Why do people like HOAs?
video description
When I was looking for a house I had to go 45 minutes out of the city center where there was is access to public transit and most amenities are at least a 25 minute drive away, because not being an HOA was one of my mandatory requirements and the only options I could find in my price range near public transit call closer to work outside of an HOA work complete fixer-uppers. Meanwhile, I have coworkers who bought brand-new cheaper houses right on public transit lines around the same period, because they were willing to buy in an HOA.
Date: 2022-10-25
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Comments and reviews: 14
penny
I feel like homeowners associations are just the shitty off-brand capitalist version of a housing co-op or tenants Union.
From what I understand, a lot of these organizations exist to preserve the property values of the homes, meaning there's a profit incentive to every action taken by the homeowners association.
This fundamentally means that, just because of the way markets work, power is inevitably going to be centralized and abused by those at the top for personal gain. Whether that personal gain be driving people out of the neighborhood that they don't like (HOAs in my experience tend to be pretty bigoted places to live) or trying to raise the value of their home by micromanaging everybody else's.
I think homeowners associations are popular because, when run well, they are basically just a less efficient version of a housing co-op. Because people aren't aware of the alternatives (public. Housing, housing co-ops, for tenants unions for renters) they see a HOA as their only option when at best it has some of the benefits of the options I mentioned previously, with way more downsides.
Fundamentally, homeowners associations are yet another unjust power structure that exists as a result of the capitalist economic system. If housing was the commodified, and deemed as a human right (which is most certainly is) they would have no reason to exist because you have no need for an entity to protect property values when property is only value is as housing.
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I feel like homeowners associations are just the shitty off-brand capitalist version of a housing co-op or tenants Union.
From what I understand, a lot of these organizations exist to preserve the property values of the homes, meaning there's a profit incentive to every action taken by the homeowners association.
This fundamentally means that, just because of the way markets work, power is inevitably going to be centralized and abused by those at the top for personal gain. Whether that personal gain be driving people out of the neighborhood that they don't like (HOAs in my experience tend to be pretty bigoted places to live) or trying to raise the value of their home by micromanaging everybody else's.
I think homeowners associations are popular because, when run well, they are basically just a less efficient version of a housing co-op. Because people aren't aware of the alternatives (public. Housing, housing co-ops, for tenants unions for renters) they see a HOA as their only option when at best it has some of the benefits of the options I mentioned previously, with way more downsides.
Fundamentally, homeowners associations are yet another unjust power structure that exists as a result of the capitalist economic system. If housing was the commodified, and deemed as a human right (which is most certainly is) they would have no reason to exist because you have no need for an entity to protect property values when property is only value is as housing.
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Save
My issue with HOAs is that they have potential to be super useful, but they rarely live up to that potential.
4 things which most homeowners could do in order to lower their carbon footprint are: Compost, have a small garden, plant yards which require no watering, and install renewable electricity generation. HOAs could help with all of these things.
They could higher outside workers to manage the compost pile and garden so that everything doesn t die when you go on vacation. They could relax their standards for perfectly manicured grass lawns in order to cut down on fertilizer and water use. And they could collectively bargain with a solar installer in order to get everyone a discount!
But instead, we re stuck with a bunch of HOAs who just care about the junk that was mentioned in that Reddit thread
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My issue with HOAs is that they have potential to be super useful, but they rarely live up to that potential.
4 things which most homeowners could do in order to lower their carbon footprint are: Compost, have a small garden, plant yards which require no watering, and install renewable electricity generation. HOAs could help with all of these things.
They could higher outside workers to manage the compost pile and garden so that everything doesn t die when you go on vacation. They could relax their standards for perfectly manicured grass lawns in order to cut down on fertilizer and water use. And they could collectively bargain with a solar installer in order to get everyone a discount!
But instead, we re stuck with a bunch of HOAs who just care about the junk that was mentioned in that Reddit thread
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Lord
In my experience the vast majority of people who complain about HOA's in internet discussions are people saying things like I would never live in one they are bad not I personally had a problem
I've lived in three neighborhoods with HOAs one I had a problem with the board, showed up to the meeting with 3 other people who were also upset and found that the 4 of us outvoted the President, Vice President and Treasurer, the only other three people who showed up, and kicked them off the board. I was surprised to hear from so many other people about how few people actually attend HOA meetings/elections normally a handful of people is enough to to completely throw an election the board holds power because. they are the only ones who show up, normally 3-4 retired people with nothing else to do.
