What Makes a Great Metroidvania?
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Date: 2023-12-10
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Comments and reviews: 30
-robertadamsx2
There have been 3 games that I've played that rise high above any game I have ever played. The first one is Cave Story, the second is the Mother series (I'm counting the whole series as one thing. I never play them separately, and the third being the most recent, Hollow Knight. Never have I played games this enchanting, full of wonder and potential, beautiful music, appealing visuals, amazing story, splendid gameplay, and everything to make a game great. When I got Cave Story, that was the point my skill in platformers starting increasing rapidly. Especially after Beating Ballos. That was in 5th grade. I now have Regional records from NES Remix 3ds, and beat Cave Story on hard mode. My best feats to date. Earthbound was just lightning in a bottle. It gave me a better appreciation on life, and further tightened my grip on my childhood. Just like ponyboy from the outsiders, I'll stay gold. Hollow Knight is the best damn medroidvania I've ever seen and played. So much to do and find. There so much extra stuff that you can beat the game with only 8% completion. I spent hours straight playing this game. I absolutely love it's art style. It's both simplistic, yet detailed. In legend of Zelda games, you have to find heart pieces, yet finding them is way to time consuming. In Hollow Knight, you can go find grubs. They are easier to find, but still fairly difficult. Some are really hidden, and it's fixed with a map showing their locations if you beat a certain boss. I spent my time looking in every nook and cranny not so I can find things necessary, but because I wanted to explore. No other game ever gave me this wonder and curiosity. It's a whole world to explore. And you don't feel like missing out on anything. Once you get a new item, it just adds more things that you couldn't do. Not because you need it, but because it feels like a natural discovery that you are gifted with for exploring. And the lore, amazing. So many secrets to uncover, or ones left to theorize. Never stop being curious in this world, because that is what let's us move forward.
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There have been 3 games that I've played that rise high above any game I have ever played. The first one is Cave Story, the second is the Mother series (I'm counting the whole series as one thing. I never play them separately, and the third being the most recent, Hollow Knight. Never have I played games this enchanting, full of wonder and potential, beautiful music, appealing visuals, amazing story, splendid gameplay, and everything to make a game great. When I got Cave Story, that was the point my skill in platformers starting increasing rapidly. Especially after Beating Ballos. That was in 5th grade. I now have Regional records from NES Remix 3ds, and beat Cave Story on hard mode. My best feats to date. Earthbound was just lightning in a bottle. It gave me a better appreciation on life, and further tightened my grip on my childhood. Just like ponyboy from the outsiders, I'll stay gold. Hollow Knight is the best damn medroidvania I've ever seen and played. So much to do and find. There so much extra stuff that you can beat the game with only 8% completion. I spent hours straight playing this game. I absolutely love it's art style. It's both simplistic, yet detailed. In legend of Zelda games, you have to find heart pieces, yet finding them is way to time consuming. In Hollow Knight, you can go find grubs. They are easier to find, but still fairly difficult. Some are really hidden, and it's fixed with a map showing their locations if you beat a certain boss. I spent my time looking in every nook and cranny not so I can find things necessary, but because I wanted to explore. No other game ever gave me this wonder and curiosity. It's a whole world to explore. And you don't feel like missing out on anything. Once you get a new item, it just adds more things that you couldn't do. Not because you need it, but because it feels like a natural discovery that you are gifted with for exploring. And the lore, amazing. So many secrets to uncover, or ones left to theorize. Never stop being curious in this world, because that is what let's us move forward.
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-Manas-co8wl
I just finished the vid, tf did this guy even mention Rogue Legacy let alone Dark Souls, does he even know what Metroidvania is? He's including all sorts of Platformers and RougeLites into this genre. According to this logic just about everything is Metroidvania. I never got how angry people got over RougeLikes vs RogueLites, it's just a genre tag, but by god do I now understand now that my favorite genre is under such a targeted mess
In order for a game to be Metroidvania it needs:
a) An eye for treasure hunting that requires item/gear gates (barriers) absolutely 100% necessary for game/story progression (rather than optional power ups or collectibles) that is independent of player's combat skill or level grinding. This is the most important asset of Metroidvania that is severely overlooked
b) A dungeon that is mostly if not entirely interconnected that expands across the whole game world or at least its underworld. This excludes titles like Zelda where all the dungeons are largely separate
c) A good deal of platforming independent of combat. That is you need some virtual acrobatic skills that ties in very well with a) in terms of exploring the enviroment. This excludes all the top down perspective games.
