Why People Are Freaking Out About Addison Rae, Terry Crews, BTS, & The Defund The Police Debate
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Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but the idea of removing money from police and putting it into the community feels like its a little too late. Like you might be able to help people who are at risk, but the people who are already criminals or in gangs aren't going to suddenly stop committing crimes because their communities have more resources. I get that its more of a long term solution on that front, but in the meantime it feels like police will be worse equipped to deal with situations in the meantime.
Please let me know if I'm just completely missing the point here.
Date: 2020-06-09
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Comments and reviews: 8
ADN
I think the historical argument against police is disingenuous. You would not think that modern police everywhere harbor or uphold the values of child labor and abuse, wife-beating, underage drinking and drug-use or killing your neighbor in a preaccorded duel, even though at one point their predecessors maintained a status quo that included those things and many others. Claiming that the police is racist because its predecessors started off controlling slaves is daft AF.
I agree that just having the conversation about defunding or abolishing police is amazing. Unfortunately I also feel like the second proposition in particular (as much as it deviates from what abolishing would usually be interpreted as) is more than a bit naive. The sort of deep and wide-spanning changes that would be required for it to be effective would be extremely difficult to be significantly achievable within the timespan that most people claiming for it would acceptable or satisfying, and runs into significant hurdles, not the least being changing the underlying material conditions of depressed communities within a frame of ever-increasing income inequality, and a political system that is presenting you the option of the two oldest status-quo, pro-corporation candidates in US history.
But, naturally change has to start somewhere, and improving peoples' livelyhoods in tangible and effective ways could hardly not be a good proposition.
For the short-term it should probably go hand-in-hand with deep and effective police reform, including the very rational and reasonable changes that many groups are proposing to make police accountable of their own actions and those of their companions, improving and enforcing better procedures, and requiring better instruction and more strict vetting process to enter a police force.
reply
I think the historical argument against police is disingenuous. You would not think that modern police everywhere harbor or uphold the values of child labor and abuse, wife-beating, underage drinking and drug-use or killing your neighbor in a preaccorded duel, even though at one point their predecessors maintained a status quo that included those things and many others. Claiming that the police is racist because its predecessors started off controlling slaves is daft AF.
I agree that just having the conversation about defunding or abolishing police is amazing. Unfortunately I also feel like the second proposition in particular (as much as it deviates from what abolishing would usually be interpreted as) is more than a bit naive. The sort of deep and wide-spanning changes that would be required for it to be effective would be extremely difficult to be significantly achievable within the timespan that most people claiming for it would acceptable or satisfying, and runs into significant hurdles, not the least being changing the underlying material conditions of depressed communities within a frame of ever-increasing income inequality, and a political system that is presenting you the option of the two oldest status-quo, pro-corporation candidates in US history.
But, naturally change has to start somewhere, and improving peoples' livelyhoods in tangible and effective ways could hardly not be a good proposition.
For the short-term it should probably go hand-in-hand with deep and effective police reform, including the very rational and reasonable changes that many groups are proposing to make police accountable of their own actions and those of their companions, improving and enforcing better procedures, and requiring better instruction and more strict vetting process to enter a police force.
reply
Dr
I think people are woefully forgetting that real criminals do exist and will continue to exist wether the police are there or not.
Also the whole defunding and abolishing thing is just as vague as saying black lives matter or shouting to end racism. It all sounds great and all but it completely ignores all the complexities and nuance of reality and also seems extremely opposed to even mