Time To Leave Dwm Behind - My Thoughts on Suckless DistroTube
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Date: 2022-03-30
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Comments and reviews: 10
n.
As we grow in age, we find we have less and less time to configure our computers, meticulously.
The future awaits a less painless and time consuming toil for our digital endeavors.
The primary reason the cellphones and tablets surpassed the desktop in popularity is..., because the intelligent programming made them a cinch to use.
These little devices are pretty big inside, because they are so interactive on the outside.
These modern mobile devices seems to intuitively know how to behave.
In other words, ... the desktop got left behind with its old paradigm.
The desktop did not anticipate that you wanted to go back with the option of a back button (not just backspace).
The browser and or a list of other apps that was open had no other option to get out of your way, other than move or close those programs, manually.
The desktop was left behind, because the typical desktop is a painfully tedious design.
Just cycling through apps, by comparison, is a chore.
That, is the reason a mobile operating system design like Android will always trump the outdated desktop design.
If DWM was interactive like Awesome Desktop Manager or how Fish is way more interactive in comparison to other shells, then there would be no reason to switch.
Yes, you can configure it all day, but who wants to work that hard just to get modern amenities going?
If everything works out of the box, that is the standard most people are willing to accept. The other customization details are a plus.
In a not too dissimilar context ... among the best relationship will never put people through hurdles from the outset. Okay, maybe a little hurdle, but not major ones, even though love and relationships do has its little hills.
Imagine someone who already knows what you want?
Is it no secret why Linus Torvalds use Mac He has a family.
(Personally, I don't use it, nor Windows).
Just like the commercial, -At Syms, the Educated Consumer Is Your Best -Customer,- an -efficient- window manager or desktop environment, like those mobile desktop environments, are what is happening now.
For those reasons i3 Window Manager would never make the cut. It is too tedious to be a starting point. i3 can only be a reasonable option in your settings to be configured after the basics works outside the box. That why DMW trumps i3, that's why Awesome DM trumps DWM, just like Android or any mobile environment can trump MS Windows desktop in efficiency.
Too bad Awesome DM wasn't written in a C-like programming language (not C#, yuk!..:))
By the way Microsoft Desktop Environment is and has predominantly been the most inefficient and tedious desktop environment in history.
It is horrendous and ugly inside and out. Ask yourself why do one have to use a software to eject a USB as and industry standard when it ought to be hot-swappable and ejected immediately? So inefficient.
That's why Microsoft is not cut out to lead the industry.
Not to mention a plethora of other ugliness, especially the intrusive Window's Update downtime.
Suckless missed out that not only efficient coding is Paramount, so is intelligent programming that acts like AI (Artificial Intelligence) is also key.
Users ultimately gravitate towards a program that is a cinch to use.
Finding that balance of efficient coding and sophisticated intelligent programming is the future.
reply
As we grow in age, we find we have less and less time to configure our computers, meticulously.
The future awaits a less painless and time consuming toil for our digital endeavors.
The primary reason the cellphones and tablets surpassed the desktop in popularity is..., because the intelligent programming made them a cinch to use.
These little devices are pretty big inside, because they are so interactive on the outside.
These modern mobile devices seems to intuitively know how to behave.
In other words, ... the desktop got left behind with its old paradigm.
The desktop did not anticipate that you wanted to go back with the option of a back button (not just backspace).
The browser and or a list of other apps that was open had no other option to get out of your way, other than move or close those programs, manually.
The desktop was left behind, because the typical desktop is a painfully tedious design.
Just cycling through apps, by comparison, is a chore.
That, is the reason a mobile operating system design like Android will always trump the outdated desktop design.
If DWM was interactive like Awesome Desktop Manager or how Fish is way more interactive in comparison to other shells, then there would be no reason to switch.
Yes, you can configure it all day, but who wants to work that hard just to get modern amenities going?
If everything works out of the box, that is the standard most people are willing to accept. The other customization details are a plus.
In a not too dissimilar context ... among the best relationship will never put people through hurdles from the outset. Okay, maybe a little hurdle, but not major ones, even though love and relationships do has its little hills.
