed sections on the route.
With all this taken into consideration, the actual travel time and distance on the german half is 3h30 for 410km on the rails. This is already going to improve very soon judging by the ongoing construction on this corridor: with the completion of Stuttgart 21, the Rastatt-Tunnel and the S21 northern highspeed connector; 15m, 6m and 9m will be shaved off of the travel time respectively, reducing the travel time to 3h. Furthermore, there will be another high speed section in construction in addition to minor operational improvements which will cut another 30m of travel time.
If you were to run a train nonstop from Munich to Strasbourg with these improvements it would take a little over just 2h, while retaining the option to serve city center stations whereas the LGV network is more and more seen and treated like an airline on rails, with stations far outside of population centers and huge parking lots to make up for it.
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While the breakdown of the travel time split between the German and the French railway system is correct in its essence, it's pretty disingenuous to use the beeline distance for the Munich to Strasbourg section while taking the actual distance on the rails for Strasbourg to Paris. Add to this that the TGV makes 4 stops in Germany whereas the only stop in France is Strasbourg. You also have to consider that the TGV isn't even using the fastest route in Germany as their rolling stock isn't equipped with ETCS which is required to access some of the highspeed sections on the route.
With all this taken into consideration, the actual travel time and distance on the german half is 3h30 for 410km on the rails. This is already going to improve very soon judging by the ongoing construction on this corridor: with the completion of Stuttgart 21, the Rastatt-Tunnel and the S21 northern highspeed connector; 15m, 6m and 9m will be shaved off of the travel time respectively, reducing the travel time to 3h. Furthermore, there will be another high speed section in construction in addition to minor operational improvements which will cut another 30m of travel time.
If you were to run a train nonstop from Munich to Strasbourg with these improvements it would take a little over just 2h, while retaining the option to serve city center stations whereas the LGV network is more and more seen and treated like an airline on rails, with stations far outside of population centers and huge parking lots to make up for it.
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-ennykraft
Trains in France replace planes, in Germany they replace cars. The French system is great if you want to travel from one large city to Paris and awful when you want to travel between other cities - and absolutely dismal if you want to travel to small towns. Let's suppose tomorrow we want to travel from Nantes to Bordeaux. They're in the top 10 of the largest cities in France. By car the distance is around 350 km. Trains run every every 60 to 120 mins depending on the time of the day. The ride will cost between 70 (very early trains only) to 170 euros and take between 4 and 5 hours. It takes so long because we first have to travel to Paris and change trains there which is a considerable detour.
Now if we want to travel from Munich to Erfurt (which is #37 among Germany's cities, the distance is 400 km, ICE trains run every 30 minutes, the ride will take 2. 5 hours and will cost around 90 euros. True, the train will probably be late but I definitely prefer the German concept.
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Trains in France replace planes, in Germany they replace cars. The French system is great if you want to travel from one large city to Paris and awful when you want to travel between other cities - and absolutely dismal if you want to travel to small towns. Let's suppose tomorrow we want to travel from Nantes to Bordeaux. They're in the top 10 of the largest cities in France. By car the distance is around 350 km. Trains run every every 60 to 120 mins depending on the time of the day. The ride will cost between 70 (very early trains only) to 170 euros and take between 4 and 5 hours. It takes so long because we first have to travel to Paris and change trains there which is a considerable detour.
Now if we want to travel from Munich to Erfurt (which is #37 among Germany's cities, the distance is 400 km, ICE trains run every 30 minutes, the ride will take 2. 5 hours and will cost around 90 euros. True, the train will probably be late but I definitely prefer the German concept.
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-erikziak1249
1. Dedicated infrastructure is a must.
2. When running on -shared- infrastructure in order to serve the stations in the city centers, no less than 160 km/h should be acceptable. No slowing down and especially no stopping in the suburbs. Maximum priority, maybe some -dedicated- tracks that could (in case of construction works) be used by other trains.
