Cyberpunk 2.0 Ray Reconstruction Comparison, DLSS 3.5, & Benchmarks
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Date: 2023-09-21
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Comments and reviews: 19
Darlokt
Just as info, what you called gritty details at 16:18 (and probably also at 16:59) are actually artefacts from the (temporal) denoisers. This is not supposed to be there, you can see it from the pulsing of the pixels, as it struggles with the accumulation of (temporal) information due to the glossy and irregular nature of the surface at a subpixel level, the RR version is probably way more accurate. It s a common problem with the hand-tuned denoisers used, you can see it even better in some of the sequin-like-in-surface outfits worn by some characters in the game like I believe Hanako (?). Also the higher perceived sharpness is not oversharpening per se, but rather a byproduct of performing denoising and upscaling in one process. Both at a very high level work alike, sacrificing high frequency detail for a cleaner image, so with RR you only do it once, maintaining more high frequency information in the output image, therefore sharper . It s remotely comparable to recompressing a compressed video and loosing even more information in the process.
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Just as info, what you called gritty details at 16:18 (and probably also at 16:59) are actually artefacts from the (temporal) denoisers. This is not supposed to be there, you can see it from the pulsing of the pixels, as it struggles with the accumulation of (temporal) information due to the glossy and irregular nature of the surface at a subpixel level, the RR version is probably way more accurate. It s a common problem with the hand-tuned denoisers used, you can see it even better in some of the sequin-like-in-surface outfits worn by some characters in the game like I believe Hanako (?). Also the higher perceived sharpness is not oversharpening per se, but rather a byproduct of performing denoising and upscaling in one process. Both at a very high level work alike, sacrificing high frequency detail for a cleaner image, so with RR you only do it once, maintaining more high frequency information in the output image, therefore sharper . It s remotely comparable to recompressing a compressed video and loosing even more information in the process.
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Robe
As an AMD user, I think this stuff is pretty awesome and I wish I could use it. As DF has talked about, I'm sure reviews for GPUs have become much more difficult as image quality is something that isnt easily quantified, and it seems as though AMD is more focused on native resolution via rasterized graphics (hence larger VRAM), and Nvidia is really pushing for ray tracing effects that their cards can't technically do yet so they upscale. Obviously native rendering is ideal, it eliminates the ghosting/shimmering/blur effects (usually, not always), but these cutting edge features are just too intense for even the 4090 to run. I just still can't in good conscience move/recommend Nvidia because of the proprietary nature of this software. I see no reason they couldn't have done the Intel XeSS path where their cards just do it a bit better with their Tensor cores. Nvidia just has such market dominance that people don't really mind. And yes Im sure AMD/Intel would try the same if they could.
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As an AMD user, I think this stuff is pretty awesome and I wish I could use it. As DF has talked about, I'm sure reviews for GPUs have become much more difficult as image quality is something that isnt easily quantified, and it seems as though AMD is more focused on native resolution via rasterized graphics (hence larger VRAM), and Nvidia is really pushing for ray tracing effects that their cards can't technically do yet so they upscale. Obviously native rendering is ideal, it eliminates the ghosting/shimmering/blur effects (usually, not always), but these cutting edge features are just too intense for even the 4090 to run. I just still can't in good conscience move/recommend Nvidia because of the proprietary nature of this software. I see no reason they couldn't have done the Intel XeSS path where their cards just do it a bit better with their Tensor cores. Nvidia just has such market dominance that people don't really mind. And yes Im sure AMD/Intel would try the same if they could.
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mahatmagandhiful
Stopping at the halfway point just to throw out a quick comment: This was billed almost as another revolution in raytracing visual quality, but its benefits are extremely diminishing returns to my eyes. The ghosting in FSR is apparent but not too dissimilar from the ghosting in DLSS is apparent but not too dissimilar from the ghosting in DLSS 3.5, and in all three cases I'd have to be actively looking for them to notice them. Same with the lighting and reflections; it looks like they just added a sharpening pass on top of the denoising filter, or like someone more tightly focusing a flashlight by turning the lens.
