Are the Suburbs Getting Worse
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Date: 2024-06-01
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Comments and reviews: 20
TenOrbital
My city designed suburbs to be walkable with shops in the centre of each suburb and sidewalks, paved footpaths and parks allowing shortcuts across the street network. The shops might be a small supermarket, a bakery, newsagent, doctor, takeaway etc around a carpatk. Plus an adjacent petrol station, sometimes a single-story office building.
It mostly still works well - especially in wealthier areas where restaurants and bars became typical tenants - but some of these little shopping centres weren’t viable and lost shops and the few worst ones have boarded up shopfronts. The petrol stations mostly closed as well.
A cluster of a dozen or so suburbs, about 60, 000 population, would surround a mall and a light industrial/retail/office precinct, the whole gridded with dual carriageways connecting the township to adjacent towns and freeways.
Then radial bus routes serving the town centres and express bus services connecting the various town centres. The city is starting the replace the express bus routes with light rail, which is expensive and controversial, but the city government has won several elections with light rail as its main policy.
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My city designed suburbs to be walkable with shops in the centre of each suburb and sidewalks, paved footpaths and parks allowing shortcuts across the street network. The shops might be a small supermarket, a bakery, newsagent, doctor, takeaway etc around a carpatk. Plus an adjacent petrol station, sometimes a single-story office building.
It mostly still works well - especially in wealthier areas where restaurants and bars became typical tenants - but some of these little shopping centres weren’t viable and lost shops and the few worst ones have boarded up shopfronts. The petrol stations mostly closed as well.
A cluster of a dozen or so suburbs, about 60, 000 population, would surround a mall and a light industrial/retail/office precinct, the whole gridded with dual carriageways connecting the township to adjacent towns and freeways.
Then radial bus routes serving the town centres and express bus services connecting the various town centres. The city is starting the replace the express bus routes with light rail, which is expensive and controversial, but the city government has won several elections with light rail as its main policy.
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jorgemontero6384
Calculating per acre isn't all the good when we are comparing subdivisions that have different lot sizes, as you clearly saw in your pictures. Given that changing of lot sizes is basically impossible in a world of HOAs, The right unit is the residential lot. So the way I see it, what your picture shows is that the design is basically the same, and walkability is only marginally increased if there is a nearby business in walking distance of the subdivision. I live in awalkable 60s, subdivision, not because the streets are well connected (they aren't, or because there are many outside connections (4, 2 of which just point to useless subdivisions with no amenities, but because two of those connections lead straight into useful strip malls, and an elementary school.
So while I see avantages in subdivision reform, I think that just avoiding enough adjacent subdivisions without commercial is probably more effective. The subdivision might be easy to traverse, but what if there's nothing next to it Basically every disaster subdivision I know involves such a patchwork of residential subdivisions with nowhere to go.
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Calculating per acre isn't all the good when we are comparing subdivisions that have different lot sizes, as you clearly saw in your pictures. Given that changing of lot sizes is basically impossible in a world of HOAs, The right unit is the residential lot. So the way I see it, what your picture shows is that the design is basically the same, and walkability is only marginally increased if there is a nearby business in walking distance of the subdivision. I live in awalkable 60s, subdivision, not because the streets are well connected (they aren't, or because there are many outside connections (4, 2 of which just point to useless subdivisions with no amenities, but because two of those connections lead straight into useful strip malls, and an elementary school.
So while I see avantages in subdivision reform, I think that just avoiding enough adjacent subdivisions without commercial is probably more effective. The subdivision might be easy to traverse, but what if there's nothing next to it Basically every disaster subdivision I know involves such a patchwork of residential subdivisions with nowhere to go.
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MrC0MPUT3R
I tried to use the light rail to visit a friend in Highlands Ranch in the south part of the Denver metro yesterday. I rode an eScooter from my apartment to the station near me, then planned to ride it from the station nearest his place (the Mineral station on the D line if you know the area)
It was supposed to be a 3 mile ride, but the single trail that conveniently took me to his place was closed. I had to turn around and take a huge circuitous detour of about 7 miles because none of the roads had sidewalks let alone bike lanes.