3. Anything less than 320 km/h is not acceptable in 2023, when we are talking about traveling long distance (anything above 50 km.
4. A regular timetable with frequent services, so you do not have to search for trains, just know they depart every hour.
You asked me to choose between Germany and France. That is a false dichotomy. The best high speed rail service is in Japan. Frequent service, high speeds, dedicated infrastructure. It is not about choosing between speed and frequency of service. Both can be achieved.
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1. Dedicated infrastructure is a must.
2. When running on -shared- infrastructure in order to serve the stations in the city centers, no less than 160 km/h should be acceptable. No slowing down and especially no stopping in the suburbs. Maximum priority, maybe some -dedicated- tracks that could (in case of construction works) be used by other trains.
3. Anything less than 320 km/h is not acceptable in 2023, when we are talking about traveling long distance (anything above 50 km.
4. A regular timetable with frequent services, so you do not have to search for trains, just know they depart every hour.
You asked me to choose between Germany and France. That is a false dichotomy. The best high speed rail service is in Japan. Frequent service, high speeds, dedicated infrastructure. It is not about choosing between speed and frequency of service. Both can be achieved.
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-hagmax1531
If you look at the way the population is distributed across the country then France and Germany are quite different.
France has not only a way lower population density, but additionally the population is very concentrated into several metropolitan areas with lots of empty land in between then.
In Germany on the other hand, the population is way more spread out accross the country, making it way more complicated to connect everything efficiently, especially with high speed lines
In France you just connect metropolitan area with metropolitan area with a high-speed line through the empty land in between.
In Germany there's big city next to big city. Especially in the northwestern Part. So the different systems kinda make sense. The geography of France is just way better suited for very fast high speed connections.
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If you look at the way the population is distributed across the country then France and Germany are quite different.
France has not only a way lower population density, but additionally the population is very concentrated into several metropolitan areas with lots of empty land in between then.
In Germany on the other hand, the population is way more spread out accross the country, making it way more complicated to connect everything efficiently, especially with high speed lines
In France you just connect metropolitan area with metropolitan area with a high-speed line through the empty land in between.
In Germany there's big city next to big city. Especially in the northwestern Part. So the different systems kinda make sense. The geography of France is just way better suited for very fast high speed connections.
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train
I can see your point about the German way of doing -hsr- but let's be honest: this was not done because of a certain philosophy, but to save money and trying to have your cake (HSR) and eat it too (not invest in dedicated HS lines. Many people can't use the flexibility of the German system as they could never afford the standard fares and cheaper options have to be booked weeks or months in advance and you are limited to one specific connection.
I regularly do Basel - Hamburg. That's a 7 1/2hr trip at best and almost 9h at worst. Inaceptable for the 21st century, and not nearly good enough to get people so switch from planes.
Modern rail needs to be available, affordable, flexible AND fast, or don't even bother: (
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I can see your point about the German way of doing -hsr- but let's be honest: this was not done because of a certain philosophy, but to save money and trying to have your cake (HSR) and eat it too (not invest in dedicated HS lines. Many people can't use the flexibility of the German system as they could never afford the standard fares and cheaper options have to be booked weeks or months in advance and you are limited to one specific connection.
I regularly do Basel - Hamburg. That's a 7 1/2hr trip at best and almost 9h at worst. Inaceptable for the 21st century, and not nearly good enough to get people so switch from planes.
Modern rail needs to be available, affordable, flexible AND fast, or don't even bother: (
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-andi_1425
A new high-speed track (250 km/h) has been opened as recently as December 2022 between Ulm an Stuttgart. It's part of the Stuttgart 21 project and saves 15 minutes travel time from Munich. However, not all the high-speed trains use it, and the TGVs seem to still run on the old tracks, as far as I can see. Which surprises me, because I've heard that SNCF doesn't like to run more trains to Munich, because Stuttgart - Munich is so slow: D
As soon as Stuttgart 21 is in full operation, it will save another 15 minutes. Let's hope that this will give us an improved connection from Munich to Paris as well!