And no, a sense of exploration is not part of this. Just because you have a traversible open world doesn't mean it's a Metroidvania. Not all 2D open world platformers are Metroidvanias either. I mean what AAA game _doesn't_ have an open world at this point? Things like graphic styles or ambience doesn't matter in the slightest. Stop misunderstanding the meaning of storytelling in Metroidvania, it's not about good visuals or thematic presentation, it's about progression that ties in with the gameplay itself.
Man this vid and most of its comment just rubs me seriously the wrong way.
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I just finished the vid, tf did this guy even mention Rogue Legacy let alone Dark Souls, does he even know what Metroidvania is? He's including all sorts of Platformers and RougeLites into this genre. According to this logic just about everything is Metroidvania. I never got how angry people got over RougeLikes vs RogueLites, it's just a genre tag, but by god do I now understand now that my favorite genre is under such a targeted mess
In order for a game to be Metroidvania it needs:
a) An eye for treasure hunting that requires item/gear gates (barriers) absolutely 100% necessary for game/story progression (rather than optional power ups or collectibles) that is independent of player's combat skill or level grinding. This is the most important asset of Metroidvania that is severely overlooked
b) A dungeon that is mostly if not entirely interconnected that expands across the whole game world or at least its underworld. This excludes titles like Zelda where all the dungeons are largely separate
c) A good deal of platforming independent of combat. That is you need some virtual acrobatic skills that ties in very well with a) in terms of exploring the enviroment. This excludes all the top down perspective games.
And no, a sense of exploration is not part of this. Just because you have a traversible open world doesn't mean it's a Metroidvania. Not all 2D open world platformers are Metroidvanias either. I mean what AAA game _doesn't_ have an open world at this point? Things like graphic styles or ambience doesn't matter in the slightest. Stop misunderstanding the meaning of storytelling in Metroidvania, it's not about good visuals or thematic presentation, it's about progression that ties in with the gameplay itself.
Man this vid and most of its comment just rubs me seriously the wrong way.
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-TheGodofweak
I really didn't like Dead Cells as much as I wanted to. Hollow knight was awesome but then getting to Dead Cells everyone was hyping it and telling me I'd love it, but then I just don't really see the point? Whats the point in having kinda -procedurally generated- levels if bits and pieces are always going to be slapped together? You could argue its for variety on repeat runs but then instead of a well designed, consistent experience the whole thing is a mess of random inconsistencies tied loosely with familiarity so instead of the cool feeling I get with good metroidvania's, when exploring I just got bored looking for the end of these vacuous mario maker levels that look like they were designed by children. Add on the rng of the game, which can make or break your runs and couple with terrible enemy AI that they needed to bandaid with crazy attacks and damage just to create an illusion of difficulty was so dumb. It feels like such a lazy game, like rng was used as padding. It didn't feel good to win because it didn't take skill.
And thats why I wouldn't call it a metroidvania. It item gates, but the fundamental, core values of the game's design doesn't enter the same genre as well designed metroidvanias
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I really didn't like Dead Cells as much as I wanted to. Hollow knight was awesome but then getting to Dead Cells everyone was hyping it and telling me I'd love it, but then I just don't really see the point? Whats the point in having kinda -procedurally generated- levels if bits and pieces are always going to be slapped together? You could argue its for variety on repeat runs but then instead of a well designed, consistent experience the whole thing is a mess of random inconsistencies tied loosely with familiarity so instead of the cool feeling I get with good metroidvania's, when exploring I just got bored looking for the end of these vacuous mario maker levels that look like they were designed by children. Add on the rng of the game, which can make or break your runs and couple with terrible enemy AI that they needed to bandaid with crazy attacks and damage just to create an illusion of difficulty was so dumb. It feels like such a lazy game, like rng was used as padding. It didn't feel good to win because it didn't take skill.
