Do you really have to 'fold' egg foams? Can't you just mix them?
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Date: 2022-07-11
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Comments and reviews: 10
Fluffy
Interesting video, but I do have a few points I think are worth considering. To be clear, I love these sorts of debunkings; some things should absolutely be tossed out as outdated methodology - in applicable circumstances (looking at you, egg tempering.
1a. I think using an electric hand mixer was an odd choice for disproving this technique. I'd prefer to have seen a side-by-side comparison of gently folding vs vigorously mixing both with a spatula. It's important to consider context when wondering how these claims came to be in the first place. This method may be the result of experimentation with identical utensils before the introduction of electric beaters.
1b. The specific mixing mechanism of an electric hand mixer (specifically the model you use here) maybe be more effective at incorporating air than other methods. Think of how a stand mixer's single whisk attachment moves vs having two beaters spinning so as to churn the material through them. Try beating equal volumes of cream to stiff peaks with a kitchenaid vs with an electric hand mixer, you'll find one will whip up faster.
2. Scale: remember that commercial kitchens use quantities of ingredients far greater than domestic houses. Some stuff simply doesn't transfer the same way. Take choux pastry, for example. For a basic home recipe, you can absolutely add the eggs all at once, but in commercial quantities, that's not gonna fly. Similarly here, simply because you can mix your foam with the rest of the batter in 20 seconds doesn't mean commercial equipment can replicate this efficiency. I'd wager that given the additional time required to combine the ingredients, this may actually make a difference at larger scales. Also, a minor reduction may not be noticeable in a makes 1 recipe, but may be quite apparent in a makes 50+ recipe.
3. Egg foam. Minor point, and De Minimus may apply here. I'd have preferred to see this test performed by creating a double recipe, and dividing the meringue into two. Because stiff peaks for one set of egg whites may be slightly more/less stable than another. It's just eliminating an extra variable, but again, probably a minor point.
Anyhow, just food for thought. I think the jury's still out in a comprehensive manner, but I'm happy to see there're more expeditious methods for home kitchens.
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Interesting video, but I do have a few points I think are worth considering. To be clear, I love these sorts of debunkings; some things should absolutely be tossed out as outdated methodology - in applicable circumstances (looking at you, egg tempering.
1a. I think using an electric hand mixer was an odd choice for disproving this technique. I'd prefer to have seen a side-by-side comparison of gently folding vs vigorously mixing both with a spatula. It's important to consider context when wondering how these claims came to be in the first place. This method may be the result of experimentation with identical utensils before the introduction of electric beaters.
1b. The specific mixing mechanism of an electric hand mixer (specifically the model you use here) maybe be more effective at incorporating air than other methods. Think of how a stand mixer's single whisk attachment moves vs having two beaters spinning so as to churn the material through them. Try beating equal volumes of cream to stiff peaks with a kitchenaid vs with an electric hand mixer, you'll find one will whip up faster.
2. Scale: remember that commercial kitchens use quantities of ingredients far greater than domestic houses. Some stuff simply doesn't transfer the same way. Take choux pastry, for example. For a basic home recipe, you can absolutely add the eggs all at once, but in commercial quantities, that's not gonna fly. Similarly here, simply because you can mix your foam with the rest of the batter in 20 seconds doesn't mean commercial equipment can replicate this efficiency. I'd wager that given the additional time required to combine the ingredients, this may actually make a difference at larger scales. Also, a minor reduction may not be noticeable in a makes 1 recipe, but may be quite apparent in a makes 50+ recipe.
3. Egg foam. Minor point, and De Minimus may apply here. I'd have preferred to see this test performed by creating a double recipe, and dividing the meringue into two. Because stiff peaks for one set of egg whites may be slightly more/less stable than another. It's just eliminating an extra variable, but again, probably a minor point.
Anyhow, just food for thought. I think the jury's still out in a comprehensive manner, but I'm happy to see there're more expeditious methods for home kitchens.
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flibbertygibbette
This is great. I've done a similar experiment with sifting ingredients together, sifted flour vs unsifted, doing wet and dry ingredients separately, and for most cakes, at least, sifting and doing wet/dry separately is unnecessary if you're using modern power mixers. I think sifting might have helped avoid lumps in the cake and perhaps add air in the past when people were still using mostly hand tools, but if you are using a hand mixer or stand mixer, it's absolutely, totally unnecessary. The power mixing will get the ingredients mixed together well, it will add plenty of air, the gluten structure will be plenty strong, and it'll break up any lumps. You might do a couple of episodes on that because it can save a lot of time and mess when making cakes.
