Why Isn't AMD Releasing A 5950X3D Or 5600X3D?
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Date: 2022-03-15
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Comments and reviews: 10
Nocturnal101
Well I mean a quick question, How many did they sell of each processor? 5950X was kind of expensive for everyday people, sure it was great for content creators that needed all the extra cores, while the 5600X might have sold really well it ended up being in a tough spot for the price, the 5800X while in a similar tough spot was about the closest processor during the Pandemic you could buy that was near MSRP I seen alot of them only having a markup of $50-100 where as others were marked up worse to the point it made no sense buying a 5600X because they sold more popularly, Also the 5800X is just powerful enough to benefit from the V cache I would assume. I mean if anything because of pricing the 8C/16T chip ended up being the best gaming choice especially if all you were doing is streaming and light videos so I imagine it ended up being the king of the generation even though it may have been the worst prospect of the bunch at MSRP.
Edit- I will also add this is for people who originally bought a 5600X when they first came out and now may want to make the system last a bit longer till a couple gen of AM5 go by with workers returning to work and lockdowns and the pandemic winding down, Companies will be competing for the retail sector especially as supply go back to normality over the next year or so, Graphics will still depend on Miners and Flippers buying up supply, but even now I have been seeing Retail spots having GPUs for sale at MSRP, at this point flippers will be betting on people physically going to stores on truck offload days and buying the product at physical retail where online they can still ping pong the prices and manipulate pricing.
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Well I mean a quick question, How many did they sell of each processor? 5950X was kind of expensive for everyday people, sure it was great for content creators that needed all the extra cores, while the 5600X might have sold really well it ended up being in a tough spot for the price, the 5800X while in a similar tough spot was about the closest processor during the Pandemic you could buy that was near MSRP I seen alot of them only having a markup of $50-100 where as others were marked up worse to the point it made no sense buying a 5600X because they sold more popularly, Also the 5800X is just powerful enough to benefit from the V cache I would assume. I mean if anything because of pricing the 8C/16T chip ended up being the best gaming choice especially if all you were doing is streaming and light videos so I imagine it ended up being the king of the generation even though it may have been the worst prospect of the bunch at MSRP.
Edit- I will also add this is for people who originally bought a 5600X when they first came out and now may want to make the system last a bit longer till a couple gen of AM5 go by with workers returning to work and lockdowns and the pandemic winding down, Companies will be competing for the retail sector especially as supply go back to normality over the next year or so, Graphics will still depend on Miners and Flippers buying up supply, but even now I have been seeing Retail spots having GPUs for sale at MSRP, at this point flippers will be betting on people physically going to stores on truck offload days and buying the product at physical retail where online they can still ping pong the prices and manipulate pricing.
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Kneedragon1962
About 6 min into it - price is one, the price they can charge for those parts on an EPYC chip is huge, and they have more orders than they can fill.
2 It is a great help to games and gamers. As you say, how much it would help other programs, well that depends.
3 Heat! It does run hot, and maybe you can cool one core dye but you probably can't (adequately) cool two.
4 There's a new Zen family on the way, on AM5 about Christmas time. If we drop one tease now, to retain the fastest gaming crown, that will hold the game until early next year when the AM5 stuff drops.
5 Again, as you say, the latency with 3d cache right there, is going to be very low, but if a core on dye 1 needs to access some cache (L2 or L3) on the other dye. that's going to be a whole different proposition. Your almost zero latency just went out the window. Now can you get programs to use the cache near the core they're running in? Perhaps, but I don't know that software (programs) or software (Operating system) are built for that yet.
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About 6 min into it - price is one, the price they can charge for those parts on an EPYC chip is huge, and they have more orders than they can fill.
2 It is a great help to games and gamers. As you say, how much it would help other programs, well that depends.
3 Heat! It does run hot, and maybe you can cool one core dye but you probably can't (adequately) cool two.
4 There's a new Zen family on the way, on AM5 about Christmas time. If we drop one tease now, to retain the fastest gaming crown, that will hold the game until early next year when the AM5 stuff drops.
5 Again, as you say, the latency with 3d cache right there, is going to be very low, but if a core on dye 1 needs to access some cache (L2 or L3) on the other dye. that's going to be a whole different proposition. Your almost zero latency just went out the window. Now can you get programs to use the cache near the core they're running in? Perhaps, but I don't know that software (programs) or software (Operating system) are built for that yet.
