On food and immigration
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Date: 2025-06-20
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Comments and reviews: 20
bengoacher4455
The other angle to take from this is asking the question why are farmers using illegal labour knowing that they can be charged under human trafficking laws which carry much harder penalties than simply being deported back over the border
The answer is because supermarkets, and food consumers, demand that food remains cheap and affordable. Which is fair enough, we all want healthy fresh fruit and vegetables to be readily available and cheap to buy all year round. But that means the margins on fresh vegetables is razer thin. If an aubourgine (Egg plant) is $1 in the store, there isn't much left over to pay the person harvesting the plant once you factor in the supermarket's profits, the distribution costs, the storage and shelf space and operations of the supermarket, then you have the cost of growing the plant the 364 days a year where you aren't harvesting it. you may only be able to pay a few cents per plant before the whole operation makes you the farmer no money whatsoever, and then you might as well pack up and go work in Mcdonalds rather than running a farm. So the farmer has to pay the illegally low salaries and the only people desperate enough to accept the illegally low salaries are the illegal workers.
Rounding up this years influx of workers and deporting them does not solve the issue. It just makes fruit and veg extortionately expensive in the short term, while crops rot in the fields and illegal immigrants return next year anyway. The solution isn't to make it easier for illegal workers to become legal workers because that doesn't solve the issue anyway, legal workers have the full weight of US employment law behind them and so it's not profitable to employ legal workers. Putting up a big wall and turning the southern border into a DMZ doesn't solve the problem either because now there are fewer illegal workers to harvest the crops so the crops rot in fields, see the first scentence of this paragraph. Neither is it feasible for the farmers to unionise and take on the supermarkets and demand to be paid more for their fruit and veg, because then americans in the supermarket will decide to eat either ultra processed food with no nutritional value, or imported fruit and veg from countries that can produce fruit and veg at the price demanded by the US consumer (tarrifs might make sense here, but then you have inflation and everyone hates that.
There is a solution that meets all these challenges, and reduces the use of fertilizer, reduces the use of unsustainable irrigation, reduces the use of pesticides and increases the yield of crops, increases the profits for farmers, reduces the price in the store, reduces the demand for labour and allows all individuals involved to be skilled and paid a higher than minimum wage salary. It's called intensive farming. Greenhouses, pumped full of CO2, with artificial smart lighting to extend the growing period, temperature controlled, with direct to root irrigation that prevents evaporation and reduces water use. The Netherlands and Spain utilize this system very well, with the Netherlands producing more agricultural produce than the UK or Poland despite being a fraction of the size, and most of this comes from a very small area. If it was expanded across an area the size of the Californian central valley, there would be so much fruit and veg produced that it would actually crash international fruit and veg markets and would probably not be a good idea to implement. But if a small number of farms could produce all out fruit and veg needs in a professional and high tech manner, then other farms can be used for housing, or recreation, nature conservation, energy production (solar and wind farms) etc etc. There wouldn't be a demand for massive amounts of low skilled labour and you remove the pull factors making the decision to illegally enter and work in the USA a valid option. The reason this doesn't happen is that farmers lack the funding necessary to invest in making the change over to intensive farms, and a lot of tenant farmers lack the right to construct the infrastructure needed anyway, while landlords like Bill Gates are uninterested in increasing crop yields, they are simply land banking.
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The other angle to take from this is asking the question why are farmers using illegal labour knowing that they can be charged under human trafficking laws which carry much harder penalties than simply being deported back over the border
The answer is because supermarkets, and food consumers, demand that food remains cheap and affordable. Which is fair enough, we all want healthy fresh fruit and vegetables to be readily available and cheap to buy all year round. But that means the margins on fresh vegetables is razer thin. If an aubourgine (Egg plant) is $1 in the store, there isn't much left over to pay the person harvesting the plant once you factor in the supermarket's profits, the distribution costs, the storage and shelf space and operations of the supermarket, then you have the cost of growing the plant the 364 days a year where you aren't harvesting it. you may only be able to pay a few cents per plant before the whole operation makes you the farmer no money whatsoever, and then you might as well pack up and go work in Mcdonalds rather than running a farm. So the farmer has to pay the illegally low salaries and the only people desperate enough to accept the illegally low salaries are the illegal workers.
Rounding up this years influx of workers and deporting them does not solve the issue. It just makes fruit and veg extortionately expensive in the short term, while crops rot in the fields and illegal immigrants return next year anyway. The solution isn't to make it easier for illegal workers to become legal workers because that doesn't solve the issue anyway, legal workers have the full weight of US employment law behind them and so it's not profitable to employ legal workers. Putting up a big wall and turning the southern border into a DMZ doesn't solve the problem either because now there are fewer illegal workers to harvest the crops so the crops rot in fields, see the first scentence of this paragraph. Neither is it feasible for the farmers to unionise and take on the supermarkets and demand to be paid more for their fruit and veg, because then americans in the supermarket will decide to eat either ultra processed food with no nutritional value, or imported fruit and veg from countries that can produce fruit and veg at the price demanded by the US consumer (tarrifs might make sense here, but then you have inflation and everyone hates that.
There is a solution that meets all these challenges, and reduces the use of fertilizer, reduces the use of unsustainable irrigation, reduces the use of pesticides and increases the yield of crops, increases the profits for farmers, reduces the price in the store, reduces the demand for labour and allows all individuals involved to be skilled and paid a higher than minimum wage salary. It's called intensive farming. Greenhouses, pumped full of CO2, with artificial smart lighting to extend the growing period, temperature controlled, with direct to root irrigation that prevents evaporation and reduces water use. The Netherlands and Spain utilize this system very well, with the Netherlands producing more agricultural produce than the UK or Poland despite being a fraction of the size, and most of this comes from a very small area. If it was expanded across an area the size of the Californian central valley, there would be so much fruit and veg produced that it would actually crash international fruit and veg markets and would probably not be a good idea to implement. But if a small number of farms could produce all out fruit and veg needs in a professional and high tech manner, then other farms can be used for housing, or recreation, nature conservation, energy production (solar and wind farms) etc etc. There wouldn't be a demand for massive amounts of low skilled labour and you remove the pull factors making the decision to illegally enter and work in the USA a valid option. The reason this doesn't happen is that farmers lack the funding necessary to invest in making the change over to intensive farms, and a lot of tenant farmers lack the right to construct the infrastructure needed anyway, while landlords like Bill Gates are uninterested in increasing crop yields, they are simply land banking.
