Why didn't Vichy France join the Axis?
video description
#1 Petain didn't believe that France was ready to join the conflict (WW2) on either side.
#2 Petain enjoyed international recognition as the legitimate ruler of France (with some exceptions, and joining the war would see this revoked by some. Also, the French people did not have to pick a side (as both anti-German and anti-British sentiments were strong.
#3 The axis didn't want France to join: Germany didn't want military liability to help the French in Africa; Italy was eyeing up French territory and having France on its side would have prevented that; Japan wanted French colonies in Indochina for itself.
Date: 2023-02-18
Related videos
Comments and reviews: 14
Zircillius
Great vid but I think HM overestimates French resentment of the Brits and underestimates their hatred of the Germans. There were very few French who would've been willing to fight for the Nazis, even after the British attack on their fleet (which any reasonable person understood was necessary, as their battleships were about to become major German assets. While allying with the nation that you'd just been fighting was common practice in the 18th and 19th centuries, the unprecedented carnage of WWI changed that. The deep loathing for the Hun that festered in France during the Great War had barely subsided by 1940. Also, no nation is gonna want to help the country that just annexed half their territory and capital and turned their democracy into a dictatorship. Only way they would've fought for the Nazis would've been at gun point.
reply
Great vid but I think HM overestimates French resentment of the Brits and underestimates their hatred of the Germans. There were very few French who would've been willing to fight for the Nazis, even after the British attack on their fleet (which any reasonable person understood was necessary, as their battleships were about to become major German assets. While allying with the nation that you'd just been fighting was common practice in the 18th and 19th centuries, the unprecedented carnage of WWI changed that. The deep loathing for the Hun that festered in France during the Great War had barely subsided by 1940. Also, no nation is gonna want to help the country that just annexed half their territory and capital and turned their democracy into a dictatorship. Only way they would've fought for the Nazis would've been at gun point.
reply
DavidB5501
I don't think it is correct to say (around 2: 20 ) that the Vichy regime ended with the German occupation of southern France in late 1942. The Vichy regime remained nominally in power throughout France until the liberation in 1944. Vichy French forces resisted Allied invasions in several French colonies, notably in North Africa and Madagascar.
As to the destruction of the French fleet, Britain gave the French commanders an ultimatum with several options: join Britain, sail under escort to a neutral port (e. g. the USA at that time, or scuttle the fleet. The French replied, in effect 'don't worry, we've agreed with Germany that we can keep the fleet', which the British naturally didn't think was good enough, as it relied on Britain trusting both France and Germany!
reply
I don't think it is correct to say (around 2: 20 ) that the Vichy regime ended with the German occupation of southern France in late 1942. The Vichy regime remained nominally in power throughout France until the liberation in 1944. Vichy French forces resisted Allied invasions in several French colonies, notably in North Africa and Madagascar.
As to the destruction of the French fleet, Britain gave the French commanders an ultimatum with several options: join Britain, sail under escort to a neutral port (e. g. the USA at that time, or scuttle the fleet. The French replied, in effect 'don't worry, we've agreed with Germany that we can keep the fleet', which the British naturally didn't think was good enough, as it relied on Britain trusting both France and Germany!
reply
Scott
iow, frogs chose neither side, whether from cowardly arrogant pride, or from arrogantly cowardly fear, is irrelevant to frogs frogging so froggishly, as only frogs _can_ frog.
from 54BC thru today, have frogs continually rationalized their lack of spine just as you relate herein.
which brings me to how very nice were your 3 min tapdancing circles all around, in order to stay faaaar away from mentioning or hinting, such _facts_ of history, as well as of frog cowardices myriad, and their abysmally imbecilic s-t-u-oooooopidities therein.
finally;
frogs caved under pressure, cuz that's what frogs do, lol.
reply
iow, frogs chose neither side, whether from cowardly arrogant pride, or from arrogantly cowardly fear, is irrelevant to frogs frogging so froggishly, as only frogs _can_ frog.
from 54BC thru today, have frogs continually rationalized their lack of spine just as you relate herein.
which brings me to how very nice were your 3 min tapdancing circles all around, in order to stay faaaar away from mentioning or hinting, such _facts_ of history, as well as of frog cowardices myriad, and their abysmally imbecilic s-t-u-oooooopidities therein.
finally;
frogs caved under pressure, cuz that's what frogs do, lol.
reply
Tony
Vichy France never joined the Axis but fought (with very limited means because of the terms of the Armistice) any force violating France's Empire sovereignty.