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SwirlingDragonMist
Naw foo, 5800 got it because the tech media sh-t all over 5800 for being 50$ too expensive, and now AMD has a pile of lower binned 5950 dies for 5800's that nobody wants, so slap some V-cache in there and suddenly they're sellable. It's an inventory clearance strategy. If they launched all the products with V-cache updates simultaneously they would still be hard pressed to shake the stigma around the 5800 tier. This new move brings glory and prestige to the reshape the narrative around -5800-. This behavior makes me suspect that once they've moved through inventory, they'll be bringing the whole lineup into v-cache, and they'll save 5600 for after all the competition has shown their cards, pricing it perhaps even at a loss for holiday season so they can offer also take the crown in terms of cost per performance. While the higher tier 5900x3d and 5950x3d will have their costs rise to avoid alienating 5800 again, and maintain healthy margins in a high demand market.
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Naw foo, 5800 got it because the tech media sh-t all over 5800 for being 50$ too expensive, and now AMD has a pile of lower binned 5950 dies for 5800's that nobody wants, so slap some V-cache in there and suddenly they're sellable. It's an inventory clearance strategy. If they launched all the products with V-cache updates simultaneously they would still be hard pressed to shake the stigma around the 5800 tier. This new move brings glory and prestige to the reshape the narrative around -5800-. This behavior makes me suspect that once they've moved through inventory, they'll be bringing the whole lineup into v-cache, and they'll save 5600 for after all the competition has shown their cards, pricing it perhaps even at a loss for holiday season so they can offer also take the crown in terms of cost per performance. While the higher tier 5900x3d and 5950x3d will have their costs rise to avoid alienating 5800 again, and maintain healthy margins in a high demand market.
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itech
3D cache aids in gaming most of all. Since the 5950 isn't exactly a gaming chip per se, why bother at this point? And so in order to not overly complicate their production lines, the 5800x represents the one sweet spot where they could best leverage their 3D cache tech. That said, once the Zen 4 range has settled in properly in the market, they could still add 3D cache to the top-tier Zen 3 chips in a final refresh for the outgoing range for those who are not ready to part with their AM4 mobos yet.
I noticed they had to drop the stock & boost clocks on the 5800x to make the 3D cache work. Eagerly waiting for the reviews to see if this affects its overclocking potential and how much of a penalty the reduced clocks impose in non-gaming applications.
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3D cache aids in gaming most of all. Since the 5950 isn't exactly a gaming chip per se, why bother at this point? And so in order to not overly complicate their production lines, the 5800x represents the one sweet spot where they could best leverage their 3D cache tech. That said, once the Zen 4 range has settled in properly in the market, they could still add 3D cache to the top-tier Zen 3 chips in a final refresh for the outgoing range for those who are not ready to part with their AM4 mobos yet.
I noticed they had to drop the stock & boost clocks on the 5800x to make the 3D cache work. Eagerly waiting for the reviews to see if this affects its overclocking potential and how much of a penalty the reduced clocks impose in non-gaming applications.
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Marcin
Or rather 5800X is not as good a bestseller as other AMD CPUs are, as 5600X is for the slightly lower perf but lower price, and 5900X/5950X would certainly benefit more but these would then even make their current TR nigh-on obsolete, so going with a price hike and new arch on the 8c chip is just a safe bet that would not undermine selling points of any other product in the stack. Or maybe cause if they introduced dual die 3D V-cache, keeping in mind that these chips are already dealing with inter-CCD intra-package cache reaching in their current 32MB/core complex design, this increase would make it far harder to showcase big jumps in performance upon Zen4 release later in the year (who knows what their internal tests are currently showing.
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Or rather 5800X is not as good a bestseller as other AMD CPUs are, as 5600X is for the slightly lower perf but lower price, and 5900X/5950X would certainly benefit more but these would then even make their current TR nigh-on obsolete, so going with a price hike and new arch on the 8c chip is just a safe bet that would not undermine selling points of any other product in the stack. Or maybe cause if they introduced dual die 3D V-cache, keeping in mind that these chips are already dealing with inter-CCD intra-package cache reaching in their current 32MB/core complex design, this increase would make it far harder to showcase big jumps in performance upon Zen4 release later in the year (who knows what their internal tests are currently showing.