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twillongenbone4057
Hmmm. No. I completely understand where you're coming from, and I respectfully disagree not because I'm pro-Trump or afraid of my culture changing, whatever that means. My objection is more fundamental: I reject the premise that importing and exporting cheap labor often under exploitative conditions is the only solution to our economic or demographic challenges.
It's the same reason I oppose the globalist system that creates billionaires off the backs of Asian children working in sweatshops making iPhones. Immigrants aren't the problem, but in this system, they serve as a band-aid that allows deeper structural problems to persist. The system you're defending survives by creating victims and often, immigrants become those victims.
Yes, food prices might go up without cheap migrant labor. So be it. If that accelerates a shift toward deregulation, decentralization, and regenerative agriculture, I welcome it. Farming doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive. That’s a narrative crafted by government mismanagement and corporate welfare. We've let monopolies off the hook for decades and now they’ve convinced us we can’t survive without their model.
As for the demographic crisis and declining birth rates, I’d argue it's the direct result of a heavy-handed federal government and an economic system that has made raising children harder, not easier. Urbanization, economic instability, and unsustainable agricultural models have all contributed to fewer people choosing to have families. And now we’re trying to fix that with imported labor instead of fixing the core issues.
Finally, I think it’s important to recognize that this immigration crisis was not inevitable. It’s been building for decades, worsened by the Trump administration's reactionary policies and then by Biden’s overcorrection. Both parties are culpable. Without Biden's choices, we wouldn't be talking about mass deportation.
So where does that leave us I say: stop kicking the can. We don’t need a shadow caste of exploited labor to prop up a broken system. We need real reform starting with revitalizing rural communities, building parallel economies, removing barriers to farming and entrepreneurship, and creating a fair, efficient immigration system.
I wish we could discuss this face-to-face, because there's a lot to unpack. But I hope this comment has conveyed a logically consistent alternative perspective. Thanks for the work you’re doing, and please keep asking the tough questions. Even though we disagree, we’ll need all kinds of thoughtful voices at the table to fix what’s broken.
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Hmmm. No. I completely understand where you're coming from, and I respectfully disagree not because I'm pro-Trump or afraid of my culture changing, whatever that means. My objection is more fundamental: I reject the premise that importing and exporting cheap labor often under exploitative conditions is the only solution to our economic or demographic challenges.
It's the same reason I oppose the globalist system that creates billionaires off the backs of Asian children working in sweatshops making iPhones. Immigrants aren't the problem, but in this system, they serve as a band-aid that allows deeper structural problems to persist. The system you're defending survives by creating victims and often, immigrants become those victims.
Yes, food prices might go up without cheap migrant labor. So be it. If that accelerates a shift toward deregulation, decentralization, and regenerative agriculture, I welcome it. Farming doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive. That’s a narrative crafted by government mismanagement and corporate welfare. We've let monopolies off the hook for decades and now they’ve convinced us we can’t survive without their model.
As for the demographic crisis and declining birth rates, I’d argue it's the direct result of a heavy-handed federal government and an economic system that has made raising children harder, not easier. Urbanization, economic instability, and unsustainable agricultural models have all contributed to fewer people choosing to have families. And now we’re trying to fix that with imported labor instead of fixing the core issues.
Finally, I think it’s important to recognize that this immigration crisis was not inevitable. It’s been building for decades, worsened by the Trump administration's reactionary policies and then by Biden’s overcorrection. Both parties are culpable. Without Biden's choices, we wouldn't be talking about mass deportation.
So where does that leave us I say: stop kicking the can. We don’t need a shadow caste of exploited labor to prop up a broken system. We need real reform starting with revitalizing rural communities, building parallel economies, removing barriers to farming and entrepreneurship, and creating a fair, efficient immigration system.
I wish we could discuss this face-to-face, because there's a lot to unpack. But I hope this comment has conveyed a logically consistent alternative perspective. Thanks for the work you’re doing, and please keep asking the tough questions. Even though we disagree, we’ll need all kinds of thoughtful voices at the table to fix what’s broken.
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grandmothergoose
From where I'm sitting, on the other side of the world, on the outside looking in where the trees aren't blocking my view of the forest, it's looking very much like MAGA has become the USA's version of the 1930's Nazi Party, but based on class rather than race. If you're not rich, you're worthless except as a slave. The scary part is, you could become one. Yeah, slavery is illegal. except that the USA has a 13th Amendment loophole: criminals. If you're imprisoned, you can be forced into labour, aka slavery. Speak out against Trump, right now if you're not a US citizen you can be detained and deported for what you say or write without due process, even if you have a valid visa. Think that can't happen Think again because, that has already happened. As a citizen, you could be grabbed by ICE and deported to a foreign prison without due process, so better make sure you always have your valid ID on you. Speak out against Trump, you could be arrested for treason, sent to prison, to then become a slave, to work for the rich elite. that hasn't happened yet and of course that bit is the extreme end of a long road called fascism, but the USA has already started marching down that road and the legal loopholes are already there just waiting to be exploited. The whole world is watching the USA step by step, one law being ignored and another being changed one after another, gradually becoming the world's next authoritarian regime and many of us are wondering if it will stop before or after the USA attempts to take over other countries, commit genocide, and start WW3.
And for the record, I don't hate Trump, I think he's a gullible bumbling idiot, but he means nothing to me so I have no emotional stake in any of this. And he's not the one I worry about so much as the people behind him, the ones that put him where he is, the ones that advise him, the ones that feed him the information, misinformation, and disinformation that he uses to make his decisions. They're the real root of the problem. Give Trump a completely different set of people to get his information from and he'll flip on a dime, because he really only cares about his money, his fame, and his power, and will say and do anything to get and keep it. Convince him that turning the USA into a socialist communist nation is what will make him the most wealthy, most loved, and most powerful person on the planet, that's what he'll do. That's why he emulates and befriends dictators; he just wants what they have.