Against the Commonwealth and Free France in Syria, against the Commonwealth and the US in North Africa, against the Germans in the naval base of Toulon when Germany invaded the Free Zone in 42 (operation Anton, and against the Japanese when they invaded Japan. Plenty of errors in the video but yes, despite being a collaborative regime, Vichy France was never part of the Axis.
Typo Edit: when they invaded 'Indochina'.
reply
Vichy France never joined the Axis but fought (with very limited means because of the terms of the Armistice) any force violating France's Empire sovereignty.
Against the Commonwealth and Free France in Syria, against the Commonwealth and the US in North Africa, against the Germans in the naval base of Toulon when Germany invaded the Free Zone in 42 (operation Anton, and against the Japanese when they invaded Japan. Plenty of errors in the video but yes, despite being a collaborative regime, Vichy France was never part of the Axis.
Typo Edit: when they invaded 'Indochina'.
reply
Matthew
Love Canada's Bite me.
Also, it is longstanding British naval policy to not allow a powerful neutral country's fleet to be used against them when that country is invaded or being threatened by a hostile mainland European power. This is why the British bombarded Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars and seized the neutral Danish fleet to prevent Napoleon from replacing his own losses after Trafalgar, after it appeared Denmark was either going to be invaded by France or join their side.
reply
Love Canada's Bite me.
Also, it is longstanding British naval policy to not allow a powerful neutral country's fleet to be used against them when that country is invaded or being threatened by a hostile mainland European power. This is why the British bombarded Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars and seized the neutral Danish fleet to prevent Napoleon from replacing his own losses after Trafalgar, after it appeared Denmark was either going to be invaded by France or join their side.
reply
Braeden
One part of history that is almost never taught in America is how our first land invasion on the European front was into a neutral nation (Algeria) and how our first combat was against former allies (the French. If it's mentioned at all it glosses over who we were fighting. Also no mentions of the invasion into southern France or French collaboration.
For Americans, these things are just a blank spot. We were always fighting Nazis and the French were all La Resistance.
reply
One part of history that is almost never taught in America is how our first land invasion on the European front was into a neutral nation (Algeria) and how our first combat was against former allies (the French. If it's mentioned at all it glosses over who we were fighting. Also no mentions of the invasion into southern France or French collaboration.
For Americans, these things are just a blank spot. We were always fighting Nazis and the French were all La Resistance.
reply
TheSpector
Vichy France did not cease to exist in 1942. The Germans invaded, yes, but it maintained similar limited control over all of France as it did before only in the German occupied zone. Its institutions remained largely intact, just embodied by a new man, named Laval. It only really came out of existance in 1944. I made this mistake in a presentation at university once to think that it lasted until 1942. The professor made sure, I'd never forget: )
reply
Vichy France did not cease to exist in 1942. The Germans invaded, yes, but it maintained similar limited control over all of France as it did before only in the German occupied zone. Its institutions remained largely intact, just embodied by a new man, named Laval. It only really came out of existance in 1944. I made this mistake in a presentation at university once to think that it lasted until 1942. The professor made sure, I'd never forget: )
reply
ALuke
I always wondered how France really earned the reputation of cheese eating surrender monkeys. They got steamrollered by superior tech and strategy, which doesn't strictly count as cowardice or surrender in my eyes. But now watching this, I can see where that reputation was earned (if still somewhat unfairly. It's not their fault, and I don't blame them, the Vichy government certainly seemed to be between a rock and a hard place.
