2019 Hyundai Nexo Review The Ultimate Unicorn
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Date: 2019-05-30
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Comments and reviews: 10
AeroSpaceNews.com
Alex: Huge respect for your thoughtful, detailed and largely accurate on the H2 piece here. However, please consider how the H2 industry has long referred to power train configurations as you formulate your comparisons. A vehicle like a Nexo is not properly thought of as a battery EV with a different battery. It is a hybrid, correctly called a fuel cell hybrid, with a different kind of fuel. One other thought: As you try (and it is hard - I feel you) comparing the system efficiencies - with pure EV vs H2, you must consider the source of the E in EV (the well part. And, please, self-discharge: in both batteries and H2 tanks. Inactive (not driven for days, the batteries in an EV can reduce efficiency via self-discharge. Disclaimer: This can also be true with some H2 storage schemes (liquid especially, but also high pressure gas and solid metal hydride. All, systems and technologies, including carbon fuels, face these complex and interconnected factors. It makes the head spin faster than those weird rim things that people stick on their wheels To be clear: I largely agree with your conclusions. I just think the factors I mentioned brings EV real world efficiency (and greenness) down a notch making H2 a closer competitor. When you add in that fueling experience (fast - clean and convenient, the case for H2 is compelling, if still 100% unconvincing. I say that only because of the incredible strides made in very high voltage EV recharging systems. There are really fast/practical systems on the way (Porsche - Im looking at you)
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Alex: Huge respect for your thoughtful, detailed and largely accurate on the H2 piece here. However, please consider how the H2 industry has long referred to power train configurations as you formulate your comparisons. A vehicle like a Nexo is not properly thought of as a battery EV with a different battery. It is a hybrid, correctly called a fuel cell hybrid, with a different kind of fuel. One other thought: As you try (and it is hard - I feel you) comparing the system efficiencies - with pure EV vs H2, you must consider the source of the E in EV (the well part. And, please, self-discharge: in both batteries and H2 tanks. Inactive (not driven for days, the batteries in an EV can reduce efficiency via self-discharge. Disclaimer: This can also be true with some H2 storage schemes (liquid especially, but also high pressure gas and solid metal hydride. All, systems and technologies, including carbon fuels, face these complex and interconnected factors. It makes the head spin faster than those weird rim things that people stick on their wheels To be clear: I largely agree with your conclusions. I just think the factors I mentioned brings EV real world efficiency (and greenness) down a notch making H2 a closer competitor. When you add in that fueling experience (fast - clean and convenient, the case for H2 is compelling, if still 100% unconvincing. I say that only because of the incredible strides made in very high voltage EV recharging systems. There are really fast/practical systems on the way (Porsche - Im looking at you)
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Mark S
electricity to charge your tesla is not green either. It too comes from whatever source made it. You must compare apples to apples. How much energy is spent to produce electricity in a power plant? Hydrogen is not an energy source in and of itself, anymore than electricity is an energy source. It is a medium for energy. It is only a way to store it. The difference with hydrogen, is that unlike storing it in a battery, range is no longer an issue and you can refuel in a couple of minutes, not 12 hours. Another great thing about Hydrogen is that any gas station can sell it. Just like they sell propane or natural gas. They just have to get the tanks installed. So the infrastructure is already there in every existing gas station. Also, the cost you quote for electricity assumes that no changes to the power grid are necessary. That is todays price for electricity when almost nobody has a battery charged vehicle. But if you add 263 million cars to the US electric grid, the grid could not handle that load and therefore the cost of electricity would have to go way, way up. One more thing, you referred to this as a hydrogen vehicle vs an electric vehicle. This is an electric vehicle. All vehicles will eventually be electric. You meant to say a hydrogen vehicle vs a battery vehicle. The difference is how the electricity is produced - one produces it from a battery, one produces it from a fuel cell.
