RTX gets a killer app, Radeon VII dies, the best time to buy hardware, Q&A - The Full Nerd ep. 104
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Date: 2022-03-15
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Comments and reviews: 10
TheDarthTux
Re Ray tracing: I remember saying games that will make the most of ray tracing will be those triple A titles planned for release this year and forward. Ray tracing in things like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Metro Exodus, and BFV were really marketing after thoughts and it explains why they had to be patched in or in the case of Metro the game was slightly delayed. Expecting more games with DXR and Vulkan ray tracing to be released and pressure to mount on AMD to do something.
Watching Adam and Gordon yesterday, not really sure that Control being a game of stealth and cinematic visuals like Max Payne is really something that would benefit from high fps. Yes high fps will help but if Max Payne is anything to go by you will be playing the game at walking pace and using bullet time a lot. When everything is in slow motion, high fps I'm not sure matters; getting -60fps should be just fine. At least that's my opinion. In fact even with Metro despite all the complaining about low frame rates, I personally never noticed anything and was running it on a Windows VM with a 2080ti at 4K High to Ultra. Game was smooth even if video capture in OBS was terrible for some reason.
Re Radeon VII: Guess someone did tell me that come October I would be thinking of changing my Radeon VII for whatever AMD release. That said, I may sell the Vega 64s and get a second Radeon VII if prices drop. Waiting for Navi 20 and AMD's ray tracing implementation to make a decision on upgrade. Even if there was a Navi 10 that matched the 2080ti, unless AMD said it could do equivalent in game real time ray tracing, there's no point upgrading.
Re the stores: As a Linux user, I REFUSE to do EPIC because of their position on Linux and it is troubling that 3rd party developers/studios are signing exclusivity deals with EPIC. This means that even though I luv'd Max Payne and own all versions of the game (1, 2, and 3 on CDs and 3 on PS3, and would have been racing to buy Control. Knowing it is an EPIC store exclusive (even though the studio is not owned by EPIC) means I will now definitely not be buying Control.
I mean even GOG plan to provide Linux support. So having a second application in GOG along side Steam is one thing, but when a company like EPIC is openly hostile to Linux that's a completely different thing altogether! And will not get my money nor will the developers or the games studio until that hostility changes! People may complain about Valve and talk about competition, but those people know nothing about what competition actually is and completely fail to understand that competition is not just about prices but product differentiation! Valve and GOG get that and are differentiating their stores and services by among other things supporting Linux which while a small user base is increasing in number. Heck even Microsoft get it with their announced plan to make their games available on Steam as well as their Store. Meaning it is very likely those games will run on Linux and may get native ports. Microsoft have even made DX12 opensource for Linux development and it is now better supported in WINE! EPIC, Ubisoft, EA and others do not get that. So it is not about just opening another application.
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Re Ray tracing: I remember saying games that will make the most of ray tracing will be those triple A titles planned for release this year and forward. Ray tracing in things like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Metro Exodus, and BFV were really marketing after thoughts and it explains why they had to be patched in or in the case of Metro the game was slightly delayed. Expecting more games with DXR and Vulkan ray tracing to be released and pressure to mount on AMD to do something.
Watching Adam and Gordon yesterday, not really sure that Control being a game of stealth and cinematic visuals like Max Payne is really something that would benefit from high fps. Yes high fps will help but if Max Payne is anything to go by you will be playing the game at walking pace and using bullet time a lot. When everything is in slow motion, high fps I'm not sure matters; getting -60fps should be just fine. At least that's my opinion. In fact even with Metro despite all the complaining about low frame rates, I personally never noticed anything and was running it on a Windows VM with a 2080ti at 4K High to Ultra. Game was smooth even if video capture in OBS was terrible for some reason.
Re Radeon VII: Guess someone did tell me that come October I would be thinking of changing my Radeon VII for whatever AMD release. That said, I may sell the Vega 64s and get a second Radeon VII if prices drop. Waiting for Navi 20 and AMD's ray tracing implementation to make a decision on upgrade. Even if there was a Navi 10 that matched the 2080ti, unless AMD said it could do equivalent in game real time ray tracing, there's no point upgrading.
Re the stores: As a Linux user, I REFUSE to do EPIC because of their position on Linux and it is troubling that 3rd party developers/studios are signing exclusivity deals with EPIC. This means that even though I luv'd Max Payne and own all versions of the game (1, 2, and 3 on CDs and 3 on PS3, and would have been racing to buy Control. Knowing it is an EPIC store exclusive (even though the studio is not owned by EPIC) means I will now definitely not be buying Control.