And thats why I wouldn't call it a metroidvania. It item gates, but the fundamental, core values of the game's design doesn't enter the same genre as well designed metroidvanias
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-rkotlas
Dead Cells, Rogue Legacy, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls are not Metroidvanias. The first two are rogue-likes, the latter two are souls-likes. The first two have some Metroidvania elements but are clearly rogue-likes at their core. Souls-like games have a closer genetic relationship to Metroidvania as a genre but are distinct in a number of ways, and collapsing them confuses what makes each genre interesting and appealing.
And Metroidvania is not a -mashup of Metroid and Castlevania-. According to Jeremy Parish, who popularized the term, it was coined by Scott Sharkey to characterize Koji Igarashi's Castlevania games, also known as -Igavanias-, in contrast to the earlier level-based linear entries in the series. As Parish points out, Iga's design philosophy was inspired by Zelda, especially Zelda 2, rather than Metroid, and this fact is reflected in his games, which are more Zelda-like than Metroid-like. (See Parish's article on -The Metroidvania Lie-)
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Dead Cells, Rogue Legacy, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls are not Metroidvanias. The first two are rogue-likes, the latter two are souls-likes. The first two have some Metroidvania elements but are clearly rogue-likes at their core. Souls-like games have a closer genetic relationship to Metroidvania as a genre but are distinct in a number of ways, and collapsing them confuses what makes each genre interesting and appealing.
And Metroidvania is not a -mashup of Metroid and Castlevania-. According to Jeremy Parish, who popularized the term, it was coined by Scott Sharkey to characterize Koji Igarashi's Castlevania games, also known as -Igavanias-, in contrast to the earlier level-based linear entries in the series. As Parish points out, Iga's design philosophy was inspired by Zelda, especially Zelda 2, rather than Metroid, and this fact is reflected in his games, which are more Zelda-like than Metroid-like. (See Parish's article on -The Metroidvania Lie-)
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-zayedgaming451
What makes a great Metroidvania? Tell us where to go it's simple: )
I played Hollow Knight for about 2 hours not knowing where to go, sometimes i just fight bosses that i think i shouldn't fight due to their size or their abilites, I really enjoyed Hollow knight mechanics and gameplay but the random exploring is what killed the game for me, I really dont like spending so much time exploring the BIG world, cause hollow knight world is reaaaaaly BIIG, i just keep moving right only to find tons of rooms and passages and paths and everything, and sometimes i feel that im going the right way but clearly im not at all, and then i just go back and go left this time only to find MILLIONS OF PATHS XD, i dont even know what to say about this game anymore, i hope that metroidvania games tells you where to go in the future
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What makes a great Metroidvania? Tell us where to go it's simple: )
I played Hollow Knight for about 2 hours not knowing where to go, sometimes i just fight bosses that i think i shouldn't fight due to their size or their abilites, I really enjoyed Hollow knight mechanics and gameplay but the random exploring is what killed the game for me, I really dont like spending so much time exploring the BIG world, cause hollow knight world is reaaaaaly BIIG, i just keep moving right only to find tons of rooms and passages and paths and everything, and sometimes i feel that im going the right way but clearly im not at all, and then i just go back and go left this time only to find MILLIONS OF PATHS XD, i dont even know what to say about this game anymore, i hope that metroidvania games tells you where to go in the future
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-Brunoki22
Humm, I don't reckon there would be much of a way to tell a story in a procedurally generated game, unless the developer deliberately choose bits and pieces to glue together when the world is generated (y'know, as they normally do, however with the twist that when a piece of the dungeon is generated next to another specific one, the game code would let these 2 bits act in such a way that it would make sense. Imagine if Hollow Knight was rogue-like. How would you tell that the Blue Lake was what was creating the rain in the City of Tears? Unless the two rooms were somewhat connected, and the code would tell that when that happens, the rain effect would trigger. But then again, the world wouldn't be that engaging or remarkable, even if that scene were to happen, since when you die, the world is basically gone too.