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electricity to charge your tesla is not green either. It too comes from whatever source made it. You must compare apples to apples. How much energy is spent to produce electricity in a power plant? Hydrogen is not an energy source in and of itself, anymore than electricity is an energy source. It is a medium for energy. It is only a way to store it. The difference with hydrogen, is that unlike storing it in a battery, range is no longer an issue and you can refuel in a couple of minutes, not 12 hours. Another great thing about Hydrogen is that any gas station can sell it. Just like they sell propane or natural gas. They just have to get the tanks installed. So the infrastructure is already there in every existing gas station. Also, the cost you quote for electricity assumes that no changes to the power grid are necessary. That is todays price for electricity when almost nobody has a battery charged vehicle. But if you add 263 million cars to the US electric grid, the grid could not handle that load and therefore the cost of electricity would have to go way, way up. One more thing, you referred to this as a hydrogen vehicle vs an electric vehicle. This is an electric vehicle. All vehicles will eventually be electric. You meant to say a hydrogen vehicle vs a battery vehicle. The difference is how the electricity is produced - one produces it from a battery, one produces it from a fuel cell.
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Corey Barcus
Low carbon hydrogen can come from natural gas if the CO2 is sequestered. New techniques involve cracking methane with a liquid metal or using microwaves, producing powdered carbon for easy use or disposal. Since sourcing methane still entails substantial leakage, there will still be emissions. Another option for sourcing hydrogen is to use next generation advanced nuclear power. China has just finished a high temperature demonstration plant, and there are more examples coming. The US DOE has long advocated using a thermochemical cycle coupled with a high temperature reactor. An advanced reactor might also just use electrolysis for H2 production. Scaling of the H2 refueling infrastructure will accelerate in the coming years because of a major step change in fuel cell technology: the platinum loading of the fuel cells catalyst will soon be at the level used in ubiquitous catalytic converters. Liquid hydrogen is likely to become widely available because of its far lower transport costs. LH2 allows next generation cryogenic-compressed storage to give more range. 10 kg CcH2 tanks have been developed for public transit, and would make available 200 kWh 60% efficiency. The tank weighs about 100 kg and can be filled in minutes.
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Low carbon hydrogen can come from natural gas if the CO2 is sequestered. New techniques involve cracking methane with a liquid metal or using microwaves, producing powdered carbon for easy use or disposal. Since sourcing methane still entails substantial leakage, there will still be emissions. Another option for sourcing hydrogen is to use next generation advanced nuclear power. China has just finished a high temperature demonstration plant, and there are more examples coming. The US DOE has long advocated using a thermochemical cycle coupled with a high temperature reactor. An advanced reactor might also just use electrolysis for H2 production. Scaling of the H2 refueling infrastructure will accelerate in the coming years because of a major step change in fuel cell technology: the platinum loading of the fuel cells catalyst will soon be at the level used in ubiquitous catalytic converters. Liquid hydrogen is likely to become widely available because of its far lower transport costs. LH2 allows next generation cryogenic-compressed storage to give more range. 10 kg CcH2 tanks have been developed for public transit, and would make available 200 kWh 60% efficiency. The tank weighs about 100 kg and can be filled in minutes.
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David Dahan
Wow, do I wish that car was available in PA. By far my favorite vehicle and I cant buy it I dont see why not having a hydrogen infrastructure is such a high hurdle. Why wait for some third party to develop the key ingredient (H2 stations) to making their product work? Cant Hyundai sell me a home H2 generation appliance and storage tank? I would gladly pay Hyundai extra to have someone come to my home and install one. Its only input is electricity and water from a hose. In addition, Hyundai should incentivize each of its dealerships to install a small, one-pump station. The dealerships are spaced far enough from each other to make them somewhat ubiquitous. Plus, itll be a smart way to keep their customers coming back regularly. Apple does everything it can do to keep their customers within the Apple ecosystem by forcing customers to come back for most their accessories. They dont mind because its convenient. Car companies havent figured out that bringing their customers back to the dealerships to do something as simple as filling up every 350 miles may be a GOOD thing for long-term relationships, and ultimately, sales. Ugh. I want that car.
