What are Messiaen's Modes of Limited Transposition? - Music Theory
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Date: 2022-03-28
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Comments and reviews: 10
Jan
But what ARE these modes? I feel a bit dissatisfied that the answer is given in terms of just listing the modes, because I can feel the presence of a mathematical construction rule that dictates how you obtain these modes and that these modes are also the only possible modes following these rules. I suspect it is something like 12 is 12 x 1, 6 x 2, 4 x 3, 3 x 4, 2 x 6, 1 x 12. 12 x 1 is the chromatic scale. 6 x 2 leads to 1 new mode, the whole tone scale. Then at 4 x 3 I get a bit lost. I can see that 1 + 2 is 1 new mode and that this same mode also covers 2 + 1 because if you transpose the scale 1 semitones you-d get the same results with 1 + 2 that you would get if not transposing and doing 2 + 1 . But at that point I get stuck, because I think, why was 4 groups of just 2 notes skipped? E.g. if you take the notes C, Eb, F# , A , C and treat this as 4 groups of just 1 interval of 3 semitones? Was this skipped because it has too few notes in it to act as a scale or is it too trivial or-?
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But what ARE these modes? I feel a bit dissatisfied that the answer is given in terms of just listing the modes, because I can feel the presence of a mathematical construction rule that dictates how you obtain these modes and that these modes are also the only possible modes following these rules. I suspect it is something like 12 is 12 x 1, 6 x 2, 4 x 3, 3 x 4, 2 x 6, 1 x 12. 12 x 1 is the chromatic scale. 6 x 2 leads to 1 new mode, the whole tone scale. Then at 4 x 3 I get a bit lost. I can see that 1 + 2 is 1 new mode and that this same mode also covers 2 + 1 because if you transpose the scale 1 semitones you-d get the same results with 1 + 2 that you would get if not transposing and doing 2 + 1 . But at that point I get stuck, because I think, why was 4 groups of just 2 notes skipped? E.g. if you take the notes C, Eb, F# , A , C and treat this as 4 groups of just 1 interval of 3 semitones? Was this skipped because it has too few notes in it to act as a scale or is it too trivial or-?
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Martin
Interesting and thank you. I had worked out a few of these 'modes' for myself. Now I discover Messiaen had worked out a comprehensive set of modes (Now I wonder why I had not noticed - I shall listen out for this system in the future). I think some other composers had been doing this before. Aside from Debussy, I am thinking of Scriabin, Liszt and a few others.
The one aspect you might have emphasised a bit more is the 'democratic' nature of these modes, which prevent them settling into diatonic harmony.
Incidentally, shouldn't the chromatic scale also be a mode in this system? Or did Messiaen want to avoid this?
reply
Interesting and thank you. I had worked out a few of these 'modes' for myself. Now I discover Messiaen had worked out a comprehensive set of modes (Now I wonder why I had not noticed - I shall listen out for this system in the future). I think some other composers had been doing this before. Aside from Debussy, I am thinking of Scriabin, Liszt and a few others.
The one aspect you might have emphasised a bit more is the 'democratic' nature of these modes, which prevent them settling into diatonic harmony.
Incidentally, shouldn't the chromatic scale also be a mode in this system? Or did Messiaen want to avoid this?
reply
Stephen
Hi Gareth,
If we think of modal music (those Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Lochrian modes used in jazz) - I think of Miles Davis and -Kind of Blue-. He harmonised modes using chords of 4ths. The mode was apparent because of the root of the mode was in the bass. He also emphasised the characteristic note of each mode. My question is - what harmonies go with Messiaen's modes? In a standard western diatonic major scale we build chords using 1, 3, 5. if we dis that on Messiaen's modes of limited transposition we'd get some very odd sounds ? so - please, a video on Messiaen's harmony?
reply
Hi Gareth,
If we think of modal music (those Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Lochrian modes used in jazz) - I think of Miles Davis and -Kind of Blue-. He harmonised modes using chords of 4ths. The mode was apparent because of the root of the mode was in the bass. He also emphasised the characteristic note of each mode. My question is - what harmonies go with Messiaen's modes? In a standard western diatonic major scale we build chords using 1, 3, 5. if we dis that on Messiaen's modes of limited transposition we'd get some very odd sounds ? so - please, a video on Messiaen's harmony?