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Paul-Sebastian
One main reason: to be able to use a higher pricing scheme around the board, including with upcoming CPUs. The upcoming Zen 4 CPUs will beat Intel again but they want to be able to up the price for these new CPUs significantly justified by their lead, but that would make the CPUs hard to buy by AMD-fans that cannot afford top tier prices, so they made their best bang for buck gaming CPU even better in order to beat Intel's current CPUs that regained the lead in gaming, and which Intel will probably make cheaper when Zen 4 comes out, so this way they maintain the lead in the mid-market as well as the upcoming market that Zen 4 will lead probably around the whole stack.
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One main reason: to be able to use a higher pricing scheme around the board, including with upcoming CPUs. The upcoming Zen 4 CPUs will beat Intel again but they want to be able to up the price for these new CPUs significantly justified by their lead, but that would make the CPUs hard to buy by AMD-fans that cannot afford top tier prices, so they made their best bang for buck gaming CPU even better in order to beat Intel's current CPUs that regained the lead in gaming, and which Intel will probably make cheaper when Zen 4 comes out, so this way they maintain the lead in the mid-market as well as the upcoming market that Zen 4 will lead probably around the whole stack.
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smakfu
My guess is they will do a 5950x3D, and that-s it-ll come sometime towards the end of Q1. The 5600x and 5900x are made from binned 6 core CCD chiplets (via CCD core block tests performed prior to packaging) so those dies will never get the extra cache; which leaves the 5950x using the same CCD-s as the 5800x. The 5800x sits in the 8 core sweet-spot of the market, so it makes sense, with limited production capacity, to address that market first and then ship a 5950 variant.
That said, I-m pretty sure they-ll do the 16core part, because it carries significant margin headroom, and there-s a lot of AM4 out there to support that SKU as an upgrade path.
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My guess is they will do a 5950x3D, and that-s it-ll come sometime towards the end of Q1. The 5600x and 5900x are made from binned 6 core CCD chiplets (via CCD core block tests performed prior to packaging) so those dies will never get the extra cache; which leaves the 5950x using the same CCD-s as the 5800x. The 5800x sits in the 8 core sweet-spot of the market, so it makes sense, with limited production capacity, to address that market first and then ship a 5950 variant.
That said, I-m pretty sure they-ll do the 16core part, because it carries significant margin headroom, and there-s a lot of AM4 out there to support that SKU as an upgrade path.
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Josua
looking at how the V-cache thing rest on top of the whole chiplet, I highly suspect that it needs the chiplet to be perfect as well, a. k. a. no defect and disabled cores like the 5600X. So the 5600X3D and 5900X3D are out of the picture. for 5950X3D, I highly suspect AMD ran into thermal issue early on. I mean, silicon isn't the best heat conductor out there. If the heat from your cores still need to go through more silicon to reach the cooler, it's not gonna be fun times, considering the normal 5950X already eats that much juice.
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looking at how the V-cache thing rest on top of the whole chiplet, I highly suspect that it needs the chiplet to be perfect as well, a. k. a. no defect and disabled cores like the 5600X. So the 5600X3D and 5900X3D are out of the picture. for 5950X3D, I highly suspect AMD ran into thermal issue early on. I mean, silicon isn't the best heat conductor out there. If the heat from your cores still need to go through more silicon to reach the cooler, it's not gonna be fun times, considering the normal 5950X already eats that much juice.
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John
-AMD likes to make money. it's how they pay for things-
-AMD bases their CPU decisions on the landscape they see when they launch-
You, you mean that they evaluate the programs and processes we use and try to make hardware that is most dialed-in to what we might need?
And this is all a base commercial decision?
It's Commerce baby. you give something up and we'll pay ya!
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-AMD likes to make money. it's how they pay for things-
-AMD bases their CPU decisions on the landscape they see when they launch-
You, you mean that they evaluate the programs and processes we use and try to make hardware that is most dialed-in to what we might need?
And this is all a base commercial decision?
It's Commerce baby. you give something up and we'll pay ya!
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Ole
AMD also wants to sell Threadripper, which starts at 128 MB L3. So of course they will not up the 64 MB of a 5950x. And I'm sure more cores (8 vs. 6) will benefit more from more cache. Plus: The cost of adding V-cache to the chip will be the same for the 5600x and the 5800x - thus a similar price increase, which will make the 5600x rather unreasonable.
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AMD also wants to sell Threadripper, which starts at 128 MB L3. So of course they will not up the 64 MB of a 5950x. And I'm sure more cores (8 vs. 6) will benefit more from more cache. Plus: The cost of adding V-cache to the chip will be the same for the 5600x and the 5800x - thus a similar price increase, which will make the 5600x rather unreasonable.
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