Why PCIe 4 matters, the Mac Pro returns, and Q&A - The Full Nerd Ep. 95
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Date: 2022-03-15
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Comments and reviews: 10
TheDarthTux
Another fun Full Nerd show. All this talk of new tech is confusing my upgrade decision AM5 2021 vs TR300 2021 vs 16-core AM4 may be 2020?
Actually agree with Adam re the Mac Pro. These workstations have never been for average Joes and the only time we can get them is once the huge professional studios start offloading them in 7 to 10years. I got 2 2006 Mac Pros for around a combined $500 (including CPU and RAM upgrades. Running them as Linux media and compute servers and they are far far better as servers than any DIY build I had from 2006, could even do data science workloads.
Saying that, when it comes to Adobe working better with PC and using CUDA, people seem to forget that the monogamous marriage between Apple and AMD was only recent, like just around the time of the Nvidia Maxwell cards. Prior to this Nvidia GPUs were the main tools for rendering because Nvidia really marketed CUDA while AMD did nothing meaningful with Stream SDK and then jumped fully to OpenCL in 2009. OpenCL is also developed as a very broad standard and not architecture specific so while Nvidia were tuning CUDA to their GPU architecture, OpenCL features were not fully implemented since some are optional meaning you were unsure if your workflow would carry forward if you changed graphics cards or if OpenCL was updated.
So it was unlikely that studios using the Mac Pro and companies like Adobe would use anything other than Nvidia GPUs and CUDA. OpenCL is more mature now and with Apple cutting off support for Nvidia GPUs and pushing for OpenCL and Metal as well as probably working with AMD to produce their own GPUs, CUDA may very well have its days numbered. This may also explain why Nvidia are pushing their Studio laptops and probably to come workstations.
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Another fun Full Nerd show. All this talk of new tech is confusing my upgrade decision AM5 2021 vs TR300 2021 vs 16-core AM4 may be 2020?
Actually agree with Adam re the Mac Pro. These workstations have never been for average Joes and the only time we can get them is once the huge professional studios start offloading them in 7 to 10years. I got 2 2006 Mac Pros for around a combined $500 (including CPU and RAM upgrades. Running them as Linux media and compute servers and they are far far better as servers than any DIY build I had from 2006, could even do data science workloads.
Saying that, when it comes to Adobe working better with PC and using CUDA, people seem to forget that the monogamous marriage between Apple and AMD was only recent, like just around the time of the Nvidia Maxwell cards. Prior to this Nvidia GPUs were the main tools for rendering because Nvidia really marketed CUDA while AMD did nothing meaningful with Stream SDK and then jumped fully to OpenCL in 2009. OpenCL is also developed as a very broad standard and not architecture specific so while Nvidia were tuning CUDA to their GPU architecture, OpenCL features were not fully implemented since some are optional meaning you were unsure if your workflow would carry forward if you changed graphics cards or if OpenCL was updated.
So it was unlikely that studios using the Mac Pro and companies like Adobe would use anything other than Nvidia GPUs and CUDA. OpenCL is more mature now and with Apple cutting off support for Nvidia GPUs and pushing for OpenCL and Metal as well as probably working with AMD to produce their own GPUs, CUDA may very well have its days numbered. This may also explain why Nvidia are pushing their Studio laptops and probably to come workstations.
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Enoch
I-m glad ASRock has implemented Thunderbolt on some of their X570 motherboards. Thunderbolt is just not for laptops. For audio interfaces and video capture and playback devices benefit a lot from the low latency and high bandwidth Thunderbolt provides. The 2019 Mac Pro comes with 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports as standard and support for up to 12 Thunderbolt 3 ports. I don-t get it when people say it is kinda modular. The only problem is with Nvidia and Apple. Most other PCIe cards work. Avid even show better functionality with now ability to use up to 6 HDX cards, Universal Audio also said their UAD2 DSP cards will be supported, Blackmagic Design will also have their DeckLink PCIe Cards. So say Avid release new HDX cards you can easily swap them with the old cards. If Universal Audio update their UAD2 cards with new UAD3 cards it is easy to swap them. You don-t even have to use the Apple Proprietary MPX modules because they have opened the MPX tech to 3rd parties. You don-t have to buy from Apple the RAM, GPU or PCIe cards. I wish they had support for PCIe 4. 0 which is really Intel-s fault, but I think PCIe 3. 0 will suit most use cases for another 5 or even more years. The PCIe 3. 0 is good enough to implement 8K workflows with the Afterburner. This new Mac Pro is the most modular computer Apple has ever released and on par with Windows and Linux prebuilt systems.
