Plato’s infamous Ship of State thought experiment - Michael Vazquez
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Date: 2026-09-04
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Comments and reviews: 20
luisfilipe2023
I think the problem with these kinds of arguments is that they treat politics as a craft as something that a few can master to produce the objectively better political outcomes like sailors doctors artisans painters accountants fishermen etc. But at its core politics is about preferences. There is no right or wrong political position. If a populace truly believes that lowering taxes at the expense of social spending is good policy then there is no objective way to argue with them. The same applies to concepts of criminal justice foreign alliances economic regulations trade deals wars the environment human rights cultural heritage moral enforcement etc. These are all questions where we must weigh pros and cons costs and benefits and we can’t simply rely on experience science or skill to answer because how much cost someone is willing to take for an outcome and what kind of outcomes someone wants to begin with is something entirely personal subjective and emotional. It’s completely reasonable that the professional chef prepares my dish for me it is not reasonable for him to decide what dish I’m going to have. The person having the dish and paying for it is the only one with a legitimate right to pick it. Craftsmanship expertise and experience can tell you how to accomplish a goal and indeed those in charge of accomplishing political goals ought to be chosen by merit not election. But what goals to accomplish and what costs to incur That’s for the hirer of the craftsman to decide!
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I think the problem with these kinds of arguments is that they treat politics as a craft as something that a few can master to produce the objectively better political outcomes like sailors doctors artisans painters accountants fishermen etc. But at its core politics is about preferences. There is no right or wrong political position. If a populace truly believes that lowering taxes at the expense of social spending is good policy then there is no objective way to argue with them. The same applies to concepts of criminal justice foreign alliances economic regulations trade deals wars the environment human rights cultural heritage moral enforcement etc. These are all questions where we must weigh pros and cons costs and benefits and we can’t simply rely on experience science or skill to answer because how much cost someone is willing to take for an outcome and what kind of outcomes someone wants to begin with is something entirely personal subjective and emotional. It’s completely reasonable that the professional chef prepares my dish for me it is not reasonable for him to decide what dish I’m going to have. The person having the dish and paying for it is the only one with a legitimate right to pick it. Craftsmanship expertise and experience can tell you how to accomplish a goal and indeed those in charge of accomplishing political goals ought to be chosen by merit not election. But what goals to accomplish and what costs to incur That’s for the hirer of the craftsman to decide!
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scottkidder9046
I think there’s a difference between people doing what they want and people doing what they want let me explain.
1) People do what they feel like doing meaning that they’re trying to avoid emotional states they find distasteful and uncomfortable. But there’s a part of them that knows it isn’t. There’s misalignment and a war between themselves. However, it really does feel like this is what they want.
2) People find inspiration, a calling, something internal and do that even if it leads to discomfort emotionally.
Everyone has both of these things and 1 is certainly easier than 2. But 2 cant exist without Freedom which means it cant exist without 1.
Instead of preaching morals about what we owe each other, i think it’s more effective to help people align themselves internally because deep down, underneath all the trauma, the anger, the shame, the fear, whatever it is, people instinctively want to help one another. You don’t have to teach them to do it. Whenever an average person is being selfish it’s because they’re misaligned. It’s not because they don’t know about social norms or morality.
Obviously, whatever system we choose has to take humans as they are, not as we’d like them to be. So I tend to default to a system is good if it is working but I think there’s a good reason to keep freedom around and focus on helping individuals become who they really want to be. The natural side effect of that is social responsibility.
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I think there’s a difference between people doing what they want and people doing what they want let me explain.
1) People do what they feel like doing meaning that they’re trying to avoid emotional states they find distasteful and uncomfortable. But there’s a part of them that knows it isn’t. There’s misalignment and a war between themselves. However, it really does feel like this is what they want.
2) People find inspiration, a calling, something internal and do that even if it leads to discomfort emotionally.