Imagine someone who already knows what you want?
Is it no secret why Linus Torvalds use Mac He has a family.
(Personally, I don't use it, nor Windows).
Just like the commercial, -At Syms, the Educated Consumer Is Your Best -Customer,- an -efficient- window manager or desktop environment, like those mobile desktop environments, are what is happening now.
For those reasons i3 Window Manager would never make the cut. It is too tedious to be a starting point. i3 can only be a reasonable option in your settings to be configured after the basics works outside the box. That why DMW trumps i3, that's why Awesome DM trumps DWM, just like Android or any mobile environment can trump MS Windows desktop in efficiency.
Too bad Awesome DM wasn't written in a C-like programming language (not C#, yuk!..:))
By the way Microsoft Desktop Environment is and has predominantly been the most inefficient and tedious desktop environment in history.
It is horrendous and ugly inside and out. Ask yourself why do one have to use a software to eject a USB as and industry standard when it ought to be hot-swappable and ejected immediately? So inefficient.
That's why Microsoft is not cut out to lead the industry.
Not to mention a plethora of other ugliness, especially the intrusive Window's Update downtime.
Suckless missed out that not only efficient coding is Paramount, so is intelligent programming that acts like AI (Artificial Intelligence) is also key.
Users ultimately gravitate towards a program that is a cinch to use.
Finding that balance of efficient coding and sophisticated intelligent programming is the future.
reply
memreflect
My first tiling WM was dwm...in binary form. I had to -apt source dwm- to get things configured back when I used Debian.
dwm was cool and all, and I could do what I wanted for the most part, but at the end of the day, you don't want to recompile source code just because you want to change something, and that's why I switched to i3. It was a bit difficult to get used to a tiling WM that didn't have the master-stack concept, but it ended up working better.
I've ended up with Awesome lately, when I'm not in tmux in the Linux console, and I'm basically using it the way I used dwm, though I do only use one workspace and tend to go fullscreen/monocle with whatever I'm using, especially desktop websites as they seem to work best in landscape mode, the opposite of what most tiling WMs do. Of course, there is still limited vertical screen space, so a top/bottom split-screen layout isn't terribly useful, especially with a bookmarks toolbar, URL bar, and possibly a menu bar.
People keep mentioning bspwm, so I might check that out next, if I decide Awesome isn't for me. Or maybe I'll try getting Openbox to work the way I want...
reply
My first tiling WM was dwm...in binary form. I had to -apt source dwm- to get things configured back when I used Debian.
dwm was cool and all, and I could do what I wanted for the most part, but at the end of the day, you don't want to recompile source code just because you want to change something, and that's why I switched to i3. It was a bit difficult to get used to a tiling WM that didn't have the master-stack concept, but it ended up working better.
I've ended up with Awesome lately, when I'm not in tmux in the Linux console, and I'm basically using it the way I used dwm, though I do only use one workspace and tend to go fullscreen/monocle with whatever I'm using, especially desktop websites as they seem to work best in landscape mode, the opposite of what most tiling WMs do. Of course, there is still limited vertical screen space, so a top/bottom split-screen layout isn't terribly useful, especially with a bookmarks toolbar, URL bar, and possibly a menu bar.
People keep mentioning bspwm, so I might check that out next, if I decide Awesome isn't for me. Or maybe I'll try getting Openbox to work the way I want...
reply
Mohammad
Hi,
Nice video about dwm. I am also a minimalist regarding about window manager. I tried many minimalist WM, such a lwm, aewm, tinywm, dwm, ratpoison, swm, ... and finally I stick with evilwm. It is very small in file size and very lightweight in resources.
evilwm is nothing but a simple window manager with nice keyboard bindings. So I able to move, resize,, change virtual area witout need to use mouse at all. My typical window arrangements is a terminal window, such as urxvt or lxterminal . I run GNU screen in the terminal. So, I does not need to open many terminal windows or tabs..
To launch apps, just type the program name in ther terminal, resize and move it to side of the main terminal window.. or maximize it .. and everything is by keyboard. For web browser, I put it on other virtul are/pane and it is easy to move/switching between virtual panes/area.