My scooter died about half way there and I got to experience just how shit suburbs are for anyone outside a car. I finally arrived about 2. 5 hours later. No wonder everyone complains about how bad the traffic is. You literally can't get anywhere without driving. Highlands Ranch is a relatively new development founded in 1981; the newest ones up by the airport that are being built now are even worse. The traffic is so bad getting to them that they've now started a two year project to widen the highway going to the airport
Suburbs are definitely getting worse in the Denver metro.
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I tried to use the light rail to visit a friend in Highlands Ranch in the south part of the Denver metro yesterday. I rode an eScooter from my apartment to the station near me, then planned to ride it from the station nearest his place (the Mineral station on the D line if you know the area)
It was supposed to be a 3 mile ride, but the single trail that conveniently took me to his place was closed. I had to turn around and take a huge circuitous detour of about 7 miles because none of the roads had sidewalks let alone bike lanes.
My scooter died about half way there and I got to experience just how shit suburbs are for anyone outside a car. I finally arrived about 2. 5 hours later. No wonder everyone complains about how bad the traffic is. You literally can't get anywhere without driving. Highlands Ranch is a relatively new development founded in 1981; the newest ones up by the airport that are being built now are even worse. The traffic is so bad getting to them that they've now started a two year project to widen the highway going to the airport
Suburbs are definitely getting worse in the Denver metro.
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JesusChrist-qs8sx
I will continue to push back on this narrative of suburbs being a real thing - there are low density urban areas that, for a variety of reasons, never got annexed by the larger city. But I do genuinely think the future is hopeful for suburbs - most are building more density in some fashion, but many are also building genuinely urban neighborhoods! A few in my metro area are in the process of building urban downtowns, and while it's far from perfect, it's also a sign of things to come! For a lot of people, these new urban neighborhoods are going to be their first experience of urban culture at home rather than as just a destination to vacation or visit. For a lot of these people, it'll open their mind to the idea of having it close to home and improving their own neighborhoods.
We won't be able to change the culture in our cities overnight (barring overturning Euclid v Ohio) but it is something that can happen! We were an urban culture once, in our cities and rural towns, and we can absolutely be an urban culture again.
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I will continue to push back on this narrative of suburbs being a real thing - there are low density urban areas that, for a variety of reasons, never got annexed by the larger city. But I do genuinely think the future is hopeful for suburbs - most are building more density in some fashion, but many are also building genuinely urban neighborhoods! A few in my metro area are in the process of building urban downtowns, and while it's far from perfect, it's also a sign of things to come! For a lot of people, these new urban neighborhoods are going to be their first experience of urban culture at home rather than as just a destination to vacation or visit. For a lot of these people, it'll open their mind to the idea of having it close to home and improving their own neighborhoods.
We won't be able to change the culture in our cities overnight (barring overturning Euclid v Ohio) but it is something that can happen! We were an urban culture once, in our cities and rural towns, and we can absolutely be an urban culture again.
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EmmaMaySeven
Having a network of footpaths beyond the roads is key. I live in York, England, which has superb walkability due its offroad paths. My family doctor is about 2. 3 miles from where I live and less than half a mile is alongside a busy road, making the journey pleasant to walk despite the length. My walk to the city centre is about 1. 2 miles, but I only need to cross one busy road then it's mostly a riverside stroll.
I don't know how such a network can be built from scratch. It almost seems as though a different mindset is needed: that walking is its own mode of travel, that it's non--destructive and has very low intrusiveness, thus developers need to explain why they haven't included footpaths, rather than their provision being exceptional. They can even be provided at zero cost: many footpaths in England are simply dirt tracks worn by walkers: the landowner have to allow access but they don't (often) need to provide much beyond that.
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Having a network of footpaths beyond the roads is key. I live in York, England, which has superb walkability due its offroad paths. My family doctor is about 2. 3 miles from where I live and less than half a mile is alongside a busy road, making the journey pleasant to walk despite the length. My walk to the city centre is about 1. 2 miles, but I only need to cross one busy road then it's mostly a riverside stroll.