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I-m glad ASRock has implemented Thunderbolt on some of their X570 motherboards. Thunderbolt is just not for laptops. For audio interfaces and video capture and playback devices benefit a lot from the low latency and high bandwidth Thunderbolt provides. The 2019 Mac Pro comes with 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports as standard and support for up to 12 Thunderbolt 3 ports. I don-t get it when people say it is kinda modular. The only problem is with Nvidia and Apple. Most other PCIe cards work. Avid even show better functionality with now ability to use up to 6 HDX cards, Universal Audio also said their UAD2 DSP cards will be supported, Blackmagic Design will also have their DeckLink PCIe Cards. So say Avid release new HDX cards you can easily swap them with the old cards. If Universal Audio update their UAD2 cards with new UAD3 cards it is easy to swap them. You don-t even have to use the Apple Proprietary MPX modules because they have opened the MPX tech to 3rd parties. You don-t have to buy from Apple the RAM, GPU or PCIe cards. I wish they had support for PCIe 4. 0 which is really Intel-s fault, but I think PCIe 3. 0 will suit most use cases for another 5 or even more years. The PCIe 3. 0 is good enough to implement 8K workflows with the Afterburner. This new Mac Pro is the most modular computer Apple has ever released and on par with Windows and Linux prebuilt systems.
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brad
PCIe forms part of the Foundation for Infinity Fabric on Zen based Processors and that support, in addition to being on the motherboard is also carried over onto the CPU package and dies internal to the CPU. Current Ryzen, EPYC and TR chips only support PCIe 3 internally.
x16 PCIe 3. 0 has 32GB/s available bandwidth to a GPU. Double that for PCIe4. Ryzen IF with DDR4 Ram at 3200MT has a max bandwidth of 51. 2GB/s over each of the interconnects and the DDR 4 controller is connected by a single interconnect. That bandwidth down that single connection to memory has to be shared between two 8 thread CCX modules, two x16 PCIe controllers with their associated demands from the GPU, NVMe, USB and SATA all through a hub and spoke type configuration. The design forces the memory access requests queue up in the central Data Fabric switch rather than in the buffers of the Memory Controller as it would on an Intel System that uses a ring configuration with double the bandwidth.
In addition to faster NVMe, Double the signalling makes double the bandwidth available between CPU cores and the memory Controller and should theoretically, be the single largest contributor to th edemonstrated improvements demonstrated in Ryzen 3000 gaming performance. It will be interesting to confirm that when Chips and motherboards become available to test.
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PCIe forms part of the Foundation for Infinity Fabric on Zen based Processors and that support, in addition to being on the motherboard is also carried over onto the CPU package and dies internal to the CPU. Current Ryzen, EPYC and TR chips only support PCIe 3 internally.
x16 PCIe 3. 0 has 32GB/s available bandwidth to a GPU. Double that for PCIe4. Ryzen IF with DDR4 Ram at 3200MT has a max bandwidth of 51. 2GB/s over each of the interconnects and the DDR 4 controller is connected by a single interconnect. That bandwidth down that single connection to memory has to be shared between two 8 thread CCX modules, two x16 PCIe controllers with their associated demands from the GPU, NVMe, USB and SATA all through a hub and spoke type configuration. The design forces the memory access requests queue up in the central Data Fabric switch rather than in the buffers of the Memory Controller as it would on an Intel System that uses a ring configuration with double the bandwidth.
In addition to faster NVMe, Double the signalling makes double the bandwidth available between CPU cores and the memory Controller and should theoretically, be the single largest contributor to th edemonstrated improvements demonstrated in Ryzen 3000 gaming performance. It will be interesting to confirm that when Chips and motherboards become available to test.
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Mike
The only reason to have PCI-E 4. 0 is to enable faster IO for more commponents. Not graphics.
It's a matter of running out of space for traces in the current form factors and layers.
If you want faster storage and fast ethernet, and fast USB C ports all pulling at once you need higher bandwidth within the same number of traces. So you need PCI-E 4. 0
Nothing to do with graphics really.
On PCI-E 3. 0 graphics cards are not impacted by over a few % using a slot at 8x instead of 16.
So you could a run top of the line graphics card on 4x PCI-E slot with no issues. Now that's some serious capacity!
We will actually get the mainstream platforms that can actually use all of the plugs at full speed!
It only gets better with PCI-E 5. 0 too, 2x again.
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The only reason to have PCI-E 4. 0 is to enable faster IO for more commponents. Not graphics.
It's a matter of running out of space for traces in the current form factors and layers.
If you want faster storage and fast ethernet, and fast USB C ports all pulling at once you need higher bandwidth within the same number of traces. So you need PCI-E 4. 0
Nothing to do with graphics really.
On PCI-E 3. 0 graphics cards are not impacted by over a few % using a slot at 8x instead of 16.
So you could a run top of the line graphics card on 4x PCI-E slot with no issues. Now that's some serious capacity!