I mean even GOG plan to provide Linux support. So having a second application in GOG along side Steam is one thing, but when a company like EPIC is openly hostile to Linux that's a completely different thing altogether! And will not get my money nor will the developers or the games studio until that hostility changes! People may complain about Valve and talk about competition, but those people know nothing about what competition actually is and completely fail to understand that competition is not just about prices but product differentiation! Valve and GOG get that and are differentiating their stores and services by among other things supporting Linux which while a small user base is increasing in number. Heck even Microsoft get it with their announced plan to make their games available on Steam as well as their Store. Meaning it is very likely those games will run on Linux and may get native ports. Microsoft have even made DX12 opensource for Linux development and it is now better supported in WINE! EPIC, Ubisoft, EA and others do not get that. So it is not about just opening another application.
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Nocturnal101
Have yet to play Control, a pleasant surprise was playing Remnant From the Ashes and getting sucked into that, I don't think anyone thought that game was going to sell as well as it did.
People asking for RTX 4k 60/120fps this early with the technology either don't understand the tech, Have a short memory of the past, or are just plain trolling idiots. I love when people forget about gaming during the PS1 and N64 days where you started moving from Sprites/Vector graphics to actual raster 3D games and you had dips into the low 20's fps wise simply because IT WAS NEW AND TAXING as every freaking new graphical technology that ever came along. There are many new technologies that were at inception that led to terrible FPS numbers.
The R7 was just a stopgap product I mean it is cool and everything, but Vega man, it was great for compute but sucked with Gaming numbers. AMD guys just need to hold on for Navi for the high end. I do seriously pity the R7 owners though, It was a clear example of buying at the wrong time.
Buying hardware is a very very fickle thing, the right time to buy is almost always when you need it, but there are exceptions where you should probably hold off.
1- There are ground breaking technological steps that come around, its not really a great idea to buy something at the end of the life cycle when new shiny is on the way examples would have been buying right before x58 or z68 came out staying on AM3 or Socket 775 as good as something like the Q6600 was so unless you get a hell of a deal, its not worth it.
2- Deal times, Black Friday/PrimeDay - sometimes are great and at other times are crap, The best sales I ever ran into have been on the After Christmas new year sales, and believe it or not father's and Mother's day Dell runs great deals on their laptops during those times, also check with your company deals as they stack on top of holiday deals. The main problem with buying at certain holidays like Black Friday is when the venders hike up the price to MSRP and place a % discount on it, but the kicker was that it sold at that same price all year long, I loved that with the Razer Phone 2 -Prime day deal 400$, well they hiked it up to $800 a few weeks before and called it a deal, yet it was on 90% of the year at that price.
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Have yet to play Control, a pleasant surprise was playing Remnant From the Ashes and getting sucked into that, I don't think anyone thought that game was going to sell as well as it did.
People asking for RTX 4k 60/120fps this early with the technology either don't understand the tech, Have a short memory of the past, or are just plain trolling idiots. I love when people forget about gaming during the PS1 and N64 days where you started moving from Sprites/Vector graphics to actual raster 3D games and you had dips into the low 20's fps wise simply because IT WAS NEW AND TAXING as every freaking new graphical technology that ever came along. There are many new technologies that were at inception that led to terrible FPS numbers.
The R7 was just a stopgap product I mean it is cool and everything, but Vega man, it was great for compute but sucked with Gaming numbers. AMD guys just need to hold on for Navi for the high end. I do seriously pity the R7 owners though, It was a clear example of buying at the wrong time.
Buying hardware is a very very fickle thing, the right time to buy is almost always when you need it, but there are exceptions where you should probably hold off.
1- There are ground breaking technological steps that come around, its not really a great idea to buy something at the end of the life cycle when new shiny is on the way examples would have been buying right before x58 or z68 came out staying on AM3 or Socket 775 as good as something like the Q6600 was so unless you get a hell of a deal, its not worth it.
2- Deal times, Black Friday/PrimeDay - sometimes are great and at other times are crap, The best sales I ever ran into have been on the After Christmas new year sales, and believe it or not father's and Mother's day Dell runs great deals on their laptops during those times, also check with your company deals as they stack on top of holiday deals. The main problem with buying at certain holidays like Black Friday is when the venders hike up the price to MSRP and place a % discount on it, but the kicker was that it sold at that same price all year long, I loved that with the Razer Phone 2 -Prime day deal 400$, well they hiked it up to $800 a few weeks before and called it a deal, yet it was on 90% of the year at that price.