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Stopping at the halfway point just to throw out a quick comment: This was billed almost as another revolution in raytracing visual quality, but its benefits are extremely diminishing returns to my eyes. The ghosting in FSR is apparent but not too dissimilar from the ghosting in DLSS is apparent but not too dissimilar from the ghosting in DLSS 3.5, and in all three cases I'd have to be actively looking for them to notice them. Same with the lighting and reflections; it looks like they just added a sharpening pass on top of the denoising filter, or like someone more tightly focusing a flashlight by turning the lens.
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EkiToji
Anyone else feel like this is just showing a win for rasterization? It's a mature technology and game designers know how to utilize it well, whereas whether you use trained AI or manually tuned denoisers you're still not really adding much of substance while also making other areas look worse. Nvidia seems so obsessed with ray tracing and of course as things continually improve that will mean something, but DLSS 3.5 just gives me further evidence of why I don't care about it today and how even with a 4090 that is finally a graphics card that can seemingly handle 4k RT it still is very far from a great experience.
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Anyone else feel like this is just showing a win for rasterization? It's a mature technology and game designers know how to utilize it well, whereas whether you use trained AI or manually tuned denoisers you're still not really adding much of substance while also making other areas look worse. Nvidia seems so obsessed with ray tracing and of course as things continually improve that will mean something, but DLSS 3.5 just gives me further evidence of why I don't care about it today and how even with a 4090 that is finally a graphics card that can seemingly handle 4k RT it still is very far from a great experience.
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sermerlin1
So basically at worst case scenarios ray reconstruction (RR) it's no different to denoisers... Where denoisers will look bad in one way RR may look bad in some other ways... And at average and BEST case scenarios it just looks plainly better. More light radiation visible (Not scrubbed by the denoisers), less smudged up reflections etc... AND performance is better especially for minimum and 0.1% minimum.
This is the absolute win if you ask me and the way to play CP77. DLSS ultra perf (4070 - 3090 - 3080) + path tracing RR, DLSS perf (4080 - 4090) + path tracing RR.
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So basically at worst case scenarios ray reconstruction (RR) it's no different to denoisers... Where denoisers will look bad in one way RR may look bad in some other ways... And at average and BEST case scenarios it just looks plainly better. More light radiation visible (Not scrubbed by the denoisers), less smudged up reflections etc... AND performance is better especially for minimum and 0.1% minimum.
This is the absolute win if you ask me and the way to play CP77. DLSS ultra perf (4070 - 3090 - 3080) + path tracing RR, DLSS perf (4080 - 4090) + path tracing RR.
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itech
A recommendation for a future video. How about doing an in-depth dive on how to optimize graphics settings in a game to get the best performance. This would be a generic discussion and would include how various settings impact fps as well as graphic fidelity. It would also be good to tie different graphic settings to hardware features on a GPU. For example, how does a particular hardware feature drive certain graphical aspects of the game and what settings control that?
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A recommendation for a future video. How about doing an in-depth dive on how to optimize graphics settings in a game to get the best performance. This would be a generic discussion and would include how various settings impact fps as well as graphic fidelity. It would also be good to tie different graphic settings to hardware features on a GPU. For example, how does a particular hardware feature drive certain graphical aspects of the game and what settings control that?
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Emily-sx
The noise and image quality with path tracing on in Cyberpunk on my 3070ti was not really playable at 1440p with performance DLSS on it's initial release, it ran at 40-50 fps and I wasn't okay with lowering the performance any further so I stopped playing after an hour or two. I'm curious if ray reconstruction is good enough to make the path tracing mode playable now, from this comparison, it doesn't sound like it's going to do enough, but I'll be testing it out.
