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The Subtropical Question - More on Oceanic and Humid Subtropical Climates

The Subtropical Question - More on Oceanic and Humid Subtropical Climates

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New York is Subtropical. Really? According to the Koppen Climate Classification, it has the same Humid Subtropical Climate as New Orleans in the Deep South. Sounds crazy, doesn't it? And what about Bogota, Colombia having the same climate as London. That can't be right, surely. But Koppen put them both in the same Oceanic Climate Zone. In this video I break apart these zones into different sub-types based upon winter temperatures. When Vladimir Koppen developed his famous climate classification, 90% of the Earth was covered well. But problems lie in the Humid Subtropical (Cfa) Climate, where many feel that it is too broad a definition, with cities like New York and New Orleans being in the same climate zone. I have identified with precision the problem with this climate zone - it is the difference in winter temperatures. New York has cool winters while New Orleans is mild during the colder season. In an original piece of research, I have split the Cfa zone globally into areas of cool and mild winters, and present these in a detailed map. A similar problem occurs in the Oceanic (Cfb) climate zone, where London and Paris, with their chilly winters, are classified in the same zone as Melbourne and Auckland with their mild winters, and even worse, with Subtropical Highland cities like Bogota and Quito, which experience no winter. Again, here, I break down the Oceanic climate zone into cool and mild winters, and additionally clarifying the difference between these and the Subtropical Highland climate
Date: 2024-01-04

Comments and reviews: 34


my ancestor are from China GuangDong and Fuzhou (4 season climate)
5th generation me living in South East Asia Malaysia (Tropical climate)
still having traditional culture teaching kept about (4 season climate) - Although we don't used it, but still recalled the fun and hardship living in 4 season, also for usefulness tool if we land again to the land of 4 season climate again.
every 3 months is different season, is fun with festival
every 3 months with different clothing fun, but used a lot of money and big closet is needed
very worst month to survived is winter, cold and hunger, whoever made it and survived that month is the blessed, some unable to make it will not met Chinese New Year, no new year for the family.
during the spring and summer the sun will stay longer with us, yet the autum and winter months getting darker and depressed.
Calender is the key of life, make sure no wrong count because we had to catched up the season change, math is vital.
Anyway Anyhow, even living in Tropical region, we still enjoyed the fun loving 4 season climate in the movie and show we seen, is so enjoyable to watch people is having fun with every 3 months turned into new life, yet living in Tropical, sometimes is kinda boredom because the same thing you see again and again (rain or shine) (haze or flood. is just very stoic personality will come to you.

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Loved the video, it-s always annoyed me that mild winter isn-t taken into account. I live/grew up in Melbourne and have also lived in London. Those climates are vastly different from each other, principally with respect to sunshine, rainfall patterns, wind and temperature. London, for example has long drizzly, misty days during a polar depression which Melbourne simply doesn-t experience (due to latitude. London (and the UK in general) isn-t windy the way southern Australia is. It-s spring here at the moment and mild/cool oceanic winds are smashing us daily, causing all the palms in my garden to sway. Again, not a UK thing (especially the palms. Melbourne is far sunnier than London (despite its local reputation) and at 2300 hrs of annual bright sunshine, it-s on par with Naples, the home of pizza! Finally, our overall annual temps are on par with Madrid & Rome, not at all like London or Paris. Our summers are also bone dry, putting us on par with Greece and Spain. I don-t actually think Melbourne should be classified as oceanic. It-s misleading. I would categorise Melbourne as warm summer med. Indeed, some places in Victoria have that classification (Torquay for example. It just seems odd to me that Melbourne is oceanic when we enjoy perhaps the most comfortable, liveable climate in the world.
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Best information on climate available. Here is my question: do Oceanic climates have dry or humid air? I ask because I-ve lived in Florida most of my life and recently traveled to Seattle for the summer. Personally, I hate the dry heat Becsuse it drains me of water, where the humid heat in Florida is easy to combat by simply getting wet. Oddly though, I popped absolute humidity values in a spreadsheet for both places and an 80f December day in a Florida January should have about the same amount of moisture in the atmosphere as an 80f day in a Seattle July (with both being about 13 g/m-3) due to similar dew points during those months. But, I can tell you first hand that I sweat much more on such a day inSeattle than I ever did in Florida, leading me to wonder why.
Now, I know that you made a distinction between Csb and Cfb climates in your other video, but I-m wondering if the Oceanic climates air is dry like a Csb Seattle or humid like say New York. I never want to be in a dry heat simmer region ever again in my life, so just seeing if UK is a place o should avoid in the summer. I love cold and wet and I grew up in the tropics, so I can endure that too, but this -Mediterranean- summer is just not for me lol. Thanks!