I don't know how such a network can be built from scratch. It almost seems as though a different mindset is needed: that walking is its own mode of travel, that it's non--destructive and has very low intrusiveness, thus developers need to explain why they haven't included footpaths, rather than their provision being exceptional. They can even be provided at zero cost: many footpaths in England are simply dirt tracks worn by walkers: the landowner have to allow access but they don't (often) need to provide much beyond that.
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seaotter42
Great video, especially like the focus on how can we improve the suburbs rather than burn it all down. For multi-use paths and cul-de-sac passthroughs, I find that newer subdivisions in my Northern California suburb all have these built-in, even gated neighborhoods have multi-use-path access points. I think its great and a practical solution that I appreciate about my own neighborhood. The paths are an amenity that a lot of buyers expect if they're paying $$$$ for homes. Not directly tied in, but it would be interesting to evaluate where we should re-assess how walkability is evaluated given the rise of remote work. Obviously not everyone can work remote, but a walkable neighborhood for someone who works from home may mean I can walk my kids to school, walk the dog, walk to the park, do small errands on foot, whereas urban walkability is often about can I get to work without a car.
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Great video, especially like the focus on how can we improve the suburbs rather than burn it all down. For multi-use paths and cul-de-sac passthroughs, I find that newer subdivisions in my Northern California suburb all have these built-in, even gated neighborhoods have multi-use-path access points. I think its great and a practical solution that I appreciate about my own neighborhood. The paths are an amenity that a lot of buyers expect if they're paying $$$$ for homes. Not directly tied in, but it would be interesting to evaluate where we should re-assess how walkability is evaluated given the rise of remote work. Obviously not everyone can work remote, but a walkable neighborhood for someone who works from home may mean I can walk my kids to school, walk the dog, walk to the park, do small errands on foot, whereas urban walkability is often about can I get to work without a car.
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Alex-cw3rz
There is a late victorian and Edwardian suburb around the eastern end of Clifton Drive in the town of Lytham in Lancashire northwest of the UK called Lytham Avenues and it is so beautiful red brick buildings with amazing bay windows and bargeboards, stained glass and stone and terracota detailing. The amazing thing is the wider area has so many other rows of beautiful houses, but these ones stood out to me. There is even a little turret designed as an artist studio facing the estuary and sea beyond. In terms of street pattern it's in rows and all connected, no cul-de-sacs. It's also a 15 minute walk from the town centre and originally had a tramway going through the middle of it. So yeah in terms of have suburbs got worse oh yeah a lot worse if we go back to the invention of them. But as you have said luckily there might be a shift in design principles in the future.
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There is a late victorian and Edwardian suburb around the eastern end of Clifton Drive in the town of Lytham in Lancashire northwest of the UK called Lytham Avenues and it is so beautiful red brick buildings with amazing bay windows and bargeboards, stained glass and stone and terracota detailing. The amazing thing is the wider area has so many other rows of beautiful houses, but these ones stood out to me. There is even a little turret designed as an artist studio facing the estuary and sea beyond. In terms of street pattern it's in rows and all connected, no cul-de-sacs. It's also a 15 minute walk from the town centre and originally had a tramway going through the middle of it. So yeah in terms of have suburbs got worse oh yeah a lot worse if we go back to the invention of them. But as you have said luckily there might be a shift in design principles in the future.
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clydecessna737
Why is walk-ability an absolute good 1. Women especially a vulnerable to crime; 2. Walking is slow. 3. You cannot walk with groceries and children; 4. Walking is tiring that is why it is called exercise. 5. Walking is public and not private 6. Difficult for the infirm, the aged. ; 7. Walking in Minnesota in the winter or Tuscan in the summer is frankly bad for your health; 8. A 21st century society has more to do than walk like the Victorians did. If you are suggesting that London is better than Denver, may I suggest you try living in London with its high prices, over-crowding, lack of shopping choice because it is too tiring to hump shopping from the other end of Britain's narrow high streets. Britain has the highest rate of TV watching and in its day video tapes because its just too hard to get about.