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The noise and image quality with path tracing on in Cyberpunk on my 3070ti was not really playable at 1440p with performance DLSS on it's initial release, it ran at 40-50 fps and I wasn't okay with lowering the performance any further so I stopped playing after an hour or two. I'm curious if ray reconstruction is good enough to make the path tracing mode playable now, from this comparison, it doesn't sound like it's going to do enough, but I'll be testing it out.
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Backfischritter
You guys tested it against denoisers which is great and all. But they are also not a great ground truth to begin with honestly. It would be great to have games/environments where you could render a scene with way more casted rays (not in real time then of course) and then compare both conventional denoisers and ray reconstruction to those ground truth scenes. Just a thought of mine, even though this seems to be impossible to implement at the moment.
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You guys tested it against denoisers which is great and all. But they are also not a great ground truth to begin with honestly. It would be great to have games/environments where you could render a scene with way more casted rays (not in real time then of course) and then compare both conventional denoisers and ray reconstruction to those ground truth scenes. Just a thought of mine, even though this seems to be impossible to implement at the moment.
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EthelbertCoyote
Just a tip: The difference Transfer Mode in After Effects and potentially in Premier is your friend Gamers Nexus, would have helped here. Given a locked frame rate it will show you where the image is different, yeah it's super problematic with VRR footage but that struggle also tells you where there is in game struggling. It is not great video for viewers but Think it will help if your not doing it with a diagnosis for pros/cons.
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Just a tip: The difference Transfer Mode in After Effects and potentially in Premier is your friend Gamers Nexus, would have helped here. Given a locked frame rate it will show you where the image is different, yeah it's super problematic with VRR footage but that struggle also tells you where there is in game struggling. It is not great video for viewers but Think it will help if your not doing it with a diagnosis for pros/cons.
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LostMethods
ive got a 13900k and 4090 and i still dont turn on RT in games because of the hit to FPS. Its just not worth it imo. Most of the time the difference is very subtle. When you play the game for the first time and turn RT on youll sit there and pick the image apart but after you actually start playing the game you wont do that anymore. Having better gameplay is way more important than oh that reflection in a puddle is slightly clearer .
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ive got a 13900k and 4090 and i still dont turn on RT in games because of the hit to FPS. Its just not worth it imo. Most of the time the difference is very subtle. When you play the game for the first time and turn RT on youll sit there and pick the image apart but after you actually start playing the game you wont do that anymore. Having better gameplay is way more important than oh that reflection in a puddle is slightly clearer .
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Existential
I wish DLAA didn't always get the short end of the stick. You're comparing a lot of different variables here and it's hard to tell if ghosting is caused by ray reconstruction, upscaling, or just the fundamental dlss/dlaa algorithm.
Its definitely some incredible technology, but not everyone with a high end card has a high resolution monitor to match so native rendering with DLAA would be good to have
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I wish DLAA didn't always get the short end of the stick. You're comparing a lot of different variables here and it's hard to tell if ghosting is caused by ray reconstruction, upscaling, or just the fundamental dlss/dlaa algorithm.
Its definitely some incredible technology, but not everyone with a high end card has a high resolution monitor to match so native rendering with DLAA would be good to have
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Zzz
I think it looks incredible. I know the general PC community is heavily biased for or against Nvidia but wow. This is a gamechanger for RT reflections. Unfortunately I have tried Radeon cards but losing DLSS for 50 - 100 dollars of value is just not worth it. FSR looks bad and FSR3 is probably not going to compete even close to DLSS. This is a forward looking technology for blackwell.
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I think it looks incredible. I know the general PC community is heavily biased for or against Nvidia but wow. This is a gamechanger for RT reflections. Unfortunately I have tried Radeon cards but losing DLSS for 50 - 100 dollars of value is just not worth it. FSR looks bad and FSR3 is probably not going to compete even close to DLSS. This is a forward looking technology for blackwell.