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A new high-speed track (250 km/h) has been opened as recently as December 2022 between Ulm an Stuttgart. It's part of the Stuttgart 21 project and saves 15 minutes travel time from Munich. However, not all the high-speed trains use it, and the TGVs seem to still run on the old tracks, as far as I can see. Which surprises me, because I've heard that SNCF doesn't like to run more trains to Munich, because Stuttgart - Munich is so slow: D
As soon as Stuttgart 21 is in full operation, it will save another 15 minutes. Let's hope that this will give us an improved connection from Munich to Paris as well!
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-opporancisis5834
The connection is crazy good to take a connection to London, meaning you can make the connection Munich-London in under 10 hours (if you take into account the lengthy Eurostar boarding process) and taking into account that you leave Munich quite early, its perfect if you want ur arrival time to be not to late in the day so you can still enjoy a chill pub evening: )
I also gotta give this route (and the eurostar) credit for its insane steadiness during such high speed journeys. You feel like sitting in a normal room all the time.
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The connection is crazy good to take a connection to London, meaning you can make the connection Munich-London in under 10 hours (if you take into account the lengthy Eurostar boarding process) and taking into account that you leave Munich quite early, its perfect if you want ur arrival time to be not to late in the day so you can still enjoy a chill pub evening: )
I also gotta give this route (and the eurostar) credit for its insane steadiness during such high speed journeys. You feel like sitting in a normal room all the time.
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-w123blue7
I used to be a frequent traveller between Stuttgart and Paris back in 2017. There are 4 TGV services between those cities every day. Looking at your footage makes me want to travel to Paris in a TGV again. And with 3 hours 10 minutes, Paris is really just around the corner- By car it takes you at least 6 hours and you get crazy in the Paris traffic. And by plane, you need to add at least 2 hours at the airports and for getting into Paris. So, the TGV service is the best choice-and nothing beats 320 km/h on the ground -
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I used to be a frequent traveller between Stuttgart and Paris back in 2017. There are 4 TGV services between those cities every day. Looking at your footage makes me want to travel to Paris in a TGV again. And with 3 hours 10 minutes, Paris is really just around the corner- By car it takes you at least 6 hours and you get crazy in the Paris traffic. And by plane, you need to add at least 2 hours at the airports and for getting into Paris. So, the TGV service is the best choice-and nothing beats 320 km/h on the ground -
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-TilmannB0710
They hope, that will be speed up to drive, thru Stuttgart with Stuttgart 21, with only 8 tracks - with only two switches to come in to Stuttgart 21. We will see, in the future, that really speed up that. But not a station speed up a train, only the route self speed up a train. That are only maximal 5 minutes more in a station to change the side. Normal a other engine driver stay on other side and take the train. Much time need to change persons in the stations, and construction work on the route - how S21 now.
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They hope, that will be speed up to drive, thru Stuttgart with Stuttgart 21, with only 8 tracks - with only two switches to come in to Stuttgart 21. We will see, in the future, that really speed up that. But not a station speed up a train, only the route self speed up a train. That are only maximal 5 minutes more in a station to change the side. Normal a other engine driver stay on other side and take the train. Much time need to change persons in the stations, and construction work on the route - how S21 now.
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-jfmezei
Im -TGV le grand check up- video from France Reportage & Aviation they show how they are now fitting new reversible seats for first class TGV sections so passengers can traven forrward. It is unfortunate that Canada has abandonned reversible seats at a time France is going baclk to them. We now have to ttavel backwards in Canada. .
Not surprised you didn't catch up time. And you were lucky to be able to maintain 320 and not be slowed down by traffic ahead of you.
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Im -TGV le grand check up- video from France Reportage & Aviation they show how they are now fitting new reversible seats for first class TGV sections so passengers can traven forrward. It is unfortunate that Canada has abandonned reversible seats at a time France is going baclk to them. We now have to ttavel backwards in Canada. .