I am using it for many years and not regreting using it and leave all the fancy desktop manager behind. :)
Thank you. .
reply
Hi,
Nice video about dwm. I am also a minimalist regarding about window manager. I tried many minimalist WM, such a lwm, aewm, tinywm, dwm, ratpoison, swm, ... and finally I stick with evilwm. It is very small in file size and very lightweight in resources.
evilwm is nothing but a simple window manager with nice keyboard bindings. So I able to move, resize,, change virtual area witout need to use mouse at all. My typical window arrangements is a terminal window, such as urxvt or lxterminal . I run GNU screen in the terminal. So, I does not need to open many terminal windows or tabs..
To launch apps, just type the program name in ther terminal, resize and move it to side of the main terminal window.. or maximize it .. and everything is by keyboard. For web browser, I put it on other virtul are/pane and it is easy to move/switching between virtual panes/area.
I am using it for many years and not regreting using it and leave all the fancy desktop manager behind. :)
Thank you. .
reply
Chulito
If any of you are looking for a fine distro to try, here is a suggestion. Netrunner 2019 KDE version. This is not an Ubuntu spin. This is Debian-Testing with a full-kitchen sink of apps. Today's update, brought KDE within a month of Neon. Most of the software and system stuff is about as new as you can get with Debian. Kernel however, is way back at 4.19.0-2. systemd is at 240. So unless you are a fanboy with Ubuntu, or Arch or rpm, or that one Gnome guy, then this just might be your cup of tea. wayland is 1.16. It does come with some apps that some might call bloat, however, many users may not ever get a chance to try that bloat had it not been pre-installed. I really like their update manager, gui tool. I assume other distros ( maybe Mint ) have something similar. If they release a new iso, then I would highly recommend, putting it on hardware.
reply
If any of you are looking for a fine distro to try, here is a suggestion. Netrunner 2019 KDE version. This is not an Ubuntu spin. This is Debian-Testing with a full-kitchen sink of apps. Today's update, brought KDE within a month of Neon. Most of the software and system stuff is about as new as you can get with Debian. Kernel however, is way back at 4.19.0-2. systemd is at 240. So unless you are a fanboy with Ubuntu, or Arch or rpm, or that one Gnome guy, then this just might be your cup of tea. wayland is 1.16. It does come with some apps that some might call bloat, however, many users may not ever get a chance to try that bloat had it not been pre-installed. I really like their update manager, gui tool. I assume other distros ( maybe Mint ) have something similar. If they release a new iso, then I would highly recommend, putting it on hardware.
reply
Braden
Your reasoning boils down to -I've become efficient with this thing, so I want to stop using it-, which makes no sense. If you aren't using these WMs to be efficient, then what are you using them for? I stopped using i3wm not because I wanted a challenge, but because even though I -mastered- using it, I felt it was too complex. DWM offered a much simpler environment that I could actually tweak myself in a matter of minutes, with pretty much exactly the features I needed. So I switched, and I've been on DWM ever since. The only thing DWM is lacking IMO is an elegant way to mess around with the top bar and automatically launch/relocate things. I can do both of these things with shell scripts, xsetroot and xdotool, but creating an entire desktop environment in shell script is kind of sucky.
reply
Your reasoning boils down to -I've become efficient with this thing, so I want to stop using it-, which makes no sense. If you aren't using these WMs to be efficient, then what are you using them for? I stopped using i3wm not because I wanted a challenge, but because even though I -mastered- using it, I felt it was too complex. DWM offered a much simpler environment that I could actually tweak myself in a matter of minutes, with pretty much exactly the features I needed. So I switched, and I've been on DWM ever since. The only thing DWM is lacking IMO is an elegant way to mess around with the top bar and automatically launch/relocate things. I can do both of these things with shell scripts, xsetroot and xdotool, but creating an entire desktop environment in shell script is kind of sucky.
reply
Magnus
I'm surprised you didn't even add in scrolling to your st. That's the thing I missed from it from linux mint. However I've patched my dwm less than yours - although I have edited it myself a bit too.