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Why is walk-ability an absolute good 1. Women especially a vulnerable to crime; 2. Walking is slow. 3. You cannot walk with groceries and children; 4. Walking is tiring that is why it is called exercise. 5. Walking is public and not private 6. Difficult for the infirm, the aged. ; 7. Walking in Minnesota in the winter or Tuscan in the summer is frankly bad for your health; 8. A 21st century society has more to do than walk like the Victorians did. If you are suggesting that London is better than Denver, may I suggest you try living in London with its high prices, over-crowding, lack of shopping choice because it is too tiring to hump shopping from the other end of Britain's narrow high streets. Britain has the highest rate of TV watching and in its day video tapes because its just too hard to get about.
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SyBo27
Even though exclusive residential suburbs are bad, I don't think that counting the amount of intersections is necessarily a great way of measuring walkability. If you look at the Netherlands they are full of loops and cul de sacs and in the measurement shown at the start they would not rate much better than american cities. The difference is they're only cul de sacs for cars. Pedestrians and cyclists can easily pass from one to the other. Of course there are a lot of other factors, population density probably being the main one, but just making small walkable passages would already solve a lot of problems. On the other hand having those in low density areas would make them a prime spot (and getaway route) for criminals because police cars wouldn't be able to go ther either, so I can see why they don't do it.
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Even though exclusive residential suburbs are bad, I don't think that counting the amount of intersections is necessarily a great way of measuring walkability. If you look at the Netherlands they are full of loops and cul de sacs and in the measurement shown at the start they would not rate much better than american cities. The difference is they're only cul de sacs for cars. Pedestrians and cyclists can easily pass from one to the other. Of course there are a lot of other factors, population density probably being the main one, but just making small walkable passages would already solve a lot of problems. On the other hand having those in low density areas would make them a prime spot (and getaway route) for criminals because police cars wouldn't be able to go ther either, so I can see why they don't do it.
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tj3952
Coming from Japan, I still find it surprising that here the norm is to own a car for commuting and to stock up on groceries weekly to sustain oneself and family for extended periods. As for the urban landscape, subdivisions are shrinking as traditional farmlands because generally those are passed down through generations and are sold to private developers. These developers adhere to laws and regulations to satisfy local codes while maximizing profits from homebuyers who value privacy in their neighborhoods. One of my neighbors frequently posts camera footage on the next-door app, inquiring about strangers on her lawn every time she spots one. Cul-de-sacs, while common, prove to be impractical, inefficient, and not environmentally sound, highlighting a peculiar double standard among suburban homebuyers.
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Coming from Japan, I still find it surprising that here the norm is to own a car for commuting and to stock up on groceries weekly to sustain oneself and family for extended periods. As for the urban landscape, subdivisions are shrinking as traditional farmlands because generally those are passed down through generations and are sold to private developers. These developers adhere to laws and regulations to satisfy local codes while maximizing profits from homebuyers who value privacy in their neighborhoods. One of my neighbors frequently posts camera footage on the next-door app, inquiring about strangers on her lawn every time she spots one. Cul-de-sacs, while common, prove to be impractical, inefficient, and not environmentally sound, highlighting a peculiar double standard among suburban homebuyers.
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yuriydee
Idk, while I agree with the solution of mandating more connections between subdivisions, I still think each county government should ALSO mandate that developers build mixed use spaces or just commercial spaces as well as schools and public things like that. What is happening currently is developers build a bunch of homes in the middle of nowhere and then the the government is left with providing other public services.
I remember visiting a subdivision around Tampa FL like this that still had your typical suburban vibe with cul de sacs and in middle of nowhere but they had a few shops along the main road as well as some parks and even a school within walking distance for the kids. Looked like a decent suburb despite being like 40 mins away from actual downtown.
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Idk, while I agree with the solution of mandating more connections between subdivisions, I still think each county government should ALSO mandate that developers build mixed use spaces or just commercial spaces as well as schools and public things like that. What is happening currently is developers build a bunch of homes in the middle of nowhere and then the the government is left with providing other public services.
I remember visiting a subdivision around Tampa FL like this that still had your typical suburban vibe with cul de sacs and in middle of nowhere but they had a few shops along the main road as well as some parks and even a school within walking distance for the kids. Looked like a decent suburb despite being like 40 mins away from actual downtown.
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yukko_parra
I might like to add that even accounting for walkability, there are other factors that'll influence the walkability of a suburb.