Not surprised you didn't catch up time. And you were lucky to be able to maintain 320 and not be slowed down by traffic ahead of you.
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-melaniedrogr951
One thing to note about the german high speed system is that it is very much still an incomplete system, as germany's population is spread between far more cities than france's population is, meaning you cant make a functional network with 4 lines. And germany is still building multiple high speed lines this decade, and planning to reach 6000 km of high speed lines (france is a bit below 3000 km of high speed lines now)
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One thing to note about the german high speed system is that it is very much still an incomplete system, as germany's population is spread between far more cities than france's population is, meaning you cant make a functional network with 4 lines. And germany is still building multiple high speed lines this decade, and planning to reach 6000 km of high speed lines (france is a bit below 3000 km of high speed lines now)
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-quoniam426
Comfortable run is due to the fact that the line is designed for a max speed of 350 kph in the future (if energy costs could be lowered.
The German style of service is nice but could be complementary to the French style. With enough bypasses and junctions, both could be possible. The German service at least avoids building stations in the middle of nowhere to connect for real with local services.
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Comfortable run is due to the fact that the line is designed for a max speed of 350 kph in the future (if energy costs could be lowered.
The German style of service is nice but could be complementary to the French style. With enough bypasses and junctions, both could be possible. The German service at least avoids building stations in the middle of nowhere to connect for real with local services.
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train
I would like to see also an upgrade of existing tracks to allow for faster and more reliable connections and higher frequencies as well. Like services that run at max speeds of 160 to 200km/h on existing connections. The tracks should be modified in that level crossings must be removed. If you could have an average speed of 140km/h at a high frequency without the need for reservations, that would be great.
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I would like to see also an upgrade of existing tracks to allow for faster and more reliable connections and higher frequencies as well. Like services that run at max speeds of 160 to 200km/h on existing connections. The tracks should be modified in that level crossings must be removed. If you could have an average speed of 140km/h at a high frequency without the need for reservations, that would be great.
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-thierryf67
Train coming from Germany were often in late at the arrival at Strasbourg. And regaining the time by higher speed costs much. So german delays aren't always regain. TGV run usually on their proper lines, that's the feature you don't like instead of the german lines. Its a political choice. but you can have also in France many regional trains to go in smaller cities.
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Train coming from Germany were often in late at the arrival at Strasbourg. And regaining the time by higher speed costs much. So german delays aren't always regain. TGV run usually on their proper lines, that's the feature you don't like instead of the german lines. Its a political choice. but you can have also in France many regional trains to go in smaller cities.
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-BJHolloway1
It is interesting your train took the Ulm - Stuttagrt route over the alp via Geislingen. It seems like all the TGV trains on the German routes they are not equipped with the ETCS signalling system making them ineligible to use the latest high speed stretch of track in Germany. That being the stretch from Ulm via Wendlingen to Stuttgart - surprising really.
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It is interesting your train took the Ulm - Stuttagrt route over the alp via Geislingen. It seems like all the TGV trains on the German routes they are not equipped with the ETCS signalling system making them ineligible to use the latest high speed stretch of track in Germany. That being the stretch from Ulm via Wendlingen to Stuttgart - surprising really.
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train
A few days ago I travelled from Bordeaux to Saint-Jean-de-Luz (in the Basque country) with a TGV Inoui, and since it came from Paris-Montparnasse using the newest LGV, the train was from 2019, and in first class, although the seat was not as great as the older interior, the seat pitch and the equipment (table, light, recline) were incredible!
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A few days ago I travelled from Bordeaux to Saint-Jean-de-Luz (in the Basque country) with a TGV Inoui, and since it came from Paris-Montparnasse using the newest LGV, the train was from 2019, and in first class, although the seat was not as great as the older interior, the seat pitch and the equipment (table, light, recline) were incredible!