Also, responding to the 2000 lines of code limitation: I think that its arbitrary to an extent, but when you ask why 2000 I think the answer is really 'because they can'. It will never be missing a core feature that makes it unusable for everyone, because it is already useable as-is and they don't need to make it bigger. If some new really smart innovation in tiling window managers is made, they can add it as a patch and people who don't want it, or people who don't like that feature, need not worry about it.
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I'm surprised you didn't even add in scrolling to your st. That's the thing I missed from it from linux mint. However I've patched my dwm less than yours - although I have edited it myself a bit too.
Also, responding to the 2000 lines of code limitation: I think that its arbitrary to an extent, but when you ask why 2000 I think the answer is really 'because they can'. It will never be missing a core feature that makes it unusable for everyone, because it is already useable as-is and they don't need to make it bigger. If some new really smart innovation in tiling window managers is made, they can add it as a patch and people who don't want it, or people who don't like that feature, need not worry about it.
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Aleksy
I'm using dwm, st and other suckless utilities for more then 4 years now, they are good and work as advertised, but as a professional C programmer I have an opinion on those programs. In short: -they work-, the question is how do they work? And the answer is -barely-, those programs have a lot of bugs, error handling is non existent, a lot of code is squeezed in any given line that's why they have low line count (it's a cheating), algorithms and performance is lower then in some demo applications (compare st and libtsm's demo ;) ) etc, etc. Why do I use those programs? Nobody had written anything better and in the same simple style as them.
reply
I'm using dwm, st and other suckless utilities for more then 4 years now, they are good and work as advertised, but as a professional C programmer I have an opinion on those programs. In short: -they work-, the question is how do they work? And the answer is -barely-, those programs have a lot of bugs, error handling is non existent, a lot of code is squeezed in any given line that's why they have low line count (it's a cheating), algorithms and performance is lower then in some demo applications (compare st and libtsm's demo ;) ) etc, etc. Why do I use those programs? Nobody had written anything better and in the same simple style as them.
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Ed
I get it that you don't go along with the suckless philosophy, but they don't really ask you to. They present their philosophy and their projects for anyone to use whether or not you are a suckless convert. I think your criticism is a bit pointless. Personally I love what they do. I run st and dwm and I get a lot out of them. I don't think they make any claims about being the be-all end-all, or that you are being sinful for using non-suckless applications. It almost seems like they let you down or something. Like you're a disappointed convert. Suckless is not a religion.
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I get it that you don't go along with the suckless philosophy, but they don't really ask you to. They present their philosophy and their projects for anyone to use whether or not you are a suckless convert. I think your criticism is a bit pointless. Personally I love what they do. I run st and dwm and I get a lot out of them. I don't think they make any claims about being the be-all end-all, or that you are being sinful for using non-suckless applications. It almost seems like they let you down or something. Like you're a disappointed convert. Suckless is not a religion.
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sl-ths
as someone that knows C this code looks, from what I've seen from applying patches, bad. I get they wanted this to be under a certain LOC limit but man those horrible variable names, large functions, multiple single line declarations, and declaring variables at the start of every function (without initializing them until halfway throughout the function), for loops that should really be while loops, cramming mostly all the essential functions in the main file, and global state
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as someone that knows C this code looks, from what I've seen from applying patches, bad. I get they wanted this to be under a certain LOC limit but man those horrible variable names, large functions, multiple single line declarations, and declaring variables at the start of every function (without initializing them until halfway throughout the function), for loops that should really be while loops, cramming mostly all the essential functions in the main file, and global state
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Gabriel
suckless tools user here. I agree with your opinion on the website. I think they want to match the experience with the suckless way and I'm listening you now speak about elitism. They dont want to make something por the general public, so go to the git log. Not the smartest decission if you want to spread something. Perhaps is not the idea...
reply
suckless tools user here. I agree with your opinion on the website. I think they want to match the experience with the suckless way and I'm listening you now speak about elitism. They dont want to make something por the general public, so go to the git log. Not the smartest decission if you want to spread something. Perhaps is not the idea...
reply
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