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In my experience the vast majority of people who complain about HOA's in internet discussions are people saying things like I would never live in one they are bad not I personally had a problem
I've lived in three neighborhoods with HOAs one I had a problem with the board, showed up to the meeting with 3 other people who were also upset and found that the 4 of us outvoted the President, Vice President and Treasurer, the only other three people who showed up, and kicked them off the board. I was surprised to hear from so many other people about how few people actually attend HOA meetings/elections normally a handful of people is enough to to completely throw an election the board holds power because. they are the only ones who show up, normally 3-4 retired people with nothing else to do.
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Erik
Your unequal votes examples are so benign compared to what we have in Redwood Estates/Holy City in California. Here, the number of votes per parcel is explicit in the deeds for each parcel and they vary by parcel. A minority of parcels each get like 10x the votes of most parcels. Supposedly this can t be changed because being in the deed means it s part of the value of the property, so the people with more would have to voluntarily forfeit their additional votes and the HOA can t force them to do that.
The deeds are also very clear in very dated language about the persuasion and ethnicity of property owners, but thankfully that part isn t enforced anymore.
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Your unequal votes examples are so benign compared to what we have in Redwood Estates/Holy City in California. Here, the number of votes per parcel is explicit in the deeds for each parcel and they vary by parcel. A minority of parcels each get like 10x the votes of most parcels. Supposedly this can t be changed because being in the deed means it s part of the value of the property, so the people with more would have to voluntarily forfeit their additional votes and the HOA can t force them to do that.
The deeds are also very clear in very dated language about the persuasion and ethnicity of property owners, but thankfully that part isn t enforced anymore.
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Jose
If you come to a place like Phoenix you pretty much have limited options if you don't want an HOA. 90+% of the suburbs here are in HOAs. I'm looking for a house here. If I want something relatively close to my work it'll be in an HOA (If I can even afford it in the first place. If I want something close to transit options I'll be in a COA which the monthly dues would make it unaffordable. My only options would be deeper into the suburbs with a lower HOA or moving to the next satellite city with probably no HOA and much more affordable housing but contributing more to traffic congestion.
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If you come to a place like Phoenix you pretty much have limited options if you don't want an HOA. 90+% of the suburbs here are in HOAs. I'm looking for a house here. If I want something relatively close to my work it'll be in an HOA (If I can even afford it in the first place. If I want something close to transit options I'll be in a COA which the monthly dues would make it unaffordable. My only options would be deeper into the suburbs with a lower HOA or moving to the next satellite city with probably no HOA and much more affordable housing but contributing more to traffic congestion.
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Luo
47% of HOA residents would prefer to not have an HOA, and only 43% like them. However, ONLY HOA residents were surveyed, so it doesn't show that HOAs are popular. Likewise, a lot of factors go into play into house prices, so HOA homes being more expensive also doesn't mean the HOA concept itself is popular.
Most new developments are built with HOA because that's what the cities require. Likewise, most of the amenities are based on city requirements. Developers often would make more money if they could build more homes and less amenities, even if each house sells for a bit less.
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47% of HOA residents would prefer to not have an HOA, and only 43% like them. However, ONLY HOA residents were surveyed, so it doesn't show that HOAs are popular. Likewise, a lot of factors go into play into house prices, so HOA homes being more expensive also doesn't mean the HOA concept itself is popular.
Most new developments are built with HOA because that's what the cities require. Likewise, most of the amenities are based on city requirements. Developers often would make more money if they could build more homes and less amenities, even if each house sells for a bit less.
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Tastum
I wonder how much these statistics are skewed by urban condos and similar owner-occupied housing with shared walls. Places like that need an HOA to be viable at all. I lived in such a condo in a building on the historical preservation register - the HOA made sure we stayed in compliance for historical preservation, handled exterior maintenance and upgrades, and so forth. They weren't perfect but effective at what they did.
I cannot imagine wanting an HOA for a detached house. I only accepted one because I wanted to live downtown.
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I wonder how much these statistics are skewed by urban condos and similar owner-occupied housing with shared walls. Places like that need an HOA to be viable at all. I lived in such a condo in a building on the historical preservation register - the HOA made sure we stayed in compliance for historical preservation, handled exterior maintenance and upgrades, and so forth. They weren't perfect but effective at what they did.
I cannot imagine wanting an HOA for a detached house. I only accepted one because I wanted to live downtown.
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Brett
Great video as always!
I'm curious if the 4% increase that people are willing to pay (according to that study) is because it's IN the HOA or because it's a NICER HOUSE because of the HOA that it is in?