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From where I'm sitting, on the other side of the world, on the outside looking in where the trees aren't blocking my view of the forest, it's looking very much like MAGA has become the USA's version of the 1930's Nazi Party, but based on class rather than race. If you're not rich, you're worthless except as a slave. The scary part is, you could become one. Yeah, slavery is illegal. except that the USA has a 13th Amendment loophole: criminals. If you're imprisoned, you can be forced into labour, aka slavery. Speak out against Trump, right now if you're not a US citizen you can be detained and deported for what you say or write without due process, even if you have a valid visa. Think that can't happen Think again because, that has already happened. As a citizen, you could be grabbed by ICE and deported to a foreign prison without due process, so better make sure you always have your valid ID on you. Speak out against Trump, you could be arrested for treason, sent to prison, to then become a slave, to work for the rich elite. that hasn't happened yet and of course that bit is the extreme end of a long road called fascism, but the USA has already started marching down that road and the legal loopholes are already there just waiting to be exploited. The whole world is watching the USA step by step, one law being ignored and another being changed one after another, gradually becoming the world's next authoritarian regime and many of us are wondering if it will stop before or after the USA attempts to take over other countries, commit genocide, and start WW3.
And for the record, I don't hate Trump, I think he's a gullible bumbling idiot, but he means nothing to me so I have no emotional stake in any of this. And he's not the one I worry about so much as the people behind him, the ones that put him where he is, the ones that advise him, the ones that feed him the information, misinformation, and disinformation that he uses to make his decisions. They're the real root of the problem. Give Trump a completely different set of people to get his information from and he'll flip on a dime, because he really only cares about his money, his fame, and his power, and will say and do anything to get and keep it. Convince him that turning the USA into a socialist communist nation is what will make him the most wealthy, most loved, and most powerful person on the planet, that's what he'll do. That's why he emulates and befriends dictators; he just wants what they have.
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survivinglife262
I listened to your whole video 4 times. Responsibility is not negated by structural hardships. Pin this.
Argument: spoken in moral gravity and socio-historical empathy.
- conflation of motivation with justification, a classic fallacy in moral reasoning.
- psychological narrative of necessity: that dire conditions in Mexico (cartels, poverty, lack of opportunity) push a desperate subject into the arms of illegal migration. appeal to tragedy fallacy.
- sentimentalist ethics, where moral legitimacy arises from emotion, suffering, or fear, rather than principle.
- migratory, tough, laborious, best-eco jobs for people in poverty from northern mexico. you see people going under the table, working as the under-class, relatively living a better life, therefore the justification to follow that norm and take up that illegal life-changing decision
- may understand the psychological state of the subjectself-preservation, fear, ambitionbut this does not convert the illegal act into an ethical one.
- Structural critique (i. e, the American agricultural economy is exploitative) does NOT negate individual moral agency.
- Classic Marxian-moral fallacy: that structure determines action to the extent that agency disappears. Yet all moral theoryKantian, Aristotelian, existentialistinsists that humans, especially adults, retain the power of reflection and choice, even within oppressive systems.
- To fully dissolve the agency of the illegal migrant into systemic determinism is to transform moral philosophy into fatalistic sociology.
- Argument asserts that the desirability of an outcome (cheap food) legitimizes the illegality of the means: Without illegal labor, food would be expensive.
- If this logic were extended, we could justify sweatshops, organ trafficking, and child laborbecause they too lower costs. also a form of moral utilitarianism with selective application
- Anecdotal Moralism, The Lesser Evil Fallacy, One-sided causal attribution and so many more genuine mistakes in this line of argument.
- If illegal action is valid because it's appealing, then why obey any law at all Nowhere in the argument is there any attention to the erosion of legal coherence.
one of the deepest flaws: the complete erasure of personal freedom and responsibility under the excuse of circumstance.
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I listened to your whole video 4 times. Responsibility is not negated by structural hardships. Pin this.
Argument: spoken in moral gravity and socio-historical empathy.
- conflation of motivation with justification, a classic fallacy in moral reasoning.
- psychological narrative of necessity: that dire conditions in Mexico (cartels, poverty, lack of opportunity) push a desperate subject into the arms of illegal migration. appeal to tragedy fallacy.
- sentimentalist ethics, where moral legitimacy arises from emotion, suffering, or fear, rather than principle.
- migratory, tough, laborious, best-eco jobs for people in poverty from northern mexico. you see people going under the table, working as the under-class, relatively living a better life, therefore the justification to follow that norm and take up that illegal life-changing decision
- may understand the psychological state of the subjectself-preservation, fear, ambitionbut this does not convert the illegal act into an ethical one.
- Structural critique (i. e, the American agricultural economy is exploitative) does NOT negate individual moral agency.
- Classic Marxian-moral fallacy: that structure determines action to the extent that agency disappears. Yet all moral theoryKantian, Aristotelian, existentialistinsists that humans, especially adults, retain the power of reflection and choice, even within oppressive systems.
- To fully dissolve the agency of the illegal migrant into systemic determinism is to transform moral philosophy into fatalistic sociology.
- Argument asserts that the desirability of an outcome (cheap food) legitimizes the illegality of the means: Without illegal labor, food would be expensive.
- If this logic were extended, we could justify sweatshops, organ trafficking, and child laborbecause they too lower costs. also a form of moral utilitarianism with selective application
- Anecdotal Moralism, The Lesser Evil Fallacy, One-sided causal attribution and so many more genuine mistakes in this line of argument.
- If illegal action is valid because it's appealing, then why obey any law at all Nowhere in the argument is there any attention to the erosion of legal coherence.
one of the deepest flaws: the complete erasure of personal freedom and responsibility under the excuse of circumstance.