Everyone has both of these things and 1 is certainly easier than 2. But 2 cant exist without Freedom which means it cant exist without 1.
Instead of preaching morals about what we owe each other, i think it’s more effective to help people align themselves internally because deep down, underneath all the trauma, the anger, the shame, the fear, whatever it is, people instinctively want to help one another. You don’t have to teach them to do it. Whenever an average person is being selfish it’s because they’re misaligned. It’s not because they don’t know about social norms or morality.
Obviously, whatever system we choose has to take humans as they are, not as we’d like them to be. So I tend to default to a system is good if it is working but I think there’s a good reason to keep freedom around and focus on helping individuals become who they really want to be. The natural side effect of that is social responsibility.
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md. zimamahmed9584
Prelude of the law can be twisted too. In India in 2026 131st Amendment was proposed. They linked that to an older bill (128th amendment. The ruling party proposed the 131st Amendment which was about delimitation (redrawing of the constituencies based on population after census) and tied it with 128th amendment (which talked about 33% womens' reservation in Lok Sabha (House of Commons equivalent. Some states (mostly the states ruled by opposition) feared that redrawing of constituencies would dilute their voters and they would lose power which would go in the favour of the ruling party, however the ruling party put a single clause in the 131st Amendment about the implementation of 128th Amendment after the implementation of 131st and Census, clearly in their favour. The public supporting the ruling party went into outrage against the opposition, saying that the opposition don't want womens' reservation and we won't allow that although it was never about womens' reservation. The womens' reservation bill was already passed in 2023
You can find counter-measures to corruption but corrupt people find a way. Here an unofficial prelude was given to the people with the set narrative that the opposition is against womens' reservation and people went in blind outrage
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Prelude of the law can be twisted too. In India in 2026 131st Amendment was proposed. They linked that to an older bill (128th amendment. The ruling party proposed the 131st Amendment which was about delimitation (redrawing of the constituencies based on population after census) and tied it with 128th amendment (which talked about 33% womens' reservation in Lok Sabha (House of Commons equivalent. Some states (mostly the states ruled by opposition) feared that redrawing of constituencies would dilute their voters and they would lose power which would go in the favour of the ruling party, however the ruling party put a single clause in the 131st Amendment about the implementation of 128th Amendment after the implementation of 131st and Census, clearly in their favour. The public supporting the ruling party went into outrage against the opposition, saying that the opposition don't want womens' reservation and we won't allow that although it was never about womens' reservation. The womens' reservation bill was already passed in 2023
You can find counter-measures to corruption but corrupt people find a way. Here an unofficial prelude was given to the people with the set narrative that the opposition is against womens' reservation and people went in blind outrage
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ted_ed
Reflection is key. Sadly, mankind as a whole--as in on a global scale--is ludicrously terrible at it. And why Simple. If you do not study, train in/for, and respect a skill (such as Reflection, then there's no gaedaemn way in bloody hey-ell that you'd possess any proficiency in it let alone hold expertise nor mastery. That'd be like a boxer who'd never once studied nor trained jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, nor any FOOTWORK. Are you joking! You cannot comprehend what you have not studied. No exceptions.
Before I start, I must see my end. Destination known, my mind’s journey now begins. Upon my chariot, heart and soul’s fate revealed. In time, all points converge, hope’s strength resteeled. But to earn final peace at the universe’s endless refrain, we must see all in nothingness. before we start again.
--Diamond Dragons (series)
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Reflection is key. Sadly, mankind as a whole--as in on a global scale--is ludicrously terrible at it. And why Simple. If you do not study, train in/for, and respect a skill (such as Reflection, then there's no gaedaemn way in bloody hey-ell that you'd possess any proficiency in it let alone hold expertise nor mastery. That'd be like a boxer who'd never once studied nor trained jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, nor any FOOTWORK. Are you joking! You cannot comprehend what you have not studied. No exceptions.
