Off-road mega test - what's the best 4x4 - Land Cruiser takes on Defender and Grenadier
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Date: 2025-01-19
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Comments and reviews: 20
maxtorque2277
Please note, a re-circulating ball steering box can have less kickback off road compared to a steering rack, not because it is mounted on the chassis, but simply because it has roughly twice the friction of the rack! Hence, hit is, and there is a much higher damping force, so the handwheel jerks less for that input! It's pretty much impossible for a passenger or small commercial vehicle to have a front beam axle with a steering rack (you have to mount the rack to the axle and somehow deal with a very tortuous and poor geometrical solution for the connection to the handwheel steering column (it's do-able for large commercial vehicles or things with purely hydraulic systems.
The reason the Toyota and the LR have independant suspensions is nothing to do with axle articulation and EVERYTHING to do with getting decent steering for the 99. 9% of time users drive on-road or in light off-road conditions (ie rough roads / gravel tracks etc)
The Grenadier uses a beam axle because someone not very clever still though this is the best solution for axle articulation, when in 2025 it basicaly makes no difference as the limiting factor for any road homologated car is the roll stiffness required to pass the moose test and similar swerve at high speed tests. Here, it's absolutely necessary to have enough front suspension lateral roll stiffness to prevent the car from turning upside down, or from losing control. Without active or disconnectable ARBs (jeep) you are always compromised here, and the front axle system may as well be optimised for on-road performance (steering feel / linearity and vehicle safety / stability, rather than chase some silly mythical beam axles are best off road nonsense.
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Please note, a re-circulating ball steering box can have less kickback off road compared to a steering rack, not because it is mounted on the chassis, but simply because it has roughly twice the friction of the rack! Hence, hit is, and there is a much higher damping force, so the handwheel jerks less for that input! It's pretty much impossible for a passenger or small commercial vehicle to have a front beam axle with a steering rack (you have to mount the rack to the axle and somehow deal with a very tortuous and poor geometrical solution for the connection to the handwheel steering column (it's do-able for large commercial vehicles or things with purely hydraulic systems.
The reason the Toyota and the LR have independant suspensions is nothing to do with axle articulation and EVERYTHING to do with getting decent steering for the 99. 9% of time users drive on-road or in light off-road conditions (ie rough roads / gravel tracks etc)
The Grenadier uses a beam axle because someone not very clever still though this is the best solution for axle articulation, when in 2025 it basicaly makes no difference as the limiting factor for any road homologated car is the roll stiffness required to pass the moose test and similar swerve at high speed tests. Here, it's absolutely necessary to have enough front suspension lateral roll stiffness to prevent the car from turning upside down, or from losing control. Without active or disconnectable ARBs (jeep) you are always compromised here, and the front axle system may as well be optimised for on-road performance (steering feel / linearity and vehicle safety / stability, rather than chase some silly mythical beam axles are best off road nonsense.
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akerr911
Drove all three and got the defender. Overall very happy with my choice, you have to look at how you would use them. Defender has excellent road manner and as the majority of the time this is where they will be used it’s the obvious choice. Defender feels well put together with one slight mishap and that the bonnet release handle snapped in my hand after less than 5 usesnot impressed but overall it really is an exceptional car. Would happily recommend a d300! On reliability previous two cars were from Porsche and Audi and both spent time at the dealer in my ownership for warranty issues. I believe owning modern refrigerators this sort of thing comes with the territory regardless of manufacture! Buy what you like who gives a toss what the internet says!
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Drove all three and got the defender. Overall very happy with my choice, you have to look at how you would use them. Defender has excellent road manner and as the majority of the time this is where they will be used it’s the obvious choice. Defender feels well put together with one slight mishap and that the bonnet release handle snapped in my hand after less than 5 usesnot impressed but overall it really is an exceptional car. Would happily recommend a d300! On reliability previous two cars were from Porsche and Audi and both spent time at the dealer in my ownership for warranty issues. I believe owning modern refrigerators this sort of thing comes with the territory regardless of manufacture! Buy what you like who gives a toss what the internet says!