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ioioire4684
wrt aging population, if immigration birthrate follows a similar pattern to longer-standing americans by generations 2 or 3, as it does witu immigrants to europe, and we ALWAYS need a larger youth population than the old (apparently, more on that in a bit) then when does it stop when does the house of cards fall when theres simply not enough people to move to support the oldies getting older has to happen eventually if you dont fix longer-standing-citizen birthdates if youre chaning nothing else about the economy (again more on that shortly, and i understand the sentiment of well why accept a problem now when we COULD have it later i get that but, there are other solutions and it does still render the its just how it has to he part of the argument invalid cuz if its not a cure but rather a stopgap then that fixes nothing. so what ARE the alternatives. Well, theres an awful lot of wealth floating around, an awful lot. America is the wealthiest country and this wealth is INCREASINGLY monopolised and sitting there either idle or accruing interest in unproductive business. To actually fix the systemic problem of there not being enough money around to support old people you NEED that more money, you dont kick the can down the road and create more old peoppe to deal with later. And sure, politicallt difficult, but so is all of this. And food prices subsidies, again from this appropriated wealth from the 1% because what else, you let these calloused back pained arthritis broken 3rd worlders be citizens and THEN what, they either get other jobs where they have the paperwork to now NOT have to work under a farmer who exploits their legal status, or they unionise, now witu legal union protection and the ability to create a fuss without being deported. You would hope they would unionise. And they would demand a wage more equivalent to their work, and vegeatable prices would STILL go up. If these vegetables are too cheap to not work without l i t e r a l l y back breaking, toxin exposing, slavery then MAYBE WE HAVE TO PAY MORE. simple fact. OR, subsidies. from that wealth we took from the richest people on earth living in america, food security is important afterall. if the system cant work without without the exploitation of the poor maybe we need a different system.
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wrt aging population, if immigration birthrate follows a similar pattern to longer-standing americans by generations 2 or 3, as it does witu immigrants to europe, and we ALWAYS need a larger youth population than the old (apparently, more on that in a bit) then when does it stop when does the house of cards fall when theres simply not enough people to move to support the oldies getting older has to happen eventually if you dont fix longer-standing-citizen birthdates if youre chaning nothing else about the economy (again more on that shortly, and i understand the sentiment of well why accept a problem now when we COULD have it later i get that but, there are other solutions and it does still render the its just how it has to he part of the argument invalid cuz if its not a cure but rather a stopgap then that fixes nothing. so what ARE the alternatives. Well, theres an awful lot of wealth floating around, an awful lot. America is the wealthiest country and this wealth is INCREASINGLY monopolised and sitting there either idle or accruing interest in unproductive business. To actually fix the systemic problem of there not being enough money around to support old people you NEED that more money, you dont kick the can down the road and create more old peoppe to deal with later. And sure, politicallt difficult, but so is all of this. And food prices subsidies, again from this appropriated wealth from the 1% because what else, you let these calloused back pained arthritis broken 3rd worlders be citizens and THEN what, they either get other jobs where they have the paperwork to now NOT have to work under a farmer who exploits their legal status, or they unionise, now witu legal union protection and the ability to create a fuss without being deported. You would hope they would unionise. And they would demand a wage more equivalent to their work, and vegeatable prices would STILL go up. If these vegetables are too cheap to not work without l i t e r a l l y back breaking, toxin exposing, slavery then MAYBE WE HAVE TO PAY MORE. simple fact. OR, subsidies. from that wealth we took from the richest people on earth living in america, food security is important afterall. if the system cant work without without the exploitation of the poor maybe we need a different system.
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jackgude3969
I really don't want to distract from the main point of the video but all the stuff he said at 12: 00 applies to basically the entire working class. Every job I've ever had is at will, there's no contracts, you can be dismissed without cause. Every capitalist always reneges on every deal. Every fast food worker, and mechanic/technician, and janitor (all jobs I've had) works way harder than anyone who's allowed to sit down sometimes at work, and all of those jobs are way more necessary to our society. As proof, remember the whole essential workers thing We literally classified what jobs are essential to society already, and it wasn't HR. I've had to work in unsafe conditions because I'll be fired if I don't. I've had to sacrifice my health doing repetitive manual labor. I literally started working on a farm at like 13 I think, maybe 12. (They ship a bunch of kids out to remote cornfields to manually pull the tassels off of every corn plant in the field, it's something to do with pollination. It's like the only human labor that goes into corn farming and since they can't get a bunch of immigrants to do it, the standard is children) I don't actually have the protection of the law, I can't afford a lawyer, I can't even afford to not work for a week. I've had cops harass me for extended periods of time and I'm a straight cis white man in the midwest. I have no recourse either. I've had neighbors threaten me and vandalize my car. The cops aren't there to help me either. I pay taxes for services that I can't access. I used to have to pay for insurance that I can't afford to ever use. I'm never going to be able to retire.
To be clear my point isn't My life is bad so everyone's should be. My point is that you should go re-watch Us, that's the main thing I wanna get across. Also, the rot in this backwater hellhole goes down to the marrow. It's in ya bones.
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I really don't want to distract from the main point of the video but all the stuff he said at 12: 00 applies to basically the entire working class. Every job I've ever had is at will, there's no contracts, you can be dismissed without cause. Every capitalist always reneges on every deal. Every fast food worker, and mechanic/technician, and janitor (all jobs I've had) works way harder than anyone who's allowed to sit down sometimes at work, and all of those jobs are way more necessary to our society. As proof, remember the whole essential workers thing We literally classified what jobs are essential to society already, and it wasn't HR. I've had to work in unsafe conditions because I'll be fired if I don't. I've had to sacrifice my health doing repetitive manual labor. I literally started working on a farm at like 13 I think, maybe 12. (They ship a bunch of kids out to remote cornfields to manually pull the tassels off of every corn plant in the field, it's something to do with pollination. It's like the only human labor that goes into corn farming and since they can't get a bunch of immigrants to do it, the standard is children) I don't actually have the protection of the law, I can't afford a lawyer, I can't even afford to not work for a week. I've had cops harass me for extended periods of time and I'm a straight cis white man in the midwest. I have no recourse either. I've had neighbors threaten me and vandalize my car. The cops aren't there to help me either. I pay taxes for services that I can't access. I used to have to pay for insurance that I can't afford to ever use. I'm never going to be able to retire.
To be clear my point isn't My life is bad so everyone's should be. My point is that you should go re-watch Us, that's the main thing I wanna get across. Also, the rot in this backwater hellhole goes down to the marrow. It's in ya bones.