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-hilldoggydogg635
That's part of the Paris-Bratislava High Speed Line. It's currently in construction, with over half the stages complete. They need a higher speed link from Vienna to Bratislava and fill in some of the gaps between Vienna to Paris. It's going to be awesome when it's done, as I'm from Bratislava and visit it. Can fly to Paris now!
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That's part of the Paris-Bratislava High Speed Line. It's currently in construction, with over half the stages complete. They need a higher speed link from Vienna to Bratislava and fill in some of the gaps between Vienna to Paris. It's going to be awesome when it's done, as I'm from Bratislava and visit it. Can fly to Paris now!
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-mauriceweidert676
I don't think the french and german Railway systems should exclude each other. If France operated much more connections on its non-high-speed-railways, it would have the advantages of both worlds! (Germany is not quickly able to do such thing as there is no cohesive high-speed network throughout the country)
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I don't think the french and german Railway systems should exclude each other. If France operated much more connections on its non-high-speed-railways, it would have the advantages of both worlds! (Germany is not quickly able to do such thing as there is no cohesive high-speed network throughout the country)
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-KoploperMau
France has a great high speed railway system, but the regular system is terrible. Unregular schedules, not many trains in the weekends. Even if they'd run trains on a set hourly train on most lines they would get so many more passengers and the network would be so much more attractive. Nice review.
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France has a great high speed railway system, but the regular system is terrible. Unregular schedules, not many trains in the weekends. Even if they'd run trains on a set hourly train on most lines they would get so many more passengers and the network would be so much more attractive. Nice review.
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-shanegermany5803
Why on earth couldn-t thier be one return trip in both directions at the very least, yet more under utilised HSR. Same could be said for Paris-Barcelona, big fanfare when it was launched but, only two trains in each direction and no sleeper service. No good use of rail lines.
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Why on earth couldn-t thier be one return trip in both directions at the very least, yet more under utilised HSR. Same could be said for Paris-Barcelona, big fanfare when it was launched but, only two trains in each direction and no sleeper service. No good use of rail lines.
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-sinform9714
In theory the TGV could use the new high-speed link between Ulm and Wendlingen (near Stuttgart. But I heard the TGVs are not able to use the link due to technical reason. A Highspeed link between Ulm and Augsburg is in planning to fill the gap between Stuttgart and Munich.
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In theory the TGV could use the new high-speed link between Ulm and Wendlingen (near Stuttgart. But I heard the TGVs are not able to use the link due to technical reason. A Highspeed link between Ulm and Augsburg is in planning to fill the gap between Stuttgart and Munich.
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-thierryf67
I used to travel from Paris to Strasbourg for 7 years on ICE and TGV. I prefered TGV, because their seat are more comfortable. The ICE seat were as hard as low-class planes seat. For a long trip, it's a thing for my back, and being rested, ready for work at the arrival.
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I used to travel from Paris to Strasbourg for 7 years on ICE and TGV. I prefered TGV, because their seat are more comfortable. The ICE seat were as hard as low-class planes seat. For a long trip, it's a thing for my back, and being rested, ready for work at the arrival.
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-papaschlumpf332
It is not correct, that the French high speed network is bigger then the German one, it its the other way round.
The slow part you show around 5: 45 is the so called -Geislinger Steige-, to avoid these slow lines, there opened a highspeedline last December!
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It is not correct, that the French high speed network is bigger then the German one, it its the other way round.
The slow part you show around 5: 45 is the so called -Geislinger Steige-, to avoid these slow lines, there opened a highspeedline last December!
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-mikaj6709
First class? Never. If you want to learn the languages and feel the atmosphere. Instead of boring business people watching their lap-tops. And of course - we normal people, we just don't have money for this kind of first class, even if we would like to try once.
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First class? Never. If you want to learn the languages and feel the atmosphere. Instead of boring business people watching their lap-tops. And of course - we normal people, we just don't have money for this kind of first class, even if we would like to try once.