I've found that creaming butter and sugar together for cookies is still pretty necessary, but once that's done the rest of it doesn't really matter too much. And I never sift the dry ingredients together for anything anymore. I'd be interested to see what your findings would be.
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This is great. I've done a similar experiment with sifting ingredients together, sifted flour vs unsifted, doing wet and dry ingredients separately, and for most cakes, at least, sifting and doing wet/dry separately is unnecessary if you're using modern power mixers. I think sifting might have helped avoid lumps in the cake and perhaps add air in the past when people were still using mostly hand tools, but if you are using a hand mixer or stand mixer, it's absolutely, totally unnecessary. The power mixing will get the ingredients mixed together well, it will add plenty of air, the gluten structure will be plenty strong, and it'll break up any lumps. You might do a couple of episodes on that because it can save a lot of time and mess when making cakes.
I've found that creaming butter and sugar together for cookies is still pretty necessary, but once that's done the rest of it doesn't really matter too much. And I never sift the dry ingredients together for anything anymore. I'd be interested to see what your findings would be.
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Maelacology
I believe the concept of folding is good practice. Teaching a new baker how and why to fold teaches them the value of NOT over mixing. You even mention this concept in the experiments: still being careful not to overdo it. It's much harder to overdo folding because it's slow and concise. It is SO MUCH easier to let a stand mixer go to town while you walk away, resulting in broken foams or tough gluten networks. And trust me when I say, people will walk away if you give them the chance. And most recipes you find online are written with these people in mind.
So yeah, absolutely if you are an experienced baker (and I don't mean only professional chefs, Adam absolutely counts as having experience) you can go with the electric mixer for the few seconds to incorporate foam. Someone who has the experience has a better understanding of consistency and the knowledge of what over mixing does. But if I were working with a fresh faced baker or even a child, I would start with folding.
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I believe the concept of folding is good practice. Teaching a new baker how and why to fold teaches them the value of NOT over mixing. You even mention this concept in the experiments: still being careful not to overdo it. It's much harder to overdo folding because it's slow and concise. It is SO MUCH easier to let a stand mixer go to town while you walk away, resulting in broken foams or tough gluten networks. And trust me when I say, people will walk away if you give them the chance. And most recipes you find online are written with these people in mind.
So yeah, absolutely if you are an experienced baker (and I don't mean only professional chefs, Adam absolutely counts as having experience) you can go with the electric mixer for the few seconds to incorporate foam. Someone who has the experience has a better understanding of consistency and the knowledge of what over mixing does. But if I were working with a fresh faced baker or even a child, I would start with folding.
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Sonja
I can think of one reason to fold instead of using the power tool, and that'd be if you struggle to know just when your mixture actually is homogenous. And yeah, I've had that problem in the past, as well as a chronic inability to know when it's been ten seconds or fifty seconds. Too, sometimes you don't have a need to go fast, and folding is kinda chill, you know?
But I have made my share of things like banana pudding and dirt cake and so on, where I needed to mix whipped cream into the pudding base, and heck yeah I just slapped that whipped cream around, even when it was a batch I'd made myself. And it didn't hurt a thing. (Though to be fair, both of those examples are things that definitely don't need to LOOK a specific way)
Great video!
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I can think of one reason to fold instead of using the power tool, and that'd be if you struggle to know just when your mixture actually is homogenous. And yeah, I've had that problem in the past, as well as a chronic inability to know when it's been ten seconds or fifty seconds. Too, sometimes you don't have a need to go fast, and folding is kinda chill, you know?
But I have made my share of things like banana pudding and dirt cake and so on, where I needed to mix whipped cream into the pudding base, and heck yeah I just slapped that whipped cream around, even when it was a batch I'd made myself. And it didn't hurt a thing. (Though to be fair, both of those examples are things that definitely don't need to LOOK a specific way)
Great video!
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lamemage15
I wonder if this also has to do with the stiffness/stability of the foam and the density of the other mixture?
Usually for souffle, I beat a portion of the egg white mixture into the pastry cream before folding because it will be less homogenous otherwise. Maybe this evens out to just beating the entire thing from start to finish as Adam did here.
But when I'm making a sponge cake, I usually use a medium-stiff peak meringue. Both mixtures are much more loose. It definitely feels like the foam collapses quickly when I fold them together. This might also be because I only use vinegar/lemon to stabilize as opposed to cream of tartar? Not sure about that one.