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Humm, I don't reckon there would be much of a way to tell a story in a procedurally generated game, unless the developer deliberately choose bits and pieces to glue together when the world is generated (y'know, as they normally do, however with the twist that when a piece of the dungeon is generated next to another specific one, the game code would let these 2 bits act in such a way that it would make sense. Imagine if Hollow Knight was rogue-like. How would you tell that the Blue Lake was what was creating the rain in the City of Tears? Unless the two rooms were somewhat connected, and the code would tell that when that happens, the rain effect would trigger. But then again, the world wouldn't be that engaging or remarkable, even if that scene were to happen, since when you die, the world is basically gone too.
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-lynking249
thank you, i'm currently thinking about becoming a game designer and, after playing my first time trough super metroid, it clicked, -this- is what i want to do.
But i want to do it my own way.
think about the following sentence: -skill-based metroidvania-.
items don't limit your progression, skill does, items only make it easier, make you stronger and are used as a way to reward you. But, if you're skilled enough, you can beat the game with only the equipment you start with, this adds replayablity and changes the format of the genre itself.
just tell me if you think it is a good idea.
altough, up until i put it to use someone is going to do it beforehand, sadly. I still got 6 years to even finish school and think about this, i just need to know:
-is it a good idea? -
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thank you, i'm currently thinking about becoming a game designer and, after playing my first time trough super metroid, it clicked, -this- is what i want to do.
But i want to do it my own way.
think about the following sentence: -skill-based metroidvania-.
items don't limit your progression, skill does, items only make it easier, make you stronger and are used as a way to reward you. But, if you're skilled enough, you can beat the game with only the equipment you start with, this adds replayablity and changes the format of the genre itself.
just tell me if you think it is a good idea.
altough, up until i put it to use someone is going to do it beforehand, sadly. I still got 6 years to even finish school and think about this, i just need to know:
-is it a good idea? -
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-Alianger
It doesn't have to be complicated, these are sidescrolling action adventure games or platform adventures. Take Zelda 1, make it side view with more of a platform focus and there you go. Hollow Knight is more open than SM and SotN though, and some of its design I would consider more old school actually - the map system, precise platforming and the higher challenge for example.
Rogue Legacy is a roguelike hybrid, so not really the same thing. DS and Bloodborne have less of a platforming focus and being in 3D changes exploration and puzzle design, so they're also different.
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It doesn't have to be complicated, these are sidescrolling action adventure games or platform adventures. Take Zelda 1, make it side view with more of a platform focus and there you go. Hollow Knight is more open than SM and SotN though, and some of its design I would consider more old school actually - the map system, precise platforming and the higher challenge for example.
Rogue Legacy is a roguelike hybrid, so not really the same thing. DS and Bloodborne have less of a platforming focus and being in 3D changes exploration and puzzle design, so they're also different.
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-regal_7877
I just pirated Hollow Knight (Got it from a friend) and played it for a few hours. I absolutely LOVE it. And I've never played games like these before. I've mostly played 3D open world games like Far Cry 3 & 4 and Fallout 3 & 4, so this is a completely new genre for me. I was skeptical at first but Hollow Knight completely blew my mind. Needless to say, I've bought the game now. I'll gladly support good game developers who just want to make good games.
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I just pirated Hollow Knight (Got it from a friend) and played it for a few hours. I absolutely LOVE it. And I've never played games like these before. I've mostly played 3D open world games like Far Cry 3 & 4 and Fallout 3 & 4, so this is a completely new genre for me. I was skeptical at first but Hollow Knight completely blew my mind. Needless to say, I've bought the game now. I'll gladly support good game developers who just want to make good games.
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-jackhoefnagel
What I-m missing here is not just -gear gating-, but the way you replay areas when you have new skills, and especially how you have to remember what areas were once locked or otherwise inaccessible to you as a player. Getting a new skill not only means -ooh i can do new stuff now-, but through level design it becomes -ohh i think i know where i can apply this new stuff now-
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What I-m missing here is not just -gear gating-, but the way you replay areas when you have new skills, and especially how you have to remember what areas were once locked or otherwise inaccessible to you as a player. Getting a new skill not only means -ooh i can do new stuff now-, but through level design it becomes -ohh i think i know where i can apply this new stuff now-
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-c. r. bouton1842
HUGE SPOILERS FOR HOLLOW KNIGHT DO NOT READ THIS COMMENT IF YOU HAVEN'T BEAT THE GAME!