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MarioFsx
I will write this comment from another perspective as a farmer from an European country facing similar issues. This problem isn't one sided and doesn't exist in isolation. People just don't want to work in hard labour. People will chose an easier job with minimal skill requirements with less pay and benefits any day. And the fact is someone has to do this job and if you don't want to pay 4x for the same groceries in your local supermarket the pay has to be analogous. Not minimum wage, slightly above average, but not double or triple minimum. Even with those conditions people still don't want to do the work. Many farming businesses will hire from 3rd world countries LEGALLY, giving the salary described. However, the most common thing these workers do is exploit this legal hiring process which is easy due to high demand and go work illegaly in a less paying, easier, jobs. It's very easy to say what you and everyone is saying when you are privileged, but think for yourself, how many people, friends, do you know that work in seasonal agricultural jobs. You are stating the problem which is easy to do but you're not giving actual solutions. I believe due to these bad actors that exploit the system, chose to exploit the freedom of movement in Europe and legal hiring processes, some ill intended business also chose to follow the illegal route, which by no means I'm suggesting is right.
My closing argument is, if local people chose to do these jobs as they choose to work as cashiers at McDonald's for example, this problem wouldn't exist. But this is an universal issue. The majority of the population want to get useless degrees. People that choose blue collar work are the minority. Everyone has a choice and freedom to do what they want, but these are the consequences of our actions. You may not like it and complain, but that doesn't solve the problem.
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I will write this comment from another perspective as a farmer from an European country facing similar issues. This problem isn't one sided and doesn't exist in isolation. People just don't want to work in hard labour. People will chose an easier job with minimal skill requirements with less pay and benefits any day. And the fact is someone has to do this job and if you don't want to pay 4x for the same groceries in your local supermarket the pay has to be analogous. Not minimum wage, slightly above average, but not double or triple minimum. Even with those conditions people still don't want to do the work. Many farming businesses will hire from 3rd world countries LEGALLY, giving the salary described. However, the most common thing these workers do is exploit this legal hiring process which is easy due to high demand and go work illegaly in a less paying, easier, jobs. It's very easy to say what you and everyone is saying when you are privileged, but think for yourself, how many people, friends, do you know that work in seasonal agricultural jobs. You are stating the problem which is easy to do but you're not giving actual solutions. I believe due to these bad actors that exploit the system, chose to exploit the freedom of movement in Europe and legal hiring processes, some ill intended business also chose to follow the illegal route, which by no means I'm suggesting is right.
My closing argument is, if local people chose to do these jobs as they choose to work as cashiers at McDonald's for example, this problem wouldn't exist. But this is an universal issue. The majority of the population want to get useless degrees. People that choose blue collar work are the minority. Everyone has a choice and freedom to do what they want, but these are the consequences of our actions. You may not like it and complain, but that doesn't solve the problem.
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mikewilliams6025
Using the corrupt Biden Era stats isn't a good first starting point. I'm also confused where you think people are for deportations and friends of employers of illegal immigrants. 'Employers' of slave laborers heads should be deported and their bodies. They hate humanity and the USA. They are traitors. As someone who lived in Mexico for 20 years, your take on this situation is completely made up. Mexicans illegally living in the US cannot get deported to Sudan, nor is that an economical option. It's a fantasy. Your fantasy. Nor are they distant from their families. They all have smartphones. Further into this video you have some crazy theories about how mothers being pulled from their children on the street is ICE or gang violence What country do you think this is This isn't Brazil or Colombia. You are chicken littling all over this video. More fantasies. Even if gangs did this in the US, how would your reaction be any different Would you run after the van Then you compare having a driver's license revoked from real-time suspension to what's going on with temporary protected status. Another false equivalency. You forgot the first word of that status: temporary. I can't listen to any more. Your assessment of reality is uninformed, emotionally-unstable, and logically flawed.
I have not participated in the farm labor pool willingly. I don't support the system. Now that it's being dismantled, I consider it good. If Trump was balking on farmers now, that's his foolish move. It comes from the same lobbying that you were criticizing at the beginning. So which is it, do you support slavery or are you against it You have made it clear in this video that you are pro-slavery. I'm not.
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Using the corrupt Biden Era stats isn't a good first starting point. I'm also confused where you think people are for deportations and friends of employers of illegal immigrants. 'Employers' of slave laborers heads should be deported and their bodies. They hate humanity and the USA. They are traitors. As someone who lived in Mexico for 20 years, your take on this situation is completely made up. Mexicans illegally living in the US cannot get deported to Sudan, nor is that an economical option. It's a fantasy. Your fantasy. Nor are they distant from their families. They all have smartphones. Further into this video you have some crazy theories about how mothers being pulled from their children on the street is ICE or gang violence What country do you think this is This isn't Brazil or Colombia. You are chicken littling all over this video. More fantasies. Even if gangs did this in the US, how would your reaction be any different Would you run after the van Then you compare having a driver's license revoked from real-time suspension to what's going on with temporary protected status. Another false equivalency. You forgot the first word of that status: temporary. I can't listen to any more. Your assessment of reality is uninformed, emotionally-unstable, and logically flawed.
I have not participated in the farm labor pool willingly. I don't support the system. Now that it's being dismantled, I consider it good. If Trump was balking on farmers now, that's his foolish move. It comes from the same lobbying that you were criticizing at the beginning. So which is it, do you support slavery or are you against it You have made it clear in this video that you are pro-slavery. I'm not.
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devandestudios128
Americans don't want those jobs, because the farmers and the processing plants Do Not pay enough and don't offer any real benefits to make it worth it to us to do those jobs. We aren't sending money to our families in Mexico or in any other country. We need better pay to afford our utilities, mortgages, rent, food, insurance for car and home (scam, phone bill, car payment if you have one, etc. Pay Better and offer good benefits, and Americans might start wanting those jobs again, but I highly doubt it. And that's NEVER going to happen anyway, because then it would take money out of the rich people's pockets and they don't allow that to happen, EVER. But it is DEFINITELY the employer that should bear the brunt of the blame for illegal (though that is impossible on stolen land) immigrants in the first place, well that and certain federal policies put in place specifically to create a wider labor pool, (Edited to add, to help the Farmers, not The Laborers. The U. S. DOES NOT give a damn about The Laborers. Want proof, fed min wage is at a staggering 7. 25$ an hour. While the cost of living, or the cumulative cost of goods has increased by 36. 41%, fed min wage HAS NOT risen to meet the need of the increased cost of living. But the problem with that, is that the employer does not eat the pay increase, rather they pass those costs on to the consumer, (us the laborers) which contributes to the CPI (Consumer Price Index) thereby the cost of living.