We will actually get the mainstream platforms that can actually use all of the plugs at full speed!
It only gets better with PCI-E 5. 0 too, 2x again.
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Travis
Journalists don-t seem understand that RED sells a $550 handle for their camera, Arri sells $15+ single light units, and most follow focuses, matte boxes, and 7inch monitors cost thousands of dollars.
For the love of God open a B&H Photo catalog. These same journalist praise the RED and don-t complain out it-s pointless handle. These tools are for pros not youtubers making videos in their basement.
Many professionals and companies have no problem spending money on gear that makes sense for their workflows. I have spent much much more on thing the public would say are crazy but they are important tools for my companies workflow and well worth the cost.
Arri looks crazy expensive to an outsider, guess who owns the lighting market in the industry.
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Journalists don-t seem understand that RED sells a $550 handle for their camera, Arri sells $15+ single light units, and most follow focuses, matte boxes, and 7inch monitors cost thousands of dollars.
For the love of God open a B&H Photo catalog. These same journalist praise the RED and don-t complain out it-s pointless handle. These tools are for pros not youtubers making videos in their basement.
Many professionals and companies have no problem spending money on gear that makes sense for their workflows. I have spent much much more on thing the public would say are crazy but they are important tools for my companies workflow and well worth the cost.
Arri looks crazy expensive to an outsider, guess who owns the lighting market in the industry.
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JackieNoobFilms
Just FYI, the new Mac Pro actually has up to 2 8-pin PCIe power conectors to use for other types of PCIe cards that require. And the original Mac Pro could have new graphics cards and Apple was selling them on the accessories page for it. The base model was an HD5770, but you could have an HD5870 or (if I recall correctly) Quadros FX4800's and FX5800's. Although they were reference models, they had a markup on Apples website, I think, but you could have any version of these cards. Still, we'll have to wait and see. 1k$ for a stand? that's a whole new level of Apple ridiculous.
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Just FYI, the new Mac Pro actually has up to 2 8-pin PCIe power conectors to use for other types of PCIe cards that require. And the original Mac Pro could have new graphics cards and Apple was selling them on the accessories page for it. The base model was an HD5770, but you could have an HD5870 or (if I recall correctly) Quadros FX4800's and FX5800's. Although they were reference models, they had a markup on Apples website, I think, but you could have any version of these cards. Still, we'll have to wait and see. 1k$ for a stand? that's a whole new level of Apple ridiculous.
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Matt
Some people Just dont get it. Adam Does. And if you disagree, having worked in the Pro Audio field, Not just high tech. High End. you Win Elitist's lose with your non server class gaming rigs.
Doesn't matter if -you- need it or not. Theres a market thats niche. Just as niche as a company designing and programming its OS for its computer, yep. not a console.
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Some people Just dont get it. Adam Does. And if you disagree, having worked in the Pro Audio field, Not just high tech. High End. you Win Elitist's lose with your non server class gaming rigs.
Doesn't matter if -you- need it or not. Theres a market thats niche. Just as niche as a company designing and programming its OS for its computer, yep. not a console.
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Integer0verload
Adam is right. In electrical engineering they charge us an annual service fee of $50k for the right to download the software suite or updates we just paid $20k for. Some companies won't do it you get the disks that came with the software and that's it. We do use PC though because we're not traitors. ADAM - -- 2 soft serves for you sir.
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Adam is right. In electrical engineering they charge us an annual service fee of $50k for the right to download the software suite or updates we just paid $20k for. Some companies won't do it you get the disks that came with the software and that's it. We do use PC though because we're not traitors. ADAM - -- 2 soft serves for you sir.
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NYSME
you guys are just as bad as the verge miss speaking ASIC vs FPGA on the Afterburner card? With the PCIe as long as there are drivers there are many 3rd party cards you can add in. AMD video cards may need BIOS for boot screen but many can work just fine. Nvidia has web drivers for Mac, again as long as its supported.
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you guys are just as bad as the verge miss speaking ASIC vs FPGA on the Afterburner card? With the PCIe as long as there are drivers there are many 3rd party cards you can add in. AMD video cards may need BIOS for boot screen but many can work just fine. Nvidia has web drivers for Mac, again as long as its supported.
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Tom
I love it when the Mac faithful say -you don't understand- when challenged by the price of the Mac Pro and monitor and stand. That's the same logic that brainwashed religious people say. No wonder there is a -Cult of the Mac-. Steve Jobs learned how to brainwash people when he was living on the commune in Oregon.
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I love it when the Mac faithful say -you don't understand- when challenged by the price of the Mac Pro and monitor and stand. That's the same logic that brainwashed religious people say. No wonder there is a -Cult of the Mac-. Steve Jobs learned how to brainwash people when he was living on the commune in Oregon.
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