Hollow Knight's final boss (The Hollow Knight not the Radiance) was such an emotional fight just for the fact that halfway through the fight it starts stabbing itself showing that it didn't want to fight it wanted to die because the Infection was enslaving the poor creature
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HUGE SPOILERS FOR HOLLOW KNIGHT DO NOT READ THIS COMMENT IF YOU HAVEN'T BEAT THE GAME!
Hollow Knight's final boss (The Hollow Knight not the Radiance) was such an emotional fight just for the fact that halfway through the fight it starts stabbing itself showing that it didn't want to fight it wanted to die because the Infection was enslaving the poor creature
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-frogface861
The world should not only feel alive (despite being dead) but also interconnect with itself making future trips easier to navigate through. They should also have open worlds which you can return back to is why DeadCells is not technically a Metroidvania even if it draws some inspiration from them.
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The world should not only feel alive (despite being dead) but also interconnect with itself making future trips easier to navigate through. They should also have open worlds which you can return back to is why DeadCells is not technically a Metroidvania even if it draws some inspiration from them.
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-wavyi8270
Priest-like locusts.
Also, I didn-t think the Mantis Lords was a hard fight, I don-t think any of the bosses are terribly challenging as when I got there I was always prepared. The only bosses I think I really had trouble with were the False Knight (on my first save, Broken Vessel, and Nosk.
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Priest-like locusts.
Also, I didn-t think the Mantis Lords was a hard fight, I don-t think any of the bosses are terribly challenging as when I got there I was always prepared. The only bosses I think I really had trouble with were the False Knight (on my first save, Broken Vessel, and Nosk.
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-doe3879
I love Metroidvania, Symphony of the Night and Hollow Knight are some of my fav games of all time,
but I had tried and tried and could not get into any Metroid games, I want to like it or at least finish one but would never get that into it.
I love always prefer sword over guns.
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I love Metroidvania, Symphony of the Night and Hollow Knight are some of my fav games of all time,
but I had tried and tried and could not get into any Metroid games, I want to like it or at least finish one but would never get that into it.
I love always prefer sword over guns.
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-ComputerOyyy
I actually believe that the term -metroidvania- is everything you said (because it's the METROID part) plus the RPG elements (the VANIA part): lots of items to collect, levelling up, etc.
The VANIA part is what missing on most of the games mentioned.
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I actually believe that the term -metroidvania- is everything you said (because it's the METROID part) plus the RPG elements (the VANIA part): lots of items to collect, levelling up, etc.
The VANIA part is what missing on most of the games mentioned.
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-HDRookie
One thing I really liked about Metroid Prime was how the story was pretty much optional. Instead of forced cutscenes they let you piece together the story on your own with the scans and I felt that was a really cool way to talk about the lore of the world
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One thing I really liked about Metroid Prime was how the story was pretty much optional. Instead of forced cutscenes they let you piece together the story on your own with the scans and I felt that was a really cool way to talk about the lore of the world
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polygon
Dark Souls only rewards combat. It doesn't have any exploration focused power ups and and even items are mostly either dropped by enemies or bought with the currency you get from combat.
Why do people act like they know shit about game genress nowadays?
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Dark Souls only rewards combat. It doesn't have any exploration focused power ups and and even items are mostly either dropped by enemies or bought with the currency you get from combat.
Why do people act like they know shit about game genress nowadays?
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-chriswahl1337
I'm not done with Hollow Knight, been playing it lately, I've enjoyed it so far, but at the same time, I don't really fell compelled to keep playing, or I'm not excited to get back to playing it? It's kinda bugging me that I don't know why.
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I'm not done with Hollow Knight, been playing it lately, I've enjoyed it so far, but at the same time, I don't really fell compelled to keep playing, or I'm not excited to get back to playing it? It's kinda bugging me that I don't know why.