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Americans don't want those jobs, because the farmers and the processing plants Do Not pay enough and don't offer any real benefits to make it worth it to us to do those jobs. We aren't sending money to our families in Mexico or in any other country. We need better pay to afford our utilities, mortgages, rent, food, insurance for car and home (scam, phone bill, car payment if you have one, etc. Pay Better and offer good benefits, and Americans might start wanting those jobs again, but I highly doubt it. And that's NEVER going to happen anyway, because then it would take money out of the rich people's pockets and they don't allow that to happen, EVER. But it is DEFINITELY the employer that should bear the brunt of the blame for illegal (though that is impossible on stolen land) immigrants in the first place, well that and certain federal policies put in place specifically to create a wider labor pool, (Edited to add, to help the Farmers, not The Laborers. The U. S. DOES NOT give a damn about The Laborers. Want proof, fed min wage is at a staggering 7. 25$ an hour. While the cost of living, or the cumulative cost of goods has increased by 36. 41%, fed min wage HAS NOT risen to meet the need of the increased cost of living. But the problem with that, is that the employer does not eat the pay increase, rather they pass those costs on to the consumer, (us the laborers) which contributes to the CPI (Consumer Price Index) thereby the cost of living.
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My_Legs_Are_OK
Let me first say - I agree 100% on the criticisms to the methods. Plain clothes officers, refusing to id themselves, are just begging for the people to use self defense. When there is no way to know who these people are and why they are grabbing you, well. There's something to consider there. Unrealistic quotas are bs as well.
However, I don't get the suggested compromise. Are you advocating for legalizing the immigrants In that case they'd have to get minimum wage, making your salad 4x expensive.
Are you saying they should be paid below minimum wage How is that going to look Are you saying you're fine with near-slave labor to keep the salad cost down I git the impression that you were criticizing the employers for incentivizing illegal immigration by doing essentially that.
Finally, why lock the border down later and not right now If anything, the demand for cheap labor is only going to increase. There will never be a right moment to do it. So it should be done while there is appetite for that.
So, in my opinion, you can't have it both ways. Either you're legalizing below-minimum-wage, quasi-slave labor (keeping the status quo is the same btw, or you get to pay for expensive food. If there was a solution, it hasn't been presented in this video.
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Let me first say - I agree 100% on the criticisms to the methods. Plain clothes officers, refusing to id themselves, are just begging for the people to use self defense. When there is no way to know who these people are and why they are grabbing you, well. There's something to consider there. Unrealistic quotas are bs as well.
However, I don't get the suggested compromise. Are you advocating for legalizing the immigrants In that case they'd have to get minimum wage, making your salad 4x expensive.
Are you saying they should be paid below minimum wage How is that going to look Are you saying you're fine with near-slave labor to keep the salad cost down I git the impression that you were criticizing the employers for incentivizing illegal immigration by doing essentially that.
Finally, why lock the border down later and not right now If anything, the demand for cheap labor is only going to increase. There will never be a right moment to do it. So it should be done while there is appetite for that.
So, in my opinion, you can't have it both ways. Either you're legalizing below-minimum-wage, quasi-slave labor (keeping the status quo is the same btw, or you get to pay for expensive food. If there was a solution, it hasn't been presented in this video.
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robwyyi
Is it entirely Americas doing that it’s dependent on migrant labor or generationally America has been an outlet for economical needs of many from Latin America. Farms are doing their part to lower cheap labor. Dairy farms lowering labor needs by automation, Almond farms long ago shaking tree to harvest what was once hand picked, blueberries using plastic fingers and air pressure to pick them. The innovation is there but sometimes cheap labor delays the implementation of it. Adam take look at cranberries and how long it took to apply flooding cranberries fields to harvest cranberries. All because of cheap labor from the North. North yes. At one time New England had readily available cheap labor coming from French Canada. Lot to unpack there with illegal from the north. At one time, pre Kennedy, they gave amnesty to immigrants from the north. Hence why many illegals to seek amnesty and citizenship went up to Canada and back. The amnesty then was oriented for French Canadian but many illegals use the loophole to get legal. This only shows migration is story of all humanity it’s happening now and will happen long as humans exist. Migration through out space anyone.
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Is it entirely Americas doing that it’s dependent on migrant labor or generationally America has been an outlet for economical needs of many from Latin America. Farms are doing their part to lower cheap labor. Dairy farms lowering labor needs by automation, Almond farms long ago shaking tree to harvest what was once hand picked, blueberries using plastic fingers and air pressure to pick them. The innovation is there but sometimes cheap labor delays the implementation of it. Adam take look at cranberries and how long it took to apply flooding cranberries fields to harvest cranberries. All because of cheap labor from the North. North yes. At one time New England had readily available cheap labor coming from French Canada. Lot to unpack there with illegal from the north. At one time, pre Kennedy, they gave amnesty to immigrants from the north. Hence why many illegals to seek amnesty and citizenship went up to Canada and back. The amnesty then was oriented for French Canadian but many illegals use the loophole to get legal. This only shows migration is story of all humanity it’s happening now and will happen long as humans exist. Migration through out space anyone.
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robwyyi
Is it entirely Americas doing that it’s dependent on migrant labor or generationally America has been an outlet for economical needs of many from Latin America. Farms are doing their part to lower cheap labor. Dairy farms lowering labor needs by automation, Almond farms long ago shaking tree to harvest what was once hand picked, blueberries using plastic fingers and air pressure to pick them. The innovation is there but sometimes cheap labor delays the implementation of it. Adam take look at cranberries and how long it took to apply flooding cranberries fields to harvest cranberries. All because of cheap labor from the North. North yes. At one time New England had readily available cheap labor coming from French Canada. Lot to unpack there with illegal from the north. At one time, pre Kennedy, they gave amnesty to immigrants from the north. Hence why many illegals to seek amnesty and citizenship went up to Canada and back. The amnesty then was oriented for French Canadian but many illegals use the loophole to get legal. This only shows migration is story of all humanity it’s happening now and will happen long as humans exist. Migration through out space anyone.