Before I start, I must see my end. Destination known, my mind’s journey now begins. Upon my chariot, heart and soul’s fate revealed. In time, all points converge, hope’s strength resteeled. But to earn final peace at the universe’s endless refrain, we must see all in nothingness. before we start again.
--Diamond Dragons (series)
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msmd3295
I largely agree with Plato. too much personal freedom, freedom that supersedes Civility will inevitably Collapse any civilization and AMERICA is the most recent candidate. His notion of banning atheism was wrongly premised upon a moral order based upon ancient ignorance, mysticism & supernaturalism. What America does is promote itself as the 'land of the free'. hardly any mention of conformity to social expectations or the rule of law. The proof of just how tenuous America is. they're sufficiently Corrupt to reelect a FELON to the highest office in their land! If THAT isn't proof positive that the 'end is near' for America it's difficult to imagine what proof would be needed.
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I largely agree with Plato. too much personal freedom, freedom that supersedes Civility will inevitably Collapse any civilization and AMERICA is the most recent candidate. His notion of banning atheism was wrongly premised upon a moral order based upon ancient ignorance, mysticism & supernaturalism. What America does is promote itself as the 'land of the free'. hardly any mention of conformity to social expectations or the rule of law. The proof of just how tenuous America is. they're sufficiently Corrupt to reelect a FELON to the highest office in their land! If THAT isn't proof positive that the 'end is near' for America it's difficult to imagine what proof would be needed.
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EEBmtb
What would Plato have made of the types of leaders that gained power by acting like all they did was care about other people, even, and up to, claiming that a good’ citizen would only vote for the rights of other people and forego their own interests entirely. And this would be deemed the only way to gauge yourself as a citizen - by how little you let others advocate on their own behalf.
Almost like the inversion of democracy was had. People based their own worth by how they could prove to everyone that they didn’t give a hoot about their own lives, and, that, they only lived for the wellbeing of others.
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What would Plato have made of the types of leaders that gained power by acting like all they did was care about other people, even, and up to, claiming that a good’ citizen would only vote for the rights of other people and forego their own interests entirely. And this would be deemed the only way to gauge yourself as a citizen - by how little you let others advocate on their own behalf.
Almost like the inversion of democracy was had. People based their own worth by how they could prove to everyone that they didn’t give a hoot about their own lives, and, that, they only lived for the wellbeing of others.
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jep_py
Much like what is happening in the Philippines, every president that came after the dictator Ferdinand Marcos Sr. promoted democracy and freedom until another authoritarian emerged in the form of Rodrigo Duterte. It's scary to think the accuracy in Plato's mind because majority of the public who supported Duterte also complained that there was too much democracy and that the Philippines needs a ruler with an iron fist. And that's exactly what happened. Now the country suffers with a government riddled with his cronies, a crumbling justice system, and a culture of violence.
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Much like what is happening in the Philippines, every president that came after the dictator Ferdinand Marcos Sr. promoted democracy and freedom until another authoritarian emerged in the form of Rodrigo Duterte. It's scary to think the accuracy in Plato's mind because majority of the public who supported Duterte also complained that there was too much democracy and that the Philippines needs a ruler with an iron fist. And that's exactly what happened. Now the country suffers with a government riddled with his cronies, a crumbling justice system, and a culture of violence.
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ncuco
I always thought current democracy was flawed.
Plato thought ppl should know more about what they are voting for. So in my version of democracy, educated ppl would get an extra vote. i. e. People with a degree, or people that pass a common sense test
(statically, there is a good probability that if u have a college degree u are educated enough to make the right decision. if u are not, your opinion will be diluted anyway. And if u have no higher education and are smart, than u will have no difficulty passing the common sense test)
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I always thought current democracy was flawed.