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Thank you for the videos and and answering this. Just some nice climate questions
1. What do you think of the Savannah having their trees shed its leaves during the dry seasons so different from the tropical I was used too
2. The subpolar occeanic climate akin to a perpetual autumn seems like a good video. What are they-re natural vegetation, trees that grow there? agricultural significance. Are autumn there beautiful? Or the purple color for the continental like those in Turkey seems like a good video goi further into the classifications
3. I didn-t feel like you really went into the semi arid climates both hot and cold. Cactuses like those in Arizona and northern Mexico and steppe climate, what can really grow there any natural trees that are unique to them the way cactuses are for the hot dessert both arid and semi
4. I also felt like you brush over the mediterranean climate a bit much, like the power punch they have with biodiversity and the natural vegetation they have.
THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING.

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Not bad, I live in Auckland and have been keeping weather data for years. Our winter averages are between 12 degrees for June and August and 11 for July. We have had no days ever below freezing, the coldest was 0. 9 degrees (All celsius - no American grading here) in 2017 and only 1 day where it failed to reach 10 degrees - This July was cold with an average temp of 11. 2c the average high was 15. 3 and low 7. 1c.
Our summers are only just below 22c, usual Februarys have an official average of 19. 9c but with global warming they are 20. 5 - 21. 5c. One February had average high of 26. 3c and low of 17. 9c giving us 22. 2c. This year was a cold February with an average high of only 23. 6c and low of 16. 2 giving us 19. 9, but it was the coldest since the 80s. Trewartha rightly gives a C ranking and I have real issue with Koppen giving us CBF and putting us on par with iceland, Loftoten, Alaska and Northern Scotland, places with averages of like 4c and 12c highs in summer, whereas our average temp is nearly 16c.

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I grew up just a bit north of the border between humid continental and humid subtropical, and then went to college a few hundred kilometers south in the humid subtropical zone. There really wasn-t much of a difference, climate and vegetation wise, other than slightly hotter summers and a bit less snow in the winter. It makes sense that the distinction must be made somewhere, even though my hometown is a lot more similar to where I went to college than Florida. But if we kept on making these distinctions then the climate map would get so much more complicated. The eastern US has such a gradual shift between climates to where you really need to have a trained eye to determine if, for example, a picture of a forest was taken in the Midwest or the south. If you play Geoguessr then you-d know just how annoying it is to get a round in the eastern US.
I now live in the Pacific Northwest, where I can drive from a rainforest to a desert in an hour and the differences between climates are a lot more obvious!

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This piece perfectly captured the weakness of Cfa classification. The division into Cfa-mild winter and Cfa-cool winter is brilliant. Probably applied very well until the very recent past.
Although I have to say that based on the last 36 months, NYC today is indeed more like New Orleans than the northeast of the mid 20th century. We have had one real winter storm in 3 years, multiple heat waves each year, and summer now bascially is May - early Oct. There were many more 60F days this past winter than 30F days, every single day (yes, not a typo) in Jan, temp was above the 1990-2020 mean, there was less than one inch of snow for most of NYC for the entire season. And as of today, April 13 / 2023, it literally hit 90 degrees on my thermoeter on the balcony this afternoon.
I have been in the metro most of my life, and I have never seen anything close to this. I think for everyone in NYC, even those that were climate change doubters, are becoming believers now.