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-goldenknight6426
I liked Hollow Knight so much, it's so funny and challenging, I like that type of games so much, it reminded me of Ori and the Blind Forest, one of the best games I've ever played, and it's getting a new a season 2! Can wait to play it -
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I liked Hollow Knight so much, it's so funny and challenging, I like that type of games so much, it reminded me of Ori and the Blind Forest, one of the best games I've ever played, and it's getting a new a season 2! Can wait to play it -
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-MrSaturnMusic
I don't understand why Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells are here. They're both Rogue-lites, with some very loose Metroidvania elements(which is to say, they're side scrollers that ask you to explore, and RL has candles you can break)
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I don't understand why Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells are here. They're both Rogue-lites, with some very loose Metroidvania elements(which is to say, they're side scrollers that ask you to explore, and RL has candles you can break)
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-Denzo-df9gr
Hmmm. Tale of the world huh? I'm developing a game called Eura and it tells about the story of a nameless space hunter in an Space Station Called Eura. The name of the Hunter is given the same as the station later on.
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Hmmm. Tale of the world huh? I'm developing a game called Eura and it tells about the story of a nameless space hunter in an Space Station Called Eura. The name of the Hunter is given the same as the station later on.
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-amernice
i get triggered when ever someone compares hollow knight or dark souls to any game out there
it just falsely put those games at the same level
people who pretend to be -gamers- really need to stop doing that
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i get triggered when ever someone compares hollow knight or dark souls to any game out there
it just falsely put those games at the same level
people who pretend to be -gamers- really need to stop doing that
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-williamsmario54
Soulslike games aren't metroidvanias because you don't unlock any abilities that help you progress or access areas you couldn't with out that ability. There more like rougelites but ven still barely
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Soulslike games aren't metroidvanias because you don't unlock any abilities that help you progress or access areas you couldn't with out that ability. There more like rougelites but ven still barely
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-thomasdantas
Hollow knight and Dead Cells happen to be the most recent games I've purchased. I think both are amazing, but man, Dead Cells just has so much pick-up-and-play value. Maybe it's the Rogue-like aspect.
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Hollow knight and Dead Cells happen to be the most recent games I've purchased. I think both are amazing, but man, Dead Cells just has so much pick-up-and-play value. Maybe it's the Rogue-like aspect.
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-bbarrett726
I recently played The Messenger. At one point in the game the world opens up and goes from being a linear platformer to a Metroidvania. It's a great game, but IMO, the Metroidvania was poorly done.
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I recently played The Messenger. At one point in the game the world opens up and goes from being a linear platformer to a Metroidvania. It's a great game, but IMO, the Metroidvania was poorly done.
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-ryans. 1900
Good video, but I'm not quite sure I understand the difference between Metroidvania and -modern Metroidvania- (or even why they're called -Metroidvania- and not simply -Metroid-like- or whatever.
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Good video, but I'm not quite sure I understand the difference between Metroidvania and -modern Metroidvania- (or even why they're called -Metroidvania- and not simply -Metroid-like- or whatever.
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polygon
Umm no, Dark souls is not a metroidvania. You are generalizing too much. Then you can just argue that all games are metroidvanias. In tetris you are unlocking new levels so its a metroidvania.
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Umm no, Dark souls is not a metroidvania. You are generalizing too much. Then you can just argue that all games are metroidvanias. In tetris you are unlocking new levels so its a metroidvania.
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polygon
why people called this games metroidvania? castlevania copied metroid map system and weapon /armor upgrades. long time ago. so i don't think metroidvania should be a good name for the genre.
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why people called this games metroidvania? castlevania copied metroid map system and weapon /armor upgrades. long time ago. so i don't think metroidvania should be a good name for the genre.
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-protoWeird
No mention of Guacamelee? I wouldn't expect you to mention 'em but I also love the (super budget) Super Panda Adventures and the (relatively new, but amazing) Super Daryl Deluxe.
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No mention of Guacamelee? I wouldn't expect you to mention 'em but I also love the (super budget) Super Panda Adventures and the (relatively new, but amazing) Super Daryl Deluxe.
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-chillmadude
dont worry, I've alsays said the soulsborne series are just 3d metriodvanias
.
However Rogue Legacy isnt a metriodvania so why would you show it let alone mention it?
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dont worry, I've alsays said the soulsborne series are just 3d metriodvanias
.
However Rogue Legacy isnt a metriodvania so why would you show it let alone mention it?
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