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-reestyfarts
I think the Japanese system is better than either. More trains, cleaner, just as fast on the Shinkansen. Better food also.
You just have to read and speak the language, or have someone who does who can ask for directions because it is so complicated.
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I think the Japanese system is better than either. More trains, cleaner, just as fast on the Shinkansen. Better food also.
You just have to read and speak the language, or have someone who does who can ask for directions because it is so complicated.
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-percismehta8959
Such top grade facilities r not available here because most of the masses r un-educated n their ignorance wd cost the Ex-checker millions of dollars in Repair n Maintenance. I am just putting FAX on the table, not trying to put anyone down.
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Such top grade facilities r not available here because most of the masses r un-educated n their ignorance wd cost the Ex-checker millions of dollars in Repair n Maintenance. I am just putting FAX on the table, not trying to put anyone down.
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train
I will always prefer systems like Germany, Austria or Switzerland, with less (or none proper) high speed trains but with an extensive network, than France or Italy with a massive high speed network but decadent traditional service
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I will always prefer systems like Germany, Austria or Switzerland, with less (or none proper) high speed trains but with an extensive network, than France or Italy with a massive high speed network but decadent traditional service
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-Ellinillard
German trains are massively running late generating missed connections. I understand this is due to huge track renovations etc. But until this is fixed, German train system is absolutely unreliable. Plus the food stinks.
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German trains are massively running late generating missed connections. I understand this is due to huge track renovations etc. But until this is fixed, German train system is absolutely unreliable. Plus the food stinks.
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-pirazel7858
Currently the TGV is not certified to use the new high speed track between Ulm and Wendlingen. Once Stuttgart 21 is finished, 30 min will be cut on this route, making a Munich - Paris connection much more viable
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Currently the TGV is not certified to use the new high speed track between Ulm and Wendlingen. Once Stuttgart 21 is finished, 30 min will be cut on this route, making a Munich - Paris connection much more viable
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-bartosz9476
These trains is real disaster, I often take TGV from Mannheim to Frankfurt, not because it's TGV but because schedule is good for me - those train stinks, are always loaded of people, dirty and need renovation
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These trains is real disaster, I often take TGV from Mannheim to Frankfurt, not because it's TGV but because schedule is good for me - those train stinks, are always loaded of people, dirty and need renovation
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train
Holy moly it is too fast i dont think i can ride on this train i prefer the slowest train as possible maybe Leisure train rhen i can wstch the beauty of countryside. or id rather use toktok
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Holy moly it is too fast i dont think i can ride on this train i prefer the slowest train as possible maybe Leisure train rhen i can wstch the beauty of countryside. or id rather use toktok
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-sarangjokhio3408
I have travelled to Paris in TGV from Ulm in the first class: ) By far my best experiance ever (Apart from EuroStar. On time, fast and comfortable. What else do you need? :)
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I have travelled to Paris in TGV from Ulm in the first class: ) By far my best experiance ever (Apart from EuroStar. On time, fast and comfortable. What else do you need? :)
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-jacqueline23788
first sncf was thef fiist network bullet trin in europe secondly france is bigger than germany third you got a -normal network - for rgeional network its called TER
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first sncf was thef fiist network bullet trin in europe secondly france is bigger than germany third you got a -normal network - for rgeional network its called TER
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-pham3383
i feel that the german train accelarate way too fast, i never feel sick when going on shinkansen, but fell like the plane taking off when the ICE leave the station
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i feel that the german train accelarate way too fast, i never feel sick when going on shinkansen, but fell like the plane taking off when the ICE leave the station
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-Felix-nz7lq
You could have the Norwegian system where the high speed is exclusively for short commuter lines and the intercity routes are single tracked with 70km/h running
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You could have the Norwegian system where the high speed is exclusively for short commuter lines and the intercity routes are single tracked with 70km/h running
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