Poverty & Our Response to It: Crash Course Philosophy #44
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Date: 2022-04-04
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Comments and reviews: 10
Daniel
Dan's corollary to Singer's drowning child analogy - the daisy chain.
Julie is walking along a mountain trail and in the extreme distance visible only by binoculars there's a pond in the valley and a child is drowning in the pond. It's impossible by any physical means for Julie to help the child herself - but by stretch of imagination it so happens that there's an unbroken chain of people behind Julie winding all the way down the mountain trail to a road across the valley that terminates at the pond. Someone explains that if Julie will take the $10 in her pocket and pass it to the person behind her, and he pass it to the person behind him, and so on, then when the $10 gets to the last person who is at the pond's edge, then that person will walk in the pond and save the child. Otherwise if Julie does nothing the child will die.
Pulling her money out - Julie realizes its 10 singles, not a $10 bill, she looks at the long line of people stretching to the pond - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands - she wonders how many people will pass all 10 bills along, and how many will keep a bill for themselves. Even if all 10 bills make it to the pond, she wonders if the person at the pond's edge will really respond to the money by saving the child, or pocket the money and let the child drown.
Julie's stomach grumbles, she's hungry, and her own son and daughter, walking right in front of her, tell her they are tired. Seeing the drowning child with her binoculars Julie decides to take a risk and separates one of her ten bills and passes it to the person behind her, hoping but not believing it will make it to the pond where it might help the child, and she hopes that more will be inspired to add to her contribution than to pocket it while her dollar passes along the daisy chain, but she puts the other 9 bills back in her wallet and tells her kids to move on so they can finish this hike and go home.
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Dan's corollary to Singer's drowning child analogy - the daisy chain.
Julie is walking along a mountain trail and in the extreme distance visible only by binoculars there's a pond in the valley and a child is drowning in the pond. It's impossible by any physical means for Julie to help the child herself - but by stretch of imagination it so happens that there's an unbroken chain of people behind Julie winding all the way down the mountain trail to a road across the valley that terminates at the pond. Someone explains that if Julie will take the $10 in her pocket and pass it to the person behind her, and he pass it to the person behind him, and so on, then when the $10 gets to the last person who is at the pond's edge, then that person will walk in the pond and save the child. Otherwise if Julie does nothing the child will die.
Pulling her money out - Julie realizes its 10 singles, not a $10 bill, she looks at the long line of people stretching to the pond - there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands - she wonders how many people will pass all 10 bills along, and how many will keep a bill for themselves. Even if all 10 bills make it to the pond, she wonders if the person at the pond's edge will really respond to the money by saving the child, or pocket the money and let the child drown.
Julie's stomach grumbles, she's hungry, and her own son and daughter, walking right in front of her, tell her they are tired. Seeing the drowning child with her binoculars Julie decides to take a risk and separates one of her ten bills and passes it to the person behind her, hoping but not believing it will make it to the pond where it might help the child, and she hopes that more will be inspired to add to her contribution than to pocket it while her dollar passes along the daisy chain, but she puts the other 9 bills back in her wallet and tells her kids to move on so they can finish this hike and go home.
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yuyurolfer
Ok, so what if you are the guy with the shoes in the analogy of the drowning child.
BUT THEN
you see that a bit further away, 5 kids have been sedated by a villain and they are going to be imminently crushed by an evil killing machine which can only be stopped by pressing a button, and the button is located on an electrified metal platform on which you can walk only if your shoes/feet are not wet, otherwise you get electrocuted to death before you can press the button?
I know it sounds too complicated, but what I really want to get at is: should you dedicate your life to helping people in need NOW, if by saving that money you can invest it/create your own not-for-profit/increase it in general so that in the long run you can save many more people than you could have saved in the beginning? Or, put otherwise, if he could have known his future for certain, should Bill Gates have spent the money and time he was going to put into building Microsoft, and eventually his charity, into, instead, helping poor people?
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Ok, so what if you are the guy with the shoes in the analogy of the drowning child.