Plato thought ppl should know more about what they are voting for. So in my version of democracy, educated ppl would get an extra vote. i. e. People with a degree, or people that pass a common sense test
(statically, there is a good probability that if u have a college degree u are educated enough to make the right decision. if u are not, your opinion will be diluted anyway. And if u have no higher education and are smart, than u will have no difficulty passing the common sense test)
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ted_ed
Can Ted-Ed do a video about how the West and East came to have different views when it comes to individualism and collectivism, especially when it comes to family dynamics and government social policies Is it religion Longer lasting Monarchies Weaker European influence Something in languages Also, the US/Europe trace their cultural influence to ancient Greece. China had its own ancient civilizations. Do Chinese people trace their cultural influence to ancient China, or to somewhere else
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Can Ted-Ed do a video about how the West and East came to have different views when it comes to individualism and collectivism, especially when it comes to family dynamics and government social policies Is it religion Longer lasting Monarchies Weaker European influence Something in languages Also, the US/Europe trace their cultural influence to ancient Greece. China had its own ancient civilizations. Do Chinese people trace their cultural influence to ancient China, or to somewhere else
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brunohannud
Perfect Societies start with the internal prerequisite of Functional Families. They remain Perfect Whilst everyone knows what their reach is. Through Governance. This is what Equanimity is about.
Different from Igualitarianism, which Able politicians exploit to their own interest. And Similar to What Institutions should prepare themselves to foster. Knowledge of the inherent differences is the necessary condition for inclusion. And is the External prerequisite for Perfect Societies.
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Perfect Societies start with the internal prerequisite of Functional Families. They remain Perfect Whilst everyone knows what their reach is. Through Governance. This is what Equanimity is about.
Different from Igualitarianism, which Able politicians exploit to their own interest. And Similar to What Institutions should prepare themselves to foster. Knowledge of the inherent differences is the necessary condition for inclusion. And is the External prerequisite for Perfect Societies.
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barseraydn7308
His arguments are flawed at one point. Does mastery of the art justify a sole complience to rule Can we not argue against our rulers or question their motives I think we cant acording to him. Because the captain knews some kind of knowledge beyond us but we cant comprehend it. Or just ask this cant we ask questions about rationing in the ship for instance. yes we need to criticize democracy but plato is not a good guy and he wants a totalitarian system based on lies.
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His arguments are flawed at one point. Does mastery of the art justify a sole complience to rule Can we not argue against our rulers or question their motives I think we cant acording to him. Because the captain knews some kind of knowledge beyond us but we cant comprehend it. Or just ask this cant we ask questions about rationing in the ship for instance. yes we need to criticize democracy but plato is not a good guy and he wants a totalitarian system based on lies.
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More_than_alone
I know it's not related to this video but I can't remember the last time Ted Ed released a why should you read video
I really love this series and I read my all time favorite book Lord of the Flies because it was recommended by Ted Ed
Please continue this series
And if you do it would be an incredible honour to start with a work of JRR Tolkien
I hope you notice this comment and honour the great writer and his grand fellowship
Wish you luck
Bye
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I know it's not related to this video but I can't remember the last time Ted Ed released a why should you read video
I really love this series and I read my all time favorite book Lord of the Flies because it was recommended by Ted Ed
Please continue this series
And if you do it would be an incredible honour to start with a work of JRR Tolkien
I hope you notice this comment and honour the great writer and his grand fellowship
Wish you luck
Bye
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ZennExile
Ideal society is one that continues to evolve. Doesn't matter how. The threat is from those who would halt that progress because they benefit from something that society is shedding en masse. This is why all politics breaks down to left vs right at some fundamental level. Too much progress harms the established power structure before it can transfer and stabilize power, too little, and power never changes hands at all.
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Ideal society is one that continues to evolve. Doesn't matter how. The threat is from those who would halt that progress because they benefit from something that society is shedding en masse. This is why all politics breaks down to left vs right at some fundamental level. Too much progress harms the established power structure before it can transfer and stabilize power, too little, and power never changes hands at all.