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wayne
I'm very confused what the Messiaen Modes are. They seem like some type of a hybrid scale that Olivier Messiaen made up? The main question I have is how do you take a scale or mode and -group notes-, I'm not sure what Considers these notes as a group but I would like to know what is determining that certain notes are a group. Since there are NO rests or breaks between the grouping of notes how would anywhere know that its grouped notes in 2s or 4s?
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I'm very confused what the Messiaen Modes are. They seem like some type of a hybrid scale that Olivier Messiaen made up? The main question I have is how do you take a scale or mode and -group notes-, I'm not sure what Considers these notes as a group but I would like to know what is determining that certain notes are a group. Since there are NO rests or breaks between the grouping of notes how would anywhere know that its grouped notes in 2s or 4s?
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Ken
Most of these modes are very familiar to jazzers like myself, but I think we use them more in improvisation rather than in composing songs, if such a distinction can be made. Improvisations can fly above the chord changes, I think, but to write a song you need to tie the melody to the underlying harmony, and this constraint makes it hard for both the songwriter and her audience to make sense of these modes. Comments invited.
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Most of these modes are very familiar to jazzers like myself, but I think we use them more in improvisation rather than in composing songs, if such a distinction can be made. Improvisations can fly above the chord changes, I think, but to write a song you need to tie the melody to the underlying harmony, and this constraint makes it hard for both the songwriter and her audience to make sense of these modes. Comments invited.
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Michael
As a wannabe composer who really digs Messiaen, I appreciate you making this. I've done a bunch of jazz harmony but haven't really branched much into the more experimental stuff that the modern classical guys get into. This is a very thorough explanation that normally I would need to purchase a $40 textbook to get. I would have liked a practical application example though, perhaps from Messiaen himself.
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As a wannabe composer who really digs Messiaen, I appreciate you making this. I've done a bunch of jazz harmony but haven't really branched much into the more experimental stuff that the modern classical guys get into. This is a very thorough explanation that normally I would need to purchase a $40 textbook to get. I would have liked a practical application example though, perhaps from Messiaen himself.
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education
Hi Gareth , clearly explained as usual . It will be interesting to hear the harmonic possibilities these give . Composers seem to obsessed with organising - they think differently , perhaps more like architects . I think a combination of strict organising of notes and using our ears more, to hear what they are saying to us instinctively can work well . Thank you again for sharing your lessons .
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Hi Gareth , clearly explained as usual . It will be interesting to hear the harmonic possibilities these give . Composers seem to obsessed with organising - they think differently , perhaps more like architects . I think a combination of strict organising of notes and using our ears more, to hear what they are saying to us instinctively can work well . Thank you again for sharing your lessons .
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Willem
What i struggle with is the applicability. Even Messiaen himself didnt use all of them much, mostly the second. Its one thing to do math on the distribution of notes in the chromatic scale, but to create beauty with the result is a different matter entirely. Maybe you could show by example how to use them. Without that, its just quirky theory-.
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What i struggle with is the applicability. Even Messiaen himself didnt use all of them much, mostly the second. Its one thing to do math on the distribution of notes in the chromatic scale, but to create beauty with the result is a different matter entirely. Maybe you could show by example how to use them. Without that, its just quirky theory-.
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Paulo
Is there a notion of functional harmony when using these modes? We'd probably need to consider chords VIII or IX for some of them, but still, can we define something like dominant chords, progressions, cadences in some meaningful (or at least not entirely arbitrary) way for these modes?
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Is there a notion of functional harmony when using these modes? We'd probably need to consider chords VIII or IX for some of them, but still, can we define something like dominant chords, progressions, cadences in some meaningful (or at least not entirely arbitrary) way for these modes?
reply
Mark
I sang a piece at a choir festival many years ago, and was interested to see the use of a scale where both F and B were -sharp-, i.e. had a tendency to move up. I thought that it was inventive of the composer, but now suspect that they were just using Messian's 5th mode.
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I sang a piece at a choir festival many years ago, and was interested to see the use of a scale where both F and B were -sharp-, i.e. had a tendency to move up. I thought that it was inventive of the composer, but now suspect that they were just using Messian's 5th mode.
reply
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