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Is it entirely Americas doing that it’s dependent on migrant labor or generationally America has been an outlet for economical needs of many from Latin America. Farms are doing their part to lower cheap labor. Dairy farms lowering labor needs by automation, Almond farms long ago shaking tree to harvest what was once hand picked, blueberries using plastic fingers and air pressure to pick them. The innovation is there but sometimes cheap labor delays the implementation of it. Adam take look at cranberries and how long it took to apply flooding cranberries fields to harvest cranberries. All because of cheap labor from the North. North yes. At one time New England had readily available cheap labor coming from French Canada. Lot to unpack there with illegal from the north. At one time, pre Kennedy, they gave amnesty to immigrants from the north. Hence why many illegals to seek amnesty and citizenship went up to Canada and back. The amnesty then was oriented for French Canadian but many illegals use the loophole to get legal. This only shows migration is story of all humanity it’s happening now and will happen long as humans exist. Migration through out space anyone.
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The21Quest
What you don't seem to realize is that going after the employers, while fair, hurts more immigrants from Mexico. If they stop enticing them up here, congratulations. You've succeeded in taking jobs and lifestyle improvements away from those would-be migrants. Whether we stop hiring them and therefore close the door in their face or we round them up and deport them, you're still denying them access to the US. What's more, the Mexican and South American immigrants who cheat the system so easily because they benefit from proximity of a convenient land border they can sneak across in such vast numbers are hogging up those limited visa slots you just mentioned in this video. Because of family unification and asylum policies, once they GET here they often get to the front of the line and take up visas which are now denied to visa applicants from other countries that don't have a convenient land border and are forced by geography to do it the right way. More Mexicans means fewer Africans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. Ironically, your very pro-Mexican position is anti-diversity.
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What you don't seem to realize is that going after the employers, while fair, hurts more immigrants from Mexico. If they stop enticing them up here, congratulations. You've succeeded in taking jobs and lifestyle improvements away from those would-be migrants. Whether we stop hiring them and therefore close the door in their face or we round them up and deport them, you're still denying them access to the US. What's more, the Mexican and South American immigrants who cheat the system so easily because they benefit from proximity of a convenient land border they can sneak across in such vast numbers are hogging up those limited visa slots you just mentioned in this video. Because of family unification and asylum policies, once they GET here they often get to the front of the line and take up visas which are now denied to visa applicants from other countries that don't have a convenient land border and are forced by geography to do it the right way. More Mexicans means fewer Africans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. Ironically, your very pro-Mexican position is anti-diversity.
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Asharra12
As an Australian, there are a lot of problems with our immigration system as well. Not as many, but we also have illegal immigration in the form of visa overstays. Worse those here on visas are paid minimum wage (which is high) on paper but in actuality work double the hours that they are paid for and so their per hour pay is actually much lower. Rural farms are even worse here for being isolated too since our country is the size of the US, but a fraction of the population. So we have a class of isolated, exploitable farm workers who come from overseas and are worked at half minimum wage. And our food prices are high to boot because we have a duopoly on the food chains that the government has choosen to never solve.
And that's not even getting into how ashamed I am at how Australia treats asylum seekers by locking them into overseas prisons that violate many human rights. So I wouldn't advertise Australia as a way of doing immigration as an end goal, as we leave much to be desired. We may be better than the US at immigration, but the bar is in hell, so that's not hard.
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As an Australian, there are a lot of problems with our immigration system as well. Not as many, but we also have illegal immigration in the form of visa overstays. Worse those here on visas are paid minimum wage (which is high) on paper but in actuality work double the hours that they are paid for and so their per hour pay is actually much lower. Rural farms are even worse here for being isolated too since our country is the size of the US, but a fraction of the population. So we have a class of isolated, exploitable farm workers who come from overseas and are worked at half minimum wage. And our food prices are high to boot because we have a duopoly on the food chains that the government has choosen to never solve.
And that's not even getting into how ashamed I am at how Australia treats asylum seekers by locking them into overseas prisons that violate many human rights. So I wouldn't advertise Australia as a way of doing immigration as an end goal, as we leave much to be desired. We may be better than the US at immigration, but the bar is in hell, so that's not hard.
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OrigamiMarie
Such a good explanation.
I've been making a comparison to common law marriage, lately. If a couple has been living together and doing a bunch of marriage-like stuff for long enough, in most states they are common law married despite the lack of contract. Sure, the common law marriage is kind of unreliable and doesn't do a lot of the useful things that an actual marriage contract does. But if one party suddenly decides they don't like the other party's face anymore, and says well you've been an interesting renter, but it's over now, get gone and don't expect me to forward your stuff or any of our shared money, they can't just take the kickee's furniture. The one being ejected from the situation can sue for divorce, and actually get their half of the profits of the marriage.
I feel like we're in an immigration common law situation with a lot of people. There aren't actually laws that protect them, but we've definitely been behaving a lot like they are due a certain amount of predictability from the US, and suddenly we've gone bananas.
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Such a good explanation.
I've been making a comparison to common law marriage, lately. If a couple has been living together and doing a bunch of marriage-like stuff for long enough, in most states they are common law married despite the lack of contract. Sure, the common law marriage is kind of unreliable and doesn't do a lot of the useful things that an actual marriage contract does. But if one party suddenly decides they don't like the other party's face anymore, and says well you've been an interesting renter, but it's over now, get gone and don't expect me to forward your stuff or any of our shared money, they can't just take the kickee's furniture. The one being ejected from the situation can sue for divorce, and actually get their half of the profits of the marriage.
I feel like we're in an immigration common law situation with a lot of people. There aren't actually laws that protect them, but we've definitely been behaving a lot like they are due a certain amount of predictability from the US, and suddenly we've gone bananas.
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Vahtacen
There's nothing stopping the government introducing, or expanding, temporary agricultural work visas. Most countries have them.
But in the long term, I question whether it is in the national interest to flood this particular market with cheap foreign labour. This inevitably drives down wages, creating a negative feedback loop. Of course native people dont want to do gruelling, demanding work for $5 an hour. But they can only offer those low wages because there are illegals willing to work for them and the govt has historically turned a blind eye. Of course, the consequence of this will be higher food prices, borne by consumers, but also likely more investment in labour productivity. In the end, the question we should be asking is: what did people vote for They voted to end the programme of mass, illegal and mostly uncontrolled immigration which they never wanted or voted for in the first place. Now it is the duty of the govt to work out how to implement what the public wants while minimizing harm to the economy, citizens and (yes) illegals.