BUT THEN
you see that a bit further away, 5 kids have been sedated by a villain and they are going to be imminently crushed by an evil killing machine which can only be stopped by pressing a button, and the button is located on an electrified metal platform on which you can walk only if your shoes/feet are not wet, otherwise you get electrocuted to death before you can press the button?
I know it sounds too complicated, but what I really want to get at is: should you dedicate your life to helping people in need NOW, if by saving that money you can invest it/create your own not-for-profit/increase it in general so that in the long run you can save many more people than you could have saved in the beginning? Or, put otherwise, if he could have known his future for certain, should Bill Gates have spent the money and time he was going to put into building Microsoft, and eventually his charity, into, instead, helping poor people?
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education
The life boat analogy also leaves out the reasons why America has such a big boat and other nation's don't. We made our boat from their wood and paid for it by offering a few powerful people in other nations a spot on our boat. Nations don't exist in a vacuum and they aren't rich or poor because of the choices of those nation's citizens.
Haiti could perfectly replicate our government and economic system and still be extremely poor because they aren't the epicenter of the world economy and they don't have their military and neocolonialism wrapping the globe. And they can't, America came to its power after WWII, the geopolitical equivalent of a mass extinction event. America was uniquely positioned to take the throne of hegemon, and at the expense of many post-colonial nations.
We're rich because we took their stuff. We don't just have a personal obligation to end poverty, we have a societal obligation to.
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The life boat analogy also leaves out the reasons why America has such a big boat and other nation's don't. We made our boat from their wood and paid for it by offering a few powerful people in other nations a spot on our boat. Nations don't exist in a vacuum and they aren't rich or poor because of the choices of those nation's citizens.
Haiti could perfectly replicate our government and economic system and still be extremely poor because they aren't the epicenter of the world economy and they don't have their military and neocolonialism wrapping the globe. And they can't, America came to its power after WWII, the geopolitical equivalent of a mass extinction event. America was uniquely positioned to take the throne of hegemon, and at the expense of many post-colonial nations.
We're rich because we took their stuff. We don't just have a personal obligation to end poverty, we have a societal obligation to.
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Tim
I am a former lifeguard and a very strong swimmer. I was trained that, before I attempt a rescue, I must first ASSESS THE SCENE. -Are there more dangers than I know I can handle? - If so, I am not to attempt the rescue. Period. But it-s in my character to push myself to my limits. I absolutely refuse to die while rescuing others, but I likewise refuse not to give it my all, and will never be the one making cowardly excuses! If it cost me a job, or a wife leaving me, or anything else, you could never stop me from making a rescue I know I can make. I-d be glad to be rid of them in that case. And that-s because that is how I-ve decided a person should be. And that is how I-ve decided to be. Not for any accolade or by the command of deities, but by my own fierce will. And that is also how I hope for others to be, not out of any duties or obligations, except the one that they owe to themselves.
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I am a former lifeguard and a very strong swimmer. I was trained that, before I attempt a rescue, I must first ASSESS THE SCENE. -Are there more dangers than I know I can handle? - If so, I am not to attempt the rescue. Period. But it-s in my character to push myself to my limits. I absolutely refuse to die while rescuing others, but I likewise refuse not to give it my all, and will never be the one making cowardly excuses! If it cost me a job, or a wife leaving me, or anything else, you could never stop me from making a rescue I know I can make. I-d be glad to be rid of them in that case. And that-s because that is how I-ve decided a person should be. And that is how I-ve decided to be. Not for any accolade or by the command of deities, but by my own fierce will. And that is also how I hope for others to be, not out of any duties or obligations, except the one that they owe to themselves.
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Chris
Human empathy attaches strongly to visible, nearby individuals, including animals -- but very poorly to unseen distant people and worse yet to statistics. So someone who would balk at donating $200 to, statistically speaking, save the life of some distant foreigner, might not think twice to ruin $200 worth of clothes rescuing a drowning kitten. As for charity potentially causing future problems, there is a particular type of charity that is quite the opposite: business loans in underdeveloped countries. Essentially, you are donating an income source, and if all goes right you've brought a family/community out of poverty, you get your money back, and can reinvest it into another income source.