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I feel like the -cool winter subtropical- may as well be grouped in with the continental climates as a -hot summer/cool winter continental- climate, or something. I-m currently in Maryland but spent some time in Texas, and the lack of cold weather/snow in the winter really makes for an overall different perception of the year round climate. It absolutely feels more like say, Boston here than Houston. There needs to be some line that delineates -subtropical- climates with cold winters and semi-regular snow, from true subtropical climates with mild winters and rare to non existent snow. A solution to this, as you pointed out, would be basing it off the 10C isotherm, although I would personally make it just a degree or two colder, pushing the line to maybe Macon, GA/Montgomery, AL or so. Nice vid as always!
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Honestly quality video! Amazing, as always.
So well, here is other complaints about the Koppen Climate Classification XD
(I think its a great system but obviously every system has flaws. The opposite of the generalising effect is the -too many- effect of the subarctic climates, in my opinion. Seriously, 6 subarctic types? 3 for Very Cold winter where precipitation doesnt matter (I think, as not many people live there. Plus the 3 subpolar oceanic climates are well, yeah I think you can predict my opinion lol.
Also, dont bother with the hate comments, we all like your videos: (
Just joking of course: )
Ok now ill finish this essay

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Excellent video! I live in Brisbane which is cfa climate, and I've always been a bit confused at how New York is in the same climate zone. Even my brother pointed it out while watching your videos. Definitely think 10 degrees is a great isotherm to Seperate the zone with mild winters and cool winters!
I think it's really cool how certain places can be on the border of multiple climate zones. For example Florina, Greece has an average January temp of 0. 5 degrees, average July Temp of 21. 9, with year round precipitation. So it's on the border of continental/oceanic/humid subtropical depending on the source

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I'm a New Yorker and it definitely feels like a humid continental climate in the winter and a subtropical climate in the summer which I guess makes sense because we're right on the border of the two classifications. New York is definitely an edge case of the Cfa zone. Yes, we never have a month where day/night average temperatures are below freezing but we're very nearly there in January and February. We definitely don't have the same type of climate as the southeast but we certainly don't have the same climate as places further inland in the US at similar latitudes.
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The Indian version is very unique in it self Very extreme temperatures in Winter and Summer, As summarised Late June- Late September Rainy Monsoon, Early October to Late November as post-monsoon or you could 'say autumn' as the temperature cools towards end of November, Early December- Late February Winter, Late February- Early April as Pre Monsoon or 'Spring' Early April to Late June Hot Summer (with notable exception is that April and May have Dry Heat, While June has Humid Heat similar to of other Humid Subtropical Cfa climate) and the cycle then repeats itself
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Another interesting anomaly are the pockets of Cfb climate in the Appalachian mountains, which are in a zone that would normally be Cfa. Some towns such as the aptly named Highlands, NC have cooler summer temperatures due to altitude, like the subtropical highlands. But they have a clearly defined winter season, like the normal oceanic climate. So which is it? Wikipedia calls it subtropical highland in its description of Highlands but oceanic on the map. This could possibly go either way. One town, Boone NC, even has the Dfb climate type.
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People are obsessed with labels. Just witness the freakout over -is Pluto a planet-? You did a good job of explaining this to the layman who is on a hair trigger and ready to scream about anything. Every scientific classification system is just an attempt to split up the continuous nature of reality in a way that makes sense in a particular system. They are just labels, useful in some cases, not useful in others. Language and categorization are simply crude tools. Love your videos.
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Great video!
Also you should investigate the line between Mediterranean and humid subtropical/oceanic climates in Europe.
Especially in Eastern Europe and in the balkans until northern Greece the climate is more continental in winter and while mostly dry in the summer cannot be classified as solely Mediterranean because some very severe thunderstorm occur often.
A primary example is Thessaloniki in Greece or Istanbul.

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Do you live in the Humid Subtropical or Oceanic zone, but have experienced the -other kind- of that zone (mild winters or cool winters? If so, share your experiences here. For instance, I for one spent time as a kid growing up in Melbourne, which has mild winters, and now in the UK with cool winters, and I can definitely confirm it was a different feeling in winter. I don't think it's ever snowed in Melbourne!
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Lifelong Humid Subtropical resident weighing in (USA. I'd like to pitch two possible division lines:
(a) 3 months below 50F(10C. That would put the line at roughly Little Rock and Memphis.
(b) Average monthly snowfall in at least one month being 25. 4 mm (1. 0 inches. That puts the division at Pine Bluff, AR and Cleveland, MS (40 miles S. of Little Rock and 125 miles S. of Memphis, respectively.

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I would like to know what is significant about 1. 6 inches (40mm) as ONE OF THE deciding factors in whether you have a c-F-b or a c-S-b, for example.
I know what the rule is, I wanna know how this rule was determined. Does vegetation turn brown without at least 1. 6 inches a month?
It-s obviously not arbitrary. Koppen surely had a reason for this rule. I just can-t figure it out.