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Wow, do I wish that car was available in PA. By far my favorite vehicle and I cant buy it I dont see why not having a hydrogen infrastructure is such a high hurdle. Why wait for some third party to develop the key ingredient (H2 stations) to making their product work? Cant Hyundai sell me a home H2 generation appliance and storage tank? I would gladly pay Hyundai extra to have someone come to my home and install one. Its only input is electricity and water from a hose. In addition, Hyundai should incentivize each of its dealerships to install a small, one-pump station. The dealerships are spaced far enough from each other to make them somewhat ubiquitous. Plus, itll be a smart way to keep their customers coming back regularly. Apple does everything it can do to keep their customers within the Apple ecosystem by forcing customers to come back for most their accessories. They dont mind because its convenient. Car companies havent figured out that bringing their customers back to the dealerships to do something as simple as filling up every 350 miles may be a GOOD thing for long-term relationships, and ultimately, sales. Ugh. I want that car.
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dMb
Bio-generation? Nope. Photosynthesis (such as with algae) is around 8% to 12% efficient, meaning that percentage of the sunlight hitting is is converted to useful work (like making chemicals. But hydrogen is not the only chemical being produced by those algae, so it cant be 8% to 12% of the suns energy being converted to hydrogen. It will be closer to 1% to 2%. For comparison, common solar panels for residential use already top 20% efficiency, meaning 20% of the suns energy is converted to useful electricity. Compare that 20% to 2% for hydrogen. Now realize that the hydrogen has to be collected & stored. That is only 85% efficiency. And the conversion from hydrogen to electricity is going to be 40% efficient. NASA has fuel cells at 60% efficiency, but you cant afford that. So youre looking at 0. 7% of the sunlight making your car go. But for solar panels, storing & releasing the electricity from a battery is 90% efficient, so 18% of the suns energy makes your car go. Thats only 25x better than hydrogen.
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Bio-generation? Nope. Photosynthesis (such as with algae) is around 8% to 12% efficient, meaning that percentage of the sunlight hitting is is converted to useful work (like making chemicals. But hydrogen is not the only chemical being produced by those algae, so it cant be 8% to 12% of the suns energy being converted to hydrogen. It will be closer to 1% to 2%. For comparison, common solar panels for residential use already top 20% efficiency, meaning 20% of the suns energy is converted to useful electricity. Compare that 20% to 2% for hydrogen. Now realize that the hydrogen has to be collected & stored. That is only 85% efficiency. And the conversion from hydrogen to electricity is going to be 40% efficient. NASA has fuel cells at 60% efficiency, but you cant afford that. So youre looking at 0. 7% of the sunlight making your car go. But for solar panels, storing & releasing the electricity from a battery is 90% efficient, so 18% of the suns energy makes your car go. Thats only 25x better than hydrogen.
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Mark Villano
When I look at the market (current and future) for hydrogen fuel cell cars as opposed to battery powered electric vehicles, it reminds me of the Beta vs VHS contest back in the late 70s and early 80s. Beta had slightly better sound and video quality, but was stymied by the higher cost of its machines and tapes, along with a shorter recording time capability. Because VHS was able to take and hold the lions share of this emerging market, Beta was never really able to gain a foothold. With limited fueling stations in a market that is already beginning to be saturated by the competition, I just dont see the long term viability of the Hydrogen Fuel Cell platform. In the current environment, I dont see a lot of everyday drivers willing to plop down upwards of 50, 000 for a vehicle that is unable to travel outside the confines of California.
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When I look at the market (current and future) for hydrogen fuel cell cars as opposed to battery powered electric vehicles, it reminds me of the Beta vs VHS contest back in the late 70s and early 80s. Beta had slightly better sound and video quality, but was stymied by the higher cost of its machines and tapes, along with a shorter recording time capability. Because VHS was able to take and hold the lions share of this emerging market, Beta was never really able to gain a foothold. With limited fueling stations in a market that is already beginning to be saturated by the competition, I just dont see the long term viability of the Hydrogen Fuel Cell platform. In the current environment, I dont see a lot of everyday drivers willing to plop down upwards of 50, 000 for a vehicle that is unable to travel outside the confines of California.