Whilst many temperate Australian cities have suburbs that are adopting curvy grids, and the inclusion of shopping centres and schools in the centre of suburbs (this has been a 1950s thing at least mind you, many newer suburbs are criticised for their dark roofing.
It's not unusual to have a week or two every year where the temperature exceeds 40C or 100F, and darker roofing absorbs heat more easily, leading to more hotter, unpleasant environments. This isn't only a problem for pedestrians and walkability, but affects everyone. In the objective analysis, these suburbs are worse.
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I might like to add that even accounting for walkability, there are other factors that'll influence the walkability of a suburb.
Whilst many temperate Australian cities have suburbs that are adopting curvy grids, and the inclusion of shopping centres and schools in the centre of suburbs (this has been a 1950s thing at least mind you, many newer suburbs are criticised for their dark roofing.
It's not unusual to have a week or two every year where the temperature exceeds 40C or 100F, and darker roofing absorbs heat more easily, leading to more hotter, unpleasant environments. This isn't only a problem for pedestrians and walkability, but affects everyone. In the objective analysis, these suburbs are worse.
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city_beautiful
I think one of the things that has definitely gotten worse with suburbs is design. Modern suburbs are basically all just
, cheap, cookie-cutter homes with identical designs and layouts. It’s hard to have a sense of place or community when everything in the neighborhood looks the same and isn’t even distinguishable from the next few subdivisions.
I think design is often overlooked when it comes to urbanist. Architectural variety is important for establishing a neighborhood’s identity and making people want to live there. It’s not just suburbs that have this problem either. Those new, ugly-looking gentrification buildings are horrible.
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I think one of the things that has definitely gotten worse with suburbs is design. Modern suburbs are basically all just
, cheap, cookie-cutter homes with identical designs and layouts. It’s hard to have a sense of place or community when everything in the neighborhood looks the same and isn’t even distinguishable from the next few subdivisions.
I think design is often overlooked when it comes to urbanist. Architectural variety is important for establishing a neighborhood’s identity and making people want to live there. It’s not just suburbs that have this problem either. Those new, ugly-looking gentrification buildings are horrible.
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arrvidcarlson8107
I live in Raleigh. If your featured representative neighborhood had more than a passing resemblance to a gated community, ding, ding ding you win a prize. The whole point is to limit access, not expand it. I suggest you rerun your sample data and only count the as build road connections, you'll be shocked and likely appalled. If you have a filter to include club houses with a pool that will make the findings even more convincing. Good luck. [edit] A new park is planned just up the road, it will connect with existing green space but will explicitly not connect with residential neighborhoods, except by car.
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I live in Raleigh. If your featured representative neighborhood had more than a passing resemblance to a gated community, ding, ding ding you win a prize. The whole point is to limit access, not expand it. I suggest you rerun your sample data and only count the as build road connections, you'll be shocked and likely appalled. If you have a filter to include club houses with a pool that will make the findings even more convincing. Good luck. [edit] A new park is planned just up the road, it will connect with existing green space but will explicitly not connect with residential neighborhoods, except by car.
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setyourhandlex
Linking subdivisions with foot and bike paths should be mandatory. I think road access and standard intersections aren't necessarily the healthiest approach, anyone who's lived in a neighbourhood with streets parallel to a busy arterial can tell you the horrors of trying to get people not to speed through because they see your street as an alternate route and not a place where people live. It's also important because it provides a direct incentive to use other means of transportation; if it's faster to walk or bike to my favourite restaurant or library then weather permitting I'll do that instead.
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Linking subdivisions with foot and bike paths should be mandatory. I think road access and standard intersections aren't necessarily the healthiest approach, anyone who's lived in a neighbourhood with streets parallel to a busy arterial can tell you the horrors of trying to get people not to speed through because they see your street as an alternate route and not a place where people live. It's also important because it provides a direct incentive to use other means of transportation; if it's faster to walk or bike to my favourite restaurant or library then weather permitting I'll do that instead.
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johnlabus7359
6: 07 Having a long history with Raleigh and Wake County and beyond familiar with the growth of the area, I've seen these stubs often. They are usually because the other side isn't yet developed or redeveloped, but that gigantic house with the pool makes me suspect that there's a different reason in this case.