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Oh wow! This is actually something that's bothered me about the Koppen system. I live in the south-eastern US, and this immediately stood out to me as a problem with it. I have talked about this extensively with my one friend that's enough of a geography nerd to care about this.
We thought about dividing the cfa by whether a location averages more than 1 cm of snow a year.

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Palms can and do thrive in Arkansas, North Carolina, Oklahoma and Tennessee, too, even though they're in the -cool- humid subtropical zone. They're just smaller and lesser known than the big ones in the Deep South (even while being native to here too, they're mostly hidden away in the swamps and jungles, not on roadsides where you can see them easily.
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Geographical subtropics may include areas that are climatically more warm to mild temperate like Sydney, Perth, Los Angeles or New Orleans etc. , but the TRUE subtropics are those regions bordering on a humid tropical climate with warm to mild winters like central coastal Florida, Easter Island, Durban in South Africa and Brisbane in Australia.
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Good way to delineate and refine Koppen's Humid Subtropical into cool vs. mild winter belts. Excellent video!
For your 10C/50F line for the winter daily mean, do you mean the season (like Dec, Jan, Feb) or the coldest month? And is your coldest part of Humid Subtropical (cool winters) 0C/32F, or some other temperature or time period? Thanks!

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Great Video. But I have a question, why does Koppen classify Grand Bahama (An Island in the Caribbean) as Aw, even though it is 26 degrees north and vegetation more analagous to central florida (climate type Cfa) than the Brazilian Amazon? And it does get seriously cold for an Aw climate, even passing below freezing at least a night per year.
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The Koppen climates Cfa/Cwa (The classic Humid Subtropical and its monsoon variation) are the most populated climate zone of earth, but also the most densely populated climate, and why not. the most controversial climate of Koppen due to its wide range of temperatures to be included on it. Definitively. the Koppen celebrity climate.
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Ugh, I wish it were t-shirt weather in winter here (cool winter cfb. We've been having a very pleasant september (daytime highs around 20 degrees celcius, barely any rain/grey clouds) and I suddenly understand why some americans are so obsessed with fall/autumn, haha.
Anyway, great video and I think your solution is elegant.

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Perhaps it would make sense to have a 2d graph of all the climate types next to their adjacent types with a dot on the map for each city which could be right in the middle or closer to the edge of a zone with one or more others if it is borderline to show just how much of each climate zones influence it has.
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For some odd reason, Koppen decided to put a sharp distinction between the C and D classes when there is actually a more smoother transition between them when it comes to winter temperatures. That's why you have cities like New York and Copenhagen basically skirting the line between C and D.
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Even Budapest is, according to some, -has continental climate, bordering humid subtropical- bro when you can't exist for 4 months every year, without your hands freezing numb spending 1 minute outside, you would NEVER think of ANYTHING that remotely has to deal with -tropical-, sub or not
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In my opinion, there should be another line north of Washington DC that divides cool winters and cold winters. Here in NJ, across the river from New York, we experience cold winters as average. But there are some days that are cool (and even mild, but are exceptions. For me, very cold is
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The problem with the C climate type is the wide range the average coldest month temperature, which is between 0 and 18 degrees Celsius. Climates with average winter temperatures below 10 degrees should no longer be called subtropical even if they feature hot summers.
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As a guy that lives in Hong Kong, our winter is way milder than Shanghai, at Shanghai winter sometimes reaches 0 Celsius, but in Hong Kong, our winter rarely goes under 10 Celsius and literally near impossible to have temperature below 0 Celsius in the city zone
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I feel like the other inconsistency in the Humid subtropical is with respect to India/Myanmar, with summers in Northern India in this zone easily reaching maximums of almost 50, with hot desert like winds blowing. While the winter is still cool(
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I always noticed there were two types of humid subtropical climates generally (1. True hs climate with a winter low of around 10 degrees. 2 cold hs with a more temprate feel ) eg sydney vs Brisbane or punjab vs north east india
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9: 00 is that Corvo Island in the Azores? An unique place, dominated by a rather pleasant Cfb/Cfa -
I did experience Cfa mild and cool winter versions and Cfb cool winter version; )
Amazing Video as always!

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