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T Johnson
A definite thank you for the fuel cell explanation and straight delivery. As for fuel cell vehicles vs. EV, I think that isnt much of a question while stations are basically within EV range. The only advantage I see for fuel cell is if you drive a ton of miles every day; if you drive under a couple hundred miles its far more convenient to just fill up at home. And if you drive too far in an EV you can still refuel even if it has to be off of a 120V. Sure, it takes a while, but go too far in a fuel cell vehicle and youll have to be towed. All that could change, though, if fuel cell vehicles take off. and prices for hydrogen come waaay down. The fuel subsidy helps, sure, but I definitely wouldnt buy a fuel cell vehicle when I might have to pay those prices when the subsidy goes away.
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A definite thank you for the fuel cell explanation and straight delivery. As for fuel cell vehicles vs. EV, I think that isnt much of a question while stations are basically within EV range. The only advantage I see for fuel cell is if you drive a ton of miles every day; if you drive under a couple hundred miles its far more convenient to just fill up at home. And if you drive too far in an EV you can still refuel even if it has to be off of a 120V. Sure, it takes a while, but go too far in a fuel cell vehicle and youll have to be towed. All that could change, though, if fuel cell vehicles take off. and prices for hydrogen come waaay down. The fuel subsidy helps, sure, but I definitely wouldnt buy a fuel cell vehicle when I might have to pay those prices when the subsidy goes away.
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Mike Loomis
The only reason there is no range anxiety in gas cars is the ubiquitousness of fast refueling stations. Hydrogen cars get the fast fill up right but I would have way more range anxiety in a hydrogen car than an ev because you really have to make sure you can reach one of those stations, and what happens if they are out of service for whatever reason? You really have no other recourse. However, if hydrogen stations started popping up all over the place then a hydrogen car is better than any other alternative, assuming hydrogen prices come down. When, or if, that happens is anyones guess. If they can get charging times way down for evs then hydrogen will never take off.
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The only reason there is no range anxiety in gas cars is the ubiquitousness of fast refueling stations. Hydrogen cars get the fast fill up right but I would have way more range anxiety in a hydrogen car than an ev because you really have to make sure you can reach one of those stations, and what happens if they are out of service for whatever reason? You really have no other recourse. However, if hydrogen stations started popping up all over the place then a hydrogen car is better than any other alternative, assuming hydrogen prices come down. When, or if, that happens is anyones guess. If they can get charging times way down for evs then hydrogen will never take off.
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Zach Huneycutt
Hydrogen is a non-starter. Youre having to add a whole new costly and bulky support system with the filling stations (dispensers, space, underground tanks, transportation of the hydrogen to the stations, hydrogen production itself etc) All of that and the only benefit over a pure BEV is refuel time. Just not worth the added expense. Installing public charging stations for BEVs is way less expensive and intrusive and can be done in parking lots, electricity is already being produced and has a huge established infrastructure to support it. Plus you can charge your EV at home while you sleep.
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Hydrogen is a non-starter. Youre having to add a whole new costly and bulky support system with the filling stations (dispensers, space, underground tanks, transportation of the hydrogen to the stations, hydrogen production itself etc) All of that and the only benefit over a pure BEV is refuel time. Just not worth the added expense. Installing public charging stations for BEVs is way less expensive and intrusive and can be done in parking lots, electricity is already being produced and has a huge established infrastructure to support it. Plus you can charge your EV at home while you sleep.
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Rennie Allen
You missed the actual method of how green hydrogen is generated, which is 100% renewable and that is using a molton carbonate fuel cell in a tri-generation configuration being fed with methane captured from dairy/feedlot animal waste. The carbon released from this process is atmospheric carbon (that is, it is carbon that has been in the atmosphere for millennia and thus is neutral. Without a market for this animal waste the methane it is released into the atmosphere, and methane is a 24x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 so that makes fuel cell vehicles significantly GHG negative
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You missed the actual method of how green hydrogen is generated, which is 100% renewable and that is using a molton carbonate fuel cell in a tri-generation configuration being fed with methane captured from dairy/feedlot animal waste. The carbon released from this process is atmospheric carbon (that is, it is carbon that has been in the atmosphere for millennia and thus is neutral. Without a market for this animal waste the methane it is released into the atmosphere, and methane is a 24x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 so that makes fuel cell vehicles significantly GHG negative
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