reply
I always wondered how France really earned the reputation of cheese eating surrender monkeys. They got steamrollered by superior tech and strategy, which doesn't strictly count as cowardice or surrender in my eyes. But now watching this, I can see where that reputation was earned (if still somewhat unfairly. It's not their fault, and I don't blame them, the Vichy government certainly seemed to be between a rock and a hard place.
reply
education
As a Norwegian, I have to say the French make no sense, an at least not during WW2. My grandfather, a captain sharing his sad faith with other allied, cut their food rations and extras received brotherly sharing - saving lives of US officers - only to later discover the French they fed did not belong to humans as that kind of people took their shares of those in death hunger while at the same time having loads of supply.
reply
As a Norwegian, I have to say the French make no sense, an at least not during WW2. My grandfather, a captain sharing his sad faith with other allied, cut their food rations and extras received brotherly sharing - saving lives of US officers - only to later discover the French they fed did not belong to humans as that kind of people took their shares of those in death hunger while at the same time having loads of supply.
reply
Nasafalkas
I remember reading a biography about a group of Australian soldiers who fought the French in North Africa, and then the Japanese in Papua New Guinea. Apparently the French troops they faced were not very good, and although they are described as Vichy French in the book, based on what you're saying, I wonder whether they might have been colonial troops, rather than those under the Vichy government.
reply
I remember reading a biography about a group of Australian soldiers who fought the French in North Africa, and then the Japanese in Papua New Guinea. Apparently the French troops they faced were not very good, and although they are described as Vichy French in the book, based on what you're saying, I wonder whether they might have been colonial troops, rather than those under the Vichy government.
reply
Dr.
Visited Vichy 15 years ago out of curiosity. It's a town that pretends it was never the capital of a vassal state - no plaques or mentions of 1940-44 anywhere, & the tourist information centre had zero suggestions as to which buildings had been used during that period.
And my car got drenched in a tsunami of bird poo, but that was probably just coincidence
reply
Visited Vichy 15 years ago out of curiosity. It's a town that pretends it was never the capital of a vassal state - no plaques or mentions of 1940-44 anywhere, & the tourist information centre had zero suggestions as to which buildings had been used during that period.
And my car got drenched in a tsunami of bird poo, but that was probably just coincidence
reply
Krzysztof
0: 25 - the newspaper front page incorrectly states here that after France's defeat UK had no allies. That is not true. At that point UK's only ally was Poland. Polish government existed (although in exile, as the Polish soil was occupied at the time by Soviets and Germans) and later even Polish army was formed to help the Brits fight the Germans.
reply
0: 25 - the newspaper front page incorrectly states here that after France's defeat UK had no allies. That is not true. At that point UK's only ally was Poland. Polish government existed (although in exile, as the Polish soil was occupied at the time by Soviets and Germans) and later even Polish army was formed to help the Brits fight the Germans.
reply
Carl
2: 14 Technically Vichy France still nominally existed as a sovereign government after 1942, but it had no actual authority after that point.
Also the Axis didn t occupy Vichy France to stop it from picking a side. It was because Britain and America invaded French North Africa and the Vichy Armistice Army proved itself completely ineffectual.
reply
2: 14 Technically Vichy France still nominally existed as a sovereign government after 1942, but it had no actual authority after that point.
Also the Axis didn t occupy Vichy France to stop it from picking a side. It was because Britain and America invaded French North Africa and the Vichy Armistice Army proved itself completely ineffectual.
reply
New
Ngl didn't know that Vichy France ended before the war ended. I knew that it existed, some stuff about its status (but not as much as this video provided me; thanks HM, but I guess it never really got discussed when people talked about Operation Overlord and stuff, so yeah lol. Just had it disconnected from the rest of my WWII knowledge Ig lol
reply
Ngl didn't know that Vichy France ended before the war ended. I knew that it existed, some stuff about its status (but not as much as this video provided me; thanks HM, but I guess it never really got discussed when people talked about Operation Overlord and stuff, so yeah lol. Just had it disconnected from the rest of my WWII knowledge Ig lol
reply
Add a review, comment
Other channel videos