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THE
Most benchmarks and comparisons I have seen find that the laptop 2060 (there is no maxq for this in the wild to my knowledge) is only about 4-5% slower in applications that need the extra Ram than a 2070maxq and can actually be 3-4% faster at times than the 2070maxQ in apps that do not need the 2070MaxQ's extra ram or flex its extra cores. This is because the laptop 2060 not being a maxQ runs at a higher clock speed from what I have seen, so despite having less cores and less ram they are close to equal, as such for many buyers if the cost delta is more than $100 the 2060 is probably the better buy (the 2070 will due to its extra ram be a little more future -resilient-. -Note if you don't need RTX the 1660Ti is almost as quick as the 1660Ti making the 1660ti by far the best bang for buck laptop GPU - In sum the 1660Ti which is hundreds cheaper than a 2070 Max Q is only around 8-12% slower in most games to get a big jump you really have to jump to the 2080max q or a NON max q card GPU) I personally don't think a GPU beyond the 2060 is needed on a laptop if you only have a 1080 monitor.
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Most benchmarks and comparisons I have seen find that the laptop 2060 (there is no maxq for this in the wild to my knowledge) is only about 4-5% slower in applications that need the extra Ram than a 2070maxq and can actually be 3-4% faster at times than the 2070maxQ in apps that do not need the 2070MaxQ's extra ram or flex its extra cores. This is because the laptop 2060 not being a maxQ runs at a higher clock speed from what I have seen, so despite having less cores and less ram they are close to equal, as such for many buyers if the cost delta is more than $100 the 2060 is probably the better buy (the 2070 will due to its extra ram be a little more future -resilient-. -Note if you don't need RTX the 1660Ti is almost as quick as the 1660Ti making the 1660ti by far the best bang for buck laptop GPU - In sum the 1660Ti which is hundreds cheaper than a 2070 Max Q is only around 8-12% slower in most games to get a big jump you really have to jump to the 2080max q or a NON max q card GPU) I personally don't think a GPU beyond the 2060 is needed on a laptop if you only have a 1080 monitor.
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Max
Radeon VII was a great workstation card presented to the public as a gamer card. An Instinct MI50 for $700 was a steal. 'moore's law' -It's the Threadripper of Graphics cards. - It was $700 at launch and it's still $700. It's RX 570/580/590 and RTX 2060/2070/2080-s that are sitting on the shelves getting a price cut. RX580/590 and RTX Non-Super cards are the one's that took a price dive. Every Gigabyte/MSI/Asus/PowerColor Radeon VII is sold out. OK, Name a card for $700 to $1500 card that will out perform a Radeon VII with the Radeon Pro Drivers.
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Radeon VII was a great workstation card presented to the public as a gamer card. An Instinct MI50 for $700 was a steal. 'moore's law' -It's the Threadripper of Graphics cards. - It was $700 at launch and it's still $700. It's RX 570/580/590 and RTX 2060/2070/2080-s that are sitting on the shelves getting a price cut. RX580/590 and RTX Non-Super cards are the one's that took a price dive. Every Gigabyte/MSI/Asus/PowerColor Radeon VII is sold out. OK, Name a card for $700 to $1500 card that will out perform a Radeon VII with the Radeon Pro Drivers.
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Cip
So much EGS ass kissing around here just because you get a couple of free games.
EGS is anti consumer. There is plenty of dirt on EGS around, maybe you should read up on that.
Also Control is not an RTX killer app.
Buying an RTX card is crazy if you don't game on 1080p.
Most people that buy high end gpu's do not game on 1080p.
The version of Control free of EGS malware runs like crap on 3440x1440 with RTX.
RTX high 40-45 fps.
RTX medium 40-55 fps.
And this perf is on my 2080Ti FTW3(1850$.
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So much EGS ass kissing around here just because you get a couple of free games.
EGS is anti consumer. There is plenty of dirt on EGS around, maybe you should read up on that.
Also Control is not an RTX killer app.
Buying an RTX card is crazy if you don't game on 1080p.
Most people that buy high end gpu's do not game on 1080p.
The version of Control free of EGS malware runs like crap on 3440x1440 with RTX.
RTX high 40-45 fps.
RTX medium 40-55 fps.