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There's nothing stopping the government introducing, or expanding, temporary agricultural work visas. Most countries have them.
But in the long term, I question whether it is in the national interest to flood this particular market with cheap foreign labour. This inevitably drives down wages, creating a negative feedback loop. Of course native people dont want to do gruelling, demanding work for $5 an hour. But they can only offer those low wages because there are illegals willing to work for them and the govt has historically turned a blind eye. Of course, the consequence of this will be higher food prices, borne by consumers, but also likely more investment in labour productivity. In the end, the question we should be asking is: what did people vote for They voted to end the programme of mass, illegal and mostly uncontrolled immigration which they never wanted or voted for in the first place. Now it is the duty of the govt to work out how to implement what the public wants while minimizing harm to the economy, citizens and (yes) illegals.
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SaulGoodman2049
You can’t simultaneously claim farms, meat packing, etc. depend on cheap exploitable people then say the solution is to make the people less cheap and exploitable by giving them citizenship. That is completely unsustainable. The US should not require a mass influx of illegals to support its food production. Fixing that is the only way to truly solve the problem. So while I disagree with offering citizenship or massively increasing immigration, I recognize the current need for these workers. The immigration system needs to be modernized to current US needs and once put in place have a zero tolerance policy for illegal immigration, pretty much exactly how you said. I will also add that the government should require or incentivize the industries dependent on this labor to find ways to reduce the need for people in any way possible. Mass immigration will do long term damage even if we need it in the short term so reducing the need for immigrants is a priority.
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You can’t simultaneously claim farms, meat packing, etc. depend on cheap exploitable people then say the solution is to make the people less cheap and exploitable by giving them citizenship. That is completely unsustainable. The US should not require a mass influx of illegals to support its food production. Fixing that is the only way to truly solve the problem. So while I disagree with offering citizenship or massively increasing immigration, I recognize the current need for these workers. The immigration system needs to be modernized to current US needs and once put in place have a zero tolerance policy for illegal immigration, pretty much exactly how you said. I will also add that the government should require or incentivize the industries dependent on this labor to find ways to reduce the need for people in any way possible. Mass immigration will do long term damage even if we need it in the short term so reducing the need for immigrants is a priority.
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constablekohler
7: 31 but this is economic fact. Pricing for anything and everything including labor is set by market forces (even though government regulation meddles in the process and creates bad signaling. I grew up in one of these areas with family who immigrated and became citizens and worked farm labor jobs until opportunities to move upwards presented themselves. I have relatives who became citizens but didn't do anything to improve their situation and have been stuck as farm workers for almost their entire lives. I remember my HS days early early morning seeing busses full of workers all down a specific street lined with gas stations prepping for work day. It's a tough life. But it's an economic fact that wages and prospects in Mexico truly suck. We are only willing to pay a certain amount of money for our produce and that low price is imputed backwards towards all of the inputs that go into produce, including labor.
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7: 31 but this is economic fact. Pricing for anything and everything including labor is set by market forces (even though government regulation meddles in the process and creates bad signaling. I grew up in one of these areas with family who immigrated and became citizens and worked farm labor jobs until opportunities to move upwards presented themselves. I have relatives who became citizens but didn't do anything to improve their situation and have been stuck as farm workers for almost their entire lives. I remember my HS days early early morning seeing busses full of workers all down a specific street lined with gas stations prepping for work day. It's a tough life. But it's an economic fact that wages and prospects in Mexico truly suck. We are only willing to pay a certain amount of money for our produce and that low price is imputed backwards towards all of the inputs that go into produce, including labor.
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chuckmarius323
China is rubbing it's hands seeing all this shit happening in america rn: ) the only reason america is as strong and secure as it is right now, and able to bully anyone it wants, is because it is self-sufficient for food and oil. americans aren't going to tolerate their food prices going up by a factor of four, so they''ll import their food. that'll make them vulnerable to interference and in case of a war, china can't bully or bribe the us, but it can bully or bribe whatever agrarian nation it imports from, which means china can now starve out the us - which is a democracy dependent on the political will of the citizens, china isn't, they can play that game until the last chinese guy dies of hunger, they've already done that in the past and the same government is in charge now, they'll gladly do so again to bring down the us. so yeah, gl hf, you voted for this: )
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China is rubbing it's hands seeing all this shit happening in america rn: ) the only reason america is as strong and secure as it is right now, and able to bully anyone it wants, is because it is self-sufficient for food and oil. americans aren't going to tolerate their food prices going up by a factor of four, so they''ll import their food. that'll make them vulnerable to interference and in case of a war, china can't bully or bribe the us, but it can bully or bribe whatever agrarian nation it imports from, which means china can now starve out the us - which is a democracy dependent on the political will of the citizens, china isn't, they can play that game until the last chinese guy dies of hunger, they've already done that in the past and the same government is in charge now, they'll gladly do so again to bring down the us. so yeah, gl hf, you voted for this: )
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theblackrose3130
Until 1850 there wasn't a border between northern Mexico and California, a huge chunk of the population of California are Californios literally descended from when it used to be a part of Mexico. Everything about this is ridiculous, the border itself is ridiculous. The rhetoric would make you forget that this is land that has violently changed hands several times (native land -> Spain -> Mexico -> USA) very very recently and which has its own unique cultural mix as a result. The American border and all heavy handed immigration control of this region is actively and artificially destroying this as a result, I honestly think one way of fighting this rhetoric is to make this clear pan-americanism, American Nationalism, exist to destroy the unique and interesting cultures in favour of boring homogenised and commercialised whiteness.
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Until 1850 there wasn't a border between northern Mexico and California, a huge chunk of the population of California are Californios literally descended from when it used to be a part of Mexico. Everything about this is ridiculous, the border itself is ridiculous. The rhetoric would make you forget that this is land that has violently changed hands several times (native land -> Spain -> Mexico -> USA) very very recently and which has its own unique cultural mix as a result. The American border and all heavy handed immigration control of this region is actively and artificially destroying this as a result, I honestly think one way of fighting this rhetoric is to make this clear pan-americanism, American Nationalism, exist to destroy the unique and interesting cultures in favour of boring homogenised and commercialised whiteness.
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