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craig3916
so boring n dumb. when mat Watson is taking hatchbacks around the same offroad ' theme park' u r creeping around at idle speeds, desperate not to dirty up the panels n cashmere floor mats for fear of manufacturer retribution. its impossible to learn anything or even be entertained by this half baked demonstration.
have some imagination, do better.
why not pack them with gear, do point to point somewhere offroad only. pick an island travel somewhere, camping for three days, now there's a 'mega' offroad test, good, the bad, the ugly. n call out any manufacturer won't lend a car for fear of damage
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so boring n dumb. when mat Watson is taking hatchbacks around the same offroad ' theme park' u r creeping around at idle speeds, desperate not to dirty up the panels n cashmere floor mats for fear of manufacturer retribution. its impossible to learn anything or even be entertained by this half baked demonstration.
have some imagination, do better.
why not pack them with gear, do point to point somewhere offroad only. pick an island travel somewhere, camping for three days, now there's a 'mega' offroad test, good, the bad, the ugly. n call out any manufacturer won't lend a car for fear of damage
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hedydd2
You got it wrong. The recirculating ball steering box is rigidly mounted to the chassis so does not move with the axle. It is not possibly to fit superior electric rack and pinion steering to a moving live axle and therefore many safety systems fitted to rivals have to be forgone. It’s a terribly archaic steering system with far too many compromises for a modern vehicle that will inevitably spend the majority of its life on tarmac or mild unpaved roads.
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You got it wrong. The recirculating ball steering box is rigidly mounted to the chassis so does not move with the axle. It is not possibly to fit superior electric rack and pinion steering to a moving live axle and therefore many safety systems fitted to rivals have to be forgone. It’s a terribly archaic steering system with far too many compromises for a modern vehicle that will inevitably spend the majority of its life on tarmac or mild unpaved roads.
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mukwanofred9147
Offroading capability is important. All these vehicles have good offroad prowes. The difference is how dependable, they will be in very long wild travels. I will go with LC or Ineos. That Defender very capable but i may not risk traveling with it 6000km in upcountry travels rather to urban places where can easily get sophiscated technical support in case of break down
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Offroading capability is important. All these vehicles have good offroad prowes. The difference is how dependable, they will be in very long wild travels. I will go with LC or Ineos. That Defender very capable but i may not risk traveling with it 6000km in upcountry travels rather to urban places where can easily get sophiscated technical support in case of break down
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6th. replicant577
Top Gear recently did a similar test, albeit not on an artificial course but in the real’ wild, the Defender was a LWB and they incl a G-wagen.
The Defender was placed last because it struggled off-road, Ineos was 3rd, G-wagen 2nd, Land Cruiser 1st.
Yet here, the Defender wins.
Good old Autocar, as ever, the blinkered, erm, defender of the JLR faith
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Top Gear recently did a similar test, albeit not on an artificial course but in the real’ wild, the Defender was a LWB and they incl a G-wagen.
The Defender was placed last because it struggled off-road, Ineos was 3rd, G-wagen 2nd, Land Cruiser 1st.
Yet here, the Defender wins.
Good old Autocar, as ever, the blinkered, erm, defender of the JLR faith
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RatluBoogerbag
Something to also bear in mind is that with the Grenadier being a new product from a new company, you're going to want a strong dealer and servicing network because things will go wrong. And they just don't have that yet. That's not to say the Defender won't go wrong, as we know they will, but Land Rover have a huge dealer network.
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Something to also bear in mind is that with the Grenadier being a new product from a new company, you're going to want a strong dealer and servicing network because things will go wrong. And they just don't have that yet. That's not to say the Defender won't go wrong, as we know they will, but Land Rover have a huge dealer network.
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KHIJAPAN
then the land rover will fail and cost a fortune to repair
Why don't you use a land rover with a smaller engine, similar to the Toyota
Anyways, the answer is given by the buyers globally Nobody buys land rovers because of their problems. On the other hand, Toyota is thriving because it is what people want to drive
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then the land rover will fail and cost a fortune to repair
Why don't you use a land rover with a smaller engine, similar to the Toyota
Anyways, the answer is given by the buyers globally Nobody buys land rovers because of their problems. On the other hand, Toyota is thriving because it is what people want to drive
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stevejewiss532
Hmmm, not exactly a fair fight, big 5 door versions against a 3 door, though Id take the Duster and save meself a few quid. Would have been interesting to see how the Duster and Jimny compared to these overweight expensive lumps that most people will only ever use to go to the cafe on a saturday or pick the kids up!
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Hmmm, not exactly a fair fight, big 5 door versions against a 3 door, though Id take the Duster and save meself a few quid. Would have been interesting to see how the Duster and Jimny compared to these overweight expensive lumps that most people will only ever use to go to the cafe on a saturday or pick the kids up!
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fredbrackely
If I was living in the rough fringes of the Outback with very little dealer support - get the Toyota. If I was driving off road a lot, and carrying trade tools everywhere - get the Ineos. If I was a regular person who spends most of their life commuting on roads and the occasional off-road foray - get the Defender.
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If I was living in the rough fringes of the Outback with very little dealer support - get the Toyota. If I was driving off road a lot, and carrying trade tools everywhere - get the Ineos. If I was a regular person who spends most of their life commuting on roads and the occasional off-road foray - get the Defender.
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projectwildearth
We're currently on a 5-year trip in a Grenadier across the world towing a Patriot X3, which we live in. If you're watching this, it may be of interest. We set off from London in mid-July 2023 with our two young kids and we’re approaching 50000km. At least 70% of our journey has been off-road.
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We're currently on a 5-year trip in a Grenadier across the world towing a Patriot X3, which we live in. If you're watching this, it may be of interest. We set off from London in mid-July 2023 with our two young kids and we’re approaching 50000km. At least 70% of our journey has been off-road.
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davidlundrigan1435
This has to be one of the worst comparison tests ive seen. firstly, you used the Defender 90 when it should have been the 110, then the vehicles had different tires rendering this a test if tires not vehicles and then to top it off, it was so boring to watch. You got a thumbs down from me.
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This has to be one of the worst comparison tests ive seen. firstly, you used the Defender 90 when it should have been the 110, then the vehicles had different tires rendering this a test if tires not vehicles and then to top it off, it was so boring to watch. You got a thumbs down from me.
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richardbarter9864
Due to the diabolical reliability record of JLR products (I have a number of close friends who are experiencing unbelievably bad problems and non existent service ) it would be the Land Cruiser all day long. Autocar are so sycophantic to JLR though hence the skewed results here
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Due to the diabolical reliability record of JLR products (I have a number of close friends who are experiencing unbelievably bad problems and non existent service ) it would be the Land Cruiser all day long. Autocar are so sycophantic to JLR though hence the skewed results here
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electrikoptik
Of the 3 only the Land Cruiser is built to last a minimum of 25 years in the world’s harshest conditions. The Ineos is unproven and has BMW drivetrain and the Land Rover is, well we all know what the Land Rover is
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Of the 3 only the Land Cruiser is built to last a minimum of 25 years in the world’s harshest conditions. The Ineos is unproven and has BMW drivetrain and the Land Rover is, well we all know what the Land Rover is
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wheelspin10
Sorry but you didn't mention anything about reliability and we know toyota would win that plus more then likely resale value. I'd like to have all 3 but if I was buying with my hard earned cash it would be the Toyota.
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Sorry but you didn't mention anything about reliability and we know toyota would win that plus more then likely resale value. I'd like to have all 3 but if I was buying with my hard earned cash it would be the Toyota.
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73henny
What a joke of a 'test'. A Subaru XV/Crosstrek would easily handle those tests. You were just testing tyres. You need to test break over and departure angles, and not use a 90. FFS this is amateur 'journalism'.
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What a joke of a 'test'. A Subaru XV/Crosstrek would easily handle those tests. You were just testing tyres. You need to test break over and departure angles, and not use a 90. FFS this is amateur 'journalism'.
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tillyfoxtrotter
Where was the summary Poor effort IMV.
Personally its the Ineos for me just for the unbreakable build, next the Toyota and sadly last the LR for its shopping run looks and ubiquity.
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Where was the summary Poor effort IMV.
Personally its the Ineos for me just for the unbreakable build, next the Toyota and sadly last the LR for its shopping run looks and ubiquity.
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ericjohnson6802
I wish Toyota would adopt other LR features like height adjustable air suspension. Only then would we consider buying one. That would at least stop the spare dragging off road.
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I wish Toyota would adopt other LR features like height adjustable air suspension. Only then would we consider buying one. That would at least stop the spare dragging off road.
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getlostrobyn5498
You need to start using the same tyre on all the vehicles in your off road comparisons. The tyres on the Toyota are by far more road orientated than the other two.
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You need to start using the same tyre on all the vehicles in your off road comparisons. The tyres on the Toyota are by far more road orientated than the other two.
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davidhayes4814
Much as these tests seem impressive. crawling speeds over shocking surfaces. to do 15 - 20 mph over heavily pitted surfaces continuously makes more sense.
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Much as these tests seem impressive. crawling speeds over shocking surfaces. to do 15 - 20 mph over heavily pitted surfaces continuously makes more sense.
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