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Aotearas
I'd love to see a CPU test now that the devs have included higher core count support with the current patch. I am very interested to see how my R9 3900X would stack up. Its single core performance isn't as good as the newer generations, but I'd hope that with better utilization of cores it'd be a solid performer leaving only my old GPU as the performance bottleneck.
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I'd love to see a CPU test now that the devs have included higher core count support with the current patch. I am very interested to see how my R9 3900X would stack up. Its single core performance isn't as good as the newer generations, but I'd hope that with better utilization of cores it'd be a solid performer leaving only my old GPU as the performance bottleneck.
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Tom
The scene beginning at 6:49 is exactly what annoys me the most with RT/PT in Cyberpunk, it's just over the top, in which dimension wet wood act as a perfect mirror ? Even puddles doesn't do that realistically. I can sound nitpicking but the whole RT/PT was marketed as creating realistic lightning effects/mirroring and this is not the case here.
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The scene beginning at 6:49 is exactly what annoys me the most with RT/PT in Cyberpunk, it's just over the top, in which dimension wet wood act as a perfect mirror ? Even puddles doesn't do that realistically. I can sound nitpicking but the whole RT/PT was marketed as creating realistic lightning effects/mirroring and this is not the case here.
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Kyle
Currently looking to get 6 fans for my gaming build, 7900xtx and 7900x. Was wondering what fans have the best cooling cause I currently have 3 fans from my liquid cooler, 3 fans built into the gpu and 2 case fans and getting temps on cpu and gpu of low 80s. Want temps in 60s. Don t care about RGB the pc is hidden anyways behind the monitor.
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Currently looking to get 6 fans for my gaming build, 7900xtx and 7900x. Was wondering what fans have the best cooling cause I currently have 3 fans from my liquid cooler, 3 fans built into the gpu and 2 case fans and getting temps on cpu and gpu of low 80s. Want temps in 60s. Don t care about RGB the pc is hidden anyways behind the monitor.
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VelcorHF
It s likely they are running their engineers and tech through a last minute gauntlet. It s not an embargo schedule, that s marketing and leadership dictating a development pace to overworked engineers so they can show this tech off. Building the rails and train while you are driving the train at high speed is all the rage.
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It s likely they are running their engineers and tech through a last minute gauntlet. It s not an embargo schedule, that s marketing and leadership dictating a development pace to overworked engineers so they can show this tech off. Building the rails and train while you are driving the train at high speed is all the rage.
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Clown
It looks poopoo compared to the base picture. And, as usual, ngreedya fanboys are excited about it ! But when you show FSR being 90% as good as DLSS, they poopoo AMD, even though FSR works on all GPUs. This is INSANE and gamers deserve to get poopooed by ngreedya with poopoo prices because they have poopoo in their heads.
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It looks poopoo compared to the base picture. And, as usual, ngreedya fanboys are excited about it ! But when you show FSR being 90% as good as DLSS, they poopoo AMD, even though FSR works on all GPUs. This is INSANE and gamers deserve to get poopooed by ngreedya with poopoo prices because they have poopoo in their heads.
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Michael
I just checked STEAM DB and see 1 million people currently online playing CSGO and not giving a SHlT about cyberpunk or Ray reconstruction and to be honesty I think they are on to something. This video affirms that NVidia is selling snake oil to gullible people with too much time on there hands.
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I just checked STEAM DB and see 1 million people currently online playing CSGO and not giving a SHlT about cyberpunk or Ray reconstruction and to be honesty I think they are on to something. This video affirms that NVidia is selling snake oil to gullible people with too much time on there hands.
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JcGross
What a completely different result than what I have heard so far! Thank you, your unbiased opinion shows through yet again!
Nvidia touting this tech as revolutionary, game changing, making the game look lightyears better, when in fact they used a few choice instances for their comparisons.
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What a completely different result than what I have heard so far! Thank you, your unbiased opinion shows through yet again!
Nvidia touting this tech as revolutionary, game changing, making the game look lightyears better, when in fact they used a few choice instances for their comparisons.
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