I'd also say that you are correct that the plots of available land for larger subdivisions has already been developed close in to the city.
Lastly, and for reference/context, Wake County has grown from about 300, 000 in 1980 to about 1. 2 Million today.
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6: 07 Having a long history with Raleigh and Wake County and beyond familiar with the growth of the area, I've seen these stubs often. They are usually because the other side isn't yet developed or redeveloped, but that gigantic house with the pool makes me suspect that there's a different reason in this case.
I'd also say that you are correct that the plots of available land for larger subdivisions has already been developed close in to the city.
Lastly, and for reference/context, Wake County has grown from about 300, 000 in 1980 to about 1. 2 Million today.
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ShaneOConnorRec
I live in a very wealthy suburb (more like a village) just outside of Los Angeles. The housing developments were designed largely in the 70's and 80's. There are lots of terrible things about how everything is spread out, but they did account for an incredible amount of walkable parks, easy access to grocery stores by foot, and most importantly, walkways and paths between developments.
A lot of people gawk at where I moved, but it actually feels more urban than Hollywood in a lot of ways. It feels more like a walkable city than the flats of Los Angeles.
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I live in a very wealthy suburb (more like a village) just outside of Los Angeles. The housing developments were designed largely in the 70's and 80's. There are lots of terrible things about how everything is spread out, but they did account for an incredible amount of walkable parks, easy access to grocery stores by foot, and most importantly, walkways and paths between developments.
A lot of people gawk at where I moved, but it actually feels more urban than Hollywood in a lot of ways. It feels more like a walkable city than the flats of Los Angeles.
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joricj57
In Europe, we would call these greenways out of town and pass-throughs or gap-in-the-walls in town. A common solution with busy roads is culverts or underpasses. You would be able to pass through on foot or by bike but not by car. it makes going to yer neighbour much easier and allows for easier mobility through the estate by means of local mobility without getting the traffic overrun. I know these don't solve the density problem, but it's putting a low-impact band aid on an existing problem. It is easy enough to create a pass-through through an estate
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In Europe, we would call these greenways out of town and pass-throughs or gap-in-the-walls in town. A common solution with busy roads is culverts or underpasses. You would be able to pass through on foot or by bike but not by car. it makes going to yer neighbour much easier and allows for easier mobility through the estate by means of local mobility without getting the traffic overrun. I know these don't solve the density problem, but it's putting a low-impact band aid on an existing problem. It is easy enough to create a pass-through through an estate
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phildf2447
You were getting close with the talk about subdivision rules and zoning. If commercial spaces were integrated into the center of neighborhoods and not relegated to the outside of them, there would be less traffic going to central locations where all of the groceries, restaurants, and shops are. Besides, if you live right next to a grocery store, you'll be less likely to go drive somewhere else to shop. That cuts down on traffic and helps build community since you're likely to see your neighbors at the local shop more often.
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You were getting close with the talk about subdivision rules and zoning. If commercial spaces were integrated into the center of neighborhoods and not relegated to the outside of them, there would be less traffic going to central locations where all of the groceries, restaurants, and shops are. Besides, if you live right next to a grocery store, you'll be less likely to go drive somewhere else to shop. That cuts down on traffic and helps build community since you're likely to see your neighbors at the local shop more often.
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city_beautiful
I used to work designing subdivision layouts in the Atlanta area a few years ago, and aside from oddly-shaped parcels one of the other things that often resulted in us including lots of cul-de-sacs was topography. Many of remaining the parcels being developed now are very hilly, and the combination of stream-buffers and road and sewer steepness requirements often meant that the easiest layout would have the roads follow the ridgelines, creating a tree-like pattern inverse to the layout of the streams and creeks below.
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I used to work designing subdivision layouts in the Atlanta area a few years ago, and aside from oddly-shaped parcels one of the other things that often resulted in us including lots of cul-de-sacs was topography. Many of remaining the parcels being developed now are very hilly, and the combination of stream-buffers and road and sewer steepness requirements often meant that the easiest layout would have the roads follow the ridgelines, creating a tree-like pattern inverse to the layout of the streams and creeks below.
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