I wonder if and how many people actually know the value they are getting AND the price they are paying when they buy in an HOA? I sure didn't on my first house. I probably wouldn't do it again for my home and definitely wouldn't for an investment property.
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Great video as always!
I'm curious if the 4% increase that people are willing to pay (according to that study) is because it's IN the HOA or because it's a NICER HOUSE because of the HOA that it is in?
I wonder if and how many people actually know the value they are getting AND the price they are paying when they buy in an HOA? I sure didn't on my first house. I probably wouldn't do it again for my home and definitely wouldn't for an investment property.
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scunicycler
I grew up in an HOA and it was fine until one person would inevitably get upset over something and make it their mission to make the other person miserable. That obviously happens in non-HOA communities too, but it felt my like there was a sort of 'secret police' with everyone telling on other people over any little infringement. The whole neighborhood just felt sterile too. I'm glad to be out, living in an interesting neighborhood with lots of variety.
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I grew up in an HOA and it was fine until one person would inevitably get upset over something and make it their mission to make the other person miserable. That obviously happens in non-HOA communities too, but it felt my like there was a sort of 'secret police' with everyone telling on other people over any little infringement. The whole neighborhood just felt sterile too. I'm glad to be out, living in an interesting neighborhood with lots of variety.
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Sam
My HOA is for a single, self managed 6 flat in Chicago. For 200 dollars a month, the building gets landscaping, snow removal and maintained (it was built in 1906 so that's not exactly cheap) without me having to do anything but send in my dues. The HOA is extremely relaxed on anything regarding what I do within my own walls. I'm all for dunking on suburban HOAs fining people for living their lives, but they're definitely not all created equal.
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My HOA is for a single, self managed 6 flat in Chicago. For 200 dollars a month, the building gets landscaping, snow removal and maintained (it was built in 1906 so that's not exactly cheap) without me having to do anything but send in my dues. The HOA is extremely relaxed on anything regarding what I do within my own walls. I'm all for dunking on suburban HOAs fining people for living their lives, but they're definitely not all created equal.
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Derrick
I'm in a co-op, which is similar to an HOA, but all the property is owned by a non-profit organization who's board is made up by a committee of the renters.
Imagine an HOA, but if people weren't uptight about property value because they were busing focusing on the communities living experience and financial well being. Specifically, my co-op is focused on raising children, and only allows people to move in who have children.
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I'm in a co-op, which is similar to an HOA, but all the property is owned by a non-profit organization who's board is made up by a committee of the renters.
Imagine an HOA, but if people weren't uptight about property value because they were busing focusing on the communities living experience and financial well being. Specifically, my co-op is focused on raising children, and only allows people to move in who have children.
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coolerfiend
as a Canadian, this is odd. We have these for multifamily (townhouses and condos, which makes sense because you share building structure. but not for single family homes. those are almost governed by the municipality. Why would HOAs begin to exist for single family home neighborhoods? Maybe because the municipal governments were inadequately maintaining the places? Sounds like just another failure of government in usa
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as a Canadian, this is odd. We have these for multifamily (townhouses and condos, which makes sense because you share building structure. but not for single family homes. those are almost governed by the municipality. Why would HOAs begin to exist for single family home neighborhoods? Maybe because the municipal governments were inadequately maintaining the places? Sounds like just another failure of government in usa
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John
HOAs want every house and lawn looking the same. No character, no spirit. Its like a little fascist island. They discriminate against people that stand out from the crowd. It you don't follow the rules and blend in, you're on their bad side and get harassed.
I have never lived in an HOA, but heard stories from family members that do. For example, being told how many plants and what kind of plants to have in the front.
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HOAs want every house and lawn looking the same. No character, no spirit. Its like a little fascist island. They discriminate against people that stand out from the crowd. It you don't follow the rules and blend in, you're on their bad side and get harassed.
I have never lived in an HOA, but heard stories from family members that do. For example, being told how many plants and what kind of plants to have in the front.
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KOLN555
Ideologically, I am opposed to HOAs and a friend of mine has been targeted by his HOA for abuse just because the HOA's president dislikes him. That said, my HOA is very chill, the fee is low and goes to services that I'd probably end up paying more for if I had to pay for them individually. Like so many systems, it seems to only be as good as the people who comprise it allow it to be.
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Ideologically, I am opposed to HOAs and a friend of mine has been targeted by his HOA for abuse just because the HOA's president dislikes him. That said, my HOA is very chill, the fee is low and goes to services that I'd probably end up paying more for if I had to pay for them individually. Like so many systems, it seems to only be as good as the people who comprise it allow it to be.
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