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billwhite1603
It's a shame our teachers long ago decided to target certain religions, teach their personal ideology and not logic or critical thinking. Many students today cannot read or right yet demand the very best. When you talk about educating the masses then instead of a charismatic speaker, it puts everything in a hopefully benign educator class teaching only truth and skills. Like good communism that will never happen.
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It's a shame our teachers long ago decided to target certain religions, teach their personal ideology and not logic or critical thinking. Many students today cannot read or right yet demand the very best. When you talk about educating the masses then instead of a charismatic speaker, it puts everything in a hopefully benign educator class teaching only truth and skills. Like good communism that will never happen.
reply
stevenc2317
Of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics the greatest number have begun their career, by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing Demagogues, and ending Tyrants.
Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers
It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
-John Adams
Think they studied Plato Yup.
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Of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics the greatest number have begun their career, by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing Demagogues, and ending Tyrants.
Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers
It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
-John Adams
Think they studied Plato Yup.
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BorfaDaba
0: 00 The Ship of State
0: 45 Athenian Direct Democracy
1: 36 First Concern: The Power of Orators
2: 14 Second Concern: The Obsession with Freedom
2: 49 The Rise of the Tyrant
3: 00 A New Model in The Laws
3: 16 The City of Magnesia
3: 36 Laws with Preludes
4: 16 Moral Education and the Common Good
4: 33 Safeguards Against Corruption
4: 51 The Flaws of Magnesia
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0: 00 The Ship of State
0: 45 Athenian Direct Democracy
1: 36 First Concern: The Power of Orators
2: 14 Second Concern: The Obsession with Freedom
2: 49 The Rise of the Tyrant
3: 00 A New Model in The Laws
3: 16 The City of Magnesia
3: 36 Laws with Preludes
4: 16 Moral Education and the Common Good
4: 33 Safeguards Against Corruption
4: 51 The Flaws of Magnesia
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DavidLuyen-x3k
I'm no expert but for a functioning, democratic society to survive its population should have at least have clear full picture of the issues it society is struggling with. Or at least the candidates should have some competence or knowledge to do their job when put in office. And policies that should be voted for/against based on logic for log-term results.
But that's just me.
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I'm no expert but for a functioning, democratic society to survive its population should have at least have clear full picture of the issues it society is struggling with. Or at least the candidates should have some competence or knowledge to do their job when put in office. And policies that should be voted for/against based on logic for log-term results.
But that's just me.
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TheFatChicck
I'm just as suss over a monarchy system than a representative democracy. What REALLY needs to be implemented is comprehensive education about the system along with a varied yet tailored answer to the question what's in it for us The antisocial fools should be exempted since they're clearly a danger to society and in need of special-needs education.
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I'm just as suss over a monarchy system than a representative democracy. What REALLY needs to be implemented is comprehensive education about the system along with a varied yet tailored answer to the question what's in it for us The antisocial fools should be exempted since they're clearly a danger to society and in need of special-needs education.
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Maljurok
So basically, Plato's idea for this was to ensure the population stays properly educated on matters so the people can make more educated decisions and properly understand why a law is the way it is. Given what is going on in schools at this very moment, I worry the US might be going through a proper education crisis even outside of schools.
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So basically, Plato's idea for this was to ensure the population stays properly educated on matters so the people can make more educated decisions and properly understand why a law is the way it is. Given what is going on in schools at this very moment, I worry the US might be going through a proper education crisis even outside of schools.
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dutyofcivility
Yes, democracies are popularity contests, and the popular ones are (often) not the competent ones. Yes, Magnesia's education system will lead to more stability and public legitimacy. But will the Magnesian citizens be truly free, even if they think they are Or do they not care about freedom in its own right
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Yes, democracies are popularity contests, and the popular ones are (often) not the competent ones. Yes, Magnesia's education system will lead to more stability and public legitimacy. But will the Magnesian citizens be truly free, even if they think they are Or do they not care about freedom in its own right
reply
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