And this perf is on my 2080Ti FTW3(1850$.
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Albert
I have a 3440x1440 100hz IPS panel that I specifically built my system around (9900k and 2080 Ti. I specifically went for top of the line because of the resolution of my monitor and hoping for fps in the range of 80+ with AAA games (which is exactly what I'm getting most of the time. With maxed settings, based on Nvidia's performance guide, I'm probably looking at 30fps or less with my top of the line system. That's depressing as hell. Also, I wonder how many people actually bought a 2080 Ti to game at 1080p.
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I have a 3440x1440 100hz IPS panel that I specifically built my system around (9900k and 2080 Ti. I specifically went for top of the line because of the resolution of my monitor and hoping for fps in the range of 80+ with AAA games (which is exactly what I'm getting most of the time. With maxed settings, based on Nvidia's performance guide, I'm probably looking at 30fps or less with my top of the line system. That's depressing as hell. Also, I wonder how many people actually bought a 2080 Ti to game at 1080p.
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Edwin
PEOPLE PLEASE READ: -----
I have a 2080Ti/9700K, Ray tracing is not a big deal. Ive played Control/Metro/Tomb Raider and I would take Assasins Creed Odysse/The Wicther 3 graphics any day. Most of the time I even turn off Ray Tracing to get a better framerate. For me things at 100 FPS look way better. I still think Framerate is King. So far, Im not impressed. I would trade Control w Ray Tracing for the remake of RE2 in a second. Please dont believe the marketing hype.
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PEOPLE PLEASE READ: -----
I have a 2080Ti/9700K, Ray tracing is not a big deal. Ive played Control/Metro/Tomb Raider and I would take Assasins Creed Odysse/The Wicther 3 graphics any day. Most of the time I even turn off Ray Tracing to get a better framerate. For me things at 100 FPS look way better. I still think Framerate is King. So far, Im not impressed. I would trade Control w Ray Tracing for the remake of RE2 in a second. Please dont believe the marketing hype.
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cdurkinz
Sometimes I feel like I must be the only one doing this, but I do this crazy thing where I sell my old GPU when I go to upgrade. So I sold my 1080ti for $600, bought the $999 2080ti EVGA Black, which had no tax from their site and free shipping, and came with three triple a games. Threw a block on it and boom, good to go. Upgraded for $400, though with three free $60 games it was really $220. My 2080ti performs like a stock $1600 lightning z btw. Buy smart people.
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Sometimes I feel like I must be the only one doing this, but I do this crazy thing where I sell my old GPU when I go to upgrade. So I sold my 1080ti for $600, bought the $999 2080ti EVGA Black, which had no tax from their site and free shipping, and came with three triple a games. Threw a block on it and boom, good to go. Upgraded for $400, though with three free $60 games it was really $220. My 2080ti performs like a stock $1600 lightning z btw. Buy smart people.
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Hantzley
No one is bringing up the fact that RTX isn-t RDNA 2. 0. It isn-t the standard moving forward for next-gen consoles or Ray Tracing in general. Does anybody really think these first gen cards will last at least three years? News flash: they won-t.
I-m waiting patiently for RDNA 2. 0 to set the performance crown for ray tracing. As a content professional, I love CUDA but RTX can wait.
Paying $1200 for a compromise doesn-t meet customer expectations
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No one is bringing up the fact that RTX isn-t RDNA 2. 0. It isn-t the standard moving forward for next-gen consoles or Ray Tracing in general. Does anybody really think these first gen cards will last at least three years? News flash: they won-t.
I-m waiting patiently for RDNA 2. 0 to set the performance crown for ray tracing. As a content professional, I love CUDA but RTX can wait.
Paying $1200 for a compromise doesn-t meet customer expectations
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Turboslang
Killer app.
One app!
Its easy to implement they say.
REALLY, where are all those indie games with RT!
When they announced RTX i was like hell yeah, games like minecraft will be great for it since Tomb Raider sucks ass with it.
in tearms of cost of hardware and fps but nooo.
also why no one is talking ray tracing on non rtx cards. you even get ray tracing with -passable- performance on a rx 580
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Killer app.
One app!
Its easy to implement they say.
REALLY, where are all those indie games with RT!
When they announced RTX i was like hell yeah, games like minecraft will be great for it since Tomb Raider sucks ass with it.
in tearms of cost of hardware and fps but nooo.
also why no one is talking ray tracing on non rtx cards. you even get ray tracing with -passable- performance on a rx 580
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