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I wonder if this also has to do with the stiffness/stability of the foam and the density of the other mixture?
Usually for souffle, I beat a portion of the egg white mixture into the pastry cream before folding because it will be less homogenous otherwise. Maybe this evens out to just beating the entire thing from start to finish as Adam did here.
But when I'm making a sponge cake, I usually use a medium-stiff peak meringue. Both mixtures are much more loose. It definitely feels like the foam collapses quickly when I fold them together. This might also be because I only use vinegar/lemon to stabilize as opposed to cream of tartar? Not sure about that one.
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Aeronwor
How different would the result be if whisking and mixing by hand?
Mixing with a motorised whisk could reintroduce any lost bubbles, while mixing with a hand whisk would need a lot of extra work to get the bubbles back in the batter. You would need to make a lot of sponge cakes, with all possibilities, from fully traditional, to just throwing ingredients into a bowl and whisking together (by hand and machine. A bit like the pizza dough video.
Or it just seems to makes sense, worked well once for a chef somewhere, who wrote it down and everyone just accepted it.
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How different would the result be if whisking and mixing by hand?
Mixing with a motorised whisk could reintroduce any lost bubbles, while mixing with a hand whisk would need a lot of extra work to get the bubbles back in the batter. You would need to make a lot of sponge cakes, with all possibilities, from fully traditional, to just throwing ingredients into a bowl and whisking together (by hand and machine. A bit like the pizza dough video.
Or it just seems to makes sense, worked well once for a chef somewhere, who wrote it down and everyone just accepted it.
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Tizona
I want to add a counterpoint. folding as a technique in cooking. is omportant. for gently incorporating a large bowl full of, say, pasta salad. the tecnique has zilch to do with deflating the eggfoam. and everything to do with both NOT damaging delicate pasta, or mashing the potaos in a potato salad, what have you, and also to not. make a huge mess, by gingerly and efficiently mixing the pan or bowl FILLED with yummy. folding is useful. even if not for merangue.
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I want to add a counterpoint. folding as a technique in cooking. is omportant. for gently incorporating a large bowl full of, say, pasta salad. the tecnique has zilch to do with deflating the eggfoam. and everything to do with both NOT damaging delicate pasta, or mashing the potaos in a potato salad, what have you, and also to not. make a huge mess, by gingerly and efficiently mixing the pan or bowl FILLED with yummy. folding is useful. even if not for merangue.
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spaceshipable
Hey Adam, I have a recipe for a chocolate cheesecake which includes whipped whites, yolk and whipped cream. I notice a distinct difference if I fold lightly or combine less carefully. Interestingly I actually find that folding a bit more aggressively yields a firmer cheesecake rather than a mousey texture and I prefer that. I wonder if it's because the cheesecake is completely uncooked. I can pass one the recipe if you are interested in experimentation!
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Hey Adam, I have a recipe for a chocolate cheesecake which includes whipped whites, yolk and whipped cream. I notice a distinct difference if I fold lightly or combine less carefully. Interestingly I actually find that folding a bit more aggressively yields a firmer cheesecake rather than a mousey texture and I prefer that. I wonder if it's because the cheesecake is completely uncooked. I can pass one the recipe if you are interested in experimentation!
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TM
You should try making the beat versions before the fold versions, as the longer the rest time the more air bubbles can collapse you ve biased the beat versions as they have less hang around time, if you still can t see the difference you may have a point but I noticed that with the beat angel food cake the top surface was lower in the middle than the sides whereas the fold version was relatively flat but maybe that was just that particular cut
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You should try making the beat versions before the fold versions, as the longer the rest time the more air bubbles can collapse you ve biased the beat versions as they have less hang around time, if you still can t see the difference you may have a point but I noticed that with the beat angel food cake the top surface was lower in the middle than the sides whereas the fold version was relatively flat but maybe that was just that particular cut
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Mrboombastic266
Ok I have my theory: maybe the reason why using beaters doesn't deflate foams is that it might actually add more air to them; we usually use the electric beater to whip up eggs and cream, and that same action might help these two ingredients to keep air inside of them when being mixed with other stuff.
It would have been interesting to see if using a spatula to violently mix the ingredients made any difference
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Ok I have my theory: maybe the reason why using beaters doesn't deflate foams is that it might actually add more air to them; we usually use the electric beater to whip up eggs and cream, and that same action might help these two ingredients to keep air inside of them when being mixed with other stuff.
It would have been interesting to see if using a spatula to violently mix the ingredients made any difference
reply
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