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Human empathy attaches strongly to visible, nearby individuals, including animals -- but very poorly to unseen distant people and worse yet to statistics. So someone who would balk at donating $200 to, statistically speaking, save the life of some distant foreigner, might not think twice to ruin $200 worth of clothes rescuing a drowning kitten. As for charity potentially causing future problems, there is a particular type of charity that is quite the opposite: business loans in underdeveloped countries. Essentially, you are donating an income source, and if all goes right you've brought a family/community out of poverty, you get your money back, and can reinvest it into another income source.
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kimh
Am an African myself, born and raised, and i see a lot of poverty and hunger and children dying due to diseases and hunger but i honestly don't think it should be anyone's responsibility or obligation to help unless they are capable and willing to. Since the dawn of man there has been pain, suffering and death and always will be. You can't stop it, trying to help is just delaying the inevitable. Those who have a chance to live a good life let them do so without feeling guilt for the problems of others, its not your fault and you have just a few years and one lifetime to live. It won't matter in the end anyway.
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Am an African myself, born and raised, and i see a lot of poverty and hunger and children dying due to diseases and hunger but i honestly don't think it should be anyone's responsibility or obligation to help unless they are capable and willing to. Since the dawn of man there has been pain, suffering and death and always will be. You can't stop it, trying to help is just delaying the inevitable. Those who have a chance to live a good life let them do so without feeling guilt for the problems of others, its not your fault and you have just a few years and one lifetime to live. It won't matter in the end anyway.
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Norel
Giving your money will not solve the poverty problem.
Poverty is our way of describing the part of society that has been less successful financially. -
That is, the part that failed to create a mechanism that guarantees its basic needs or needs that are considered average or acceptable in a given society.
In Africa, the problem begins with the inability of countries to create a sufficiently prosperous economy to satisfy the most basic needs.
What needs to be done is to create more stable governments or to create more successful economies separately from the authorities.
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Giving your money will not solve the poverty problem.
Poverty is our way of describing the part of society that has been less successful financially. -
That is, the part that failed to create a mechanism that guarantees its basic needs or needs that are considered average or acceptable in a given society.
In Africa, the problem begins with the inability of countries to create a sufficiently prosperous economy to satisfy the most basic needs.
What needs to be done is to create more stable governments or to create more successful economies separately from the authorities.
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Sunil
The second analogy is inaccurate in another way. Rather than assuming the boat that needs to help the drowning people is a tiny one, it's more accurate to think of it as a massive cruise ship with plenty of room, and even (more than enough) resources to build multiple boats on deck. But instead of building them together and saving the drowning people with it, the cruise ship occupants are satisfied throwing a few splinters here and there in the hope/belief it is enough for survival.
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The second analogy is inaccurate in another way. Rather than assuming the boat that needs to help the drowning people is a tiny one, it's more accurate to think of it as a massive cruise ship with plenty of room, and even (more than enough) resources to build multiple boats on deck. But instead of building them together and saving the drowning people with it, the cruise ship occupants are satisfied throwing a few splinters here and there in the hope/belief it is enough for survival.
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grant
You ask if saying I care more about my child than your child insinuates that I would only save my child, and not another's in the pond example.
No. It means I would be willing to risk more to save my child than someone else's.
I would go into the pond to save my child even if there were several deadly animals in the pond.
I would not for most other children, as my family needs me Alive.
It is absolutely okay to discriminate based on how close you are to someone.
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You ask if saying I care more about my child than your child insinuates that I would only save my child, and not another's in the pond example.
No. It means I would be willing to risk more to save my child than someone else's.
I would go into the pond to save my child even if there were several deadly animals in the pond.
I would not for most other children, as my family needs me Alive.
It is absolutely okay to discriminate based on how close you are to someone.
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martin
Simply sending money or food to people is not going to solve the problem of poverty.
-Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. -
If you send people food, you give them incentive to do nothing and just wait for more. As far as I know, this is a serious problem in some poor countries.
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Simply sending money or food to people is not going to solve the problem of poverty.
-Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. -
If you send people food, you give them incentive to do nothing and just wait for more. As far as I know, this is a serious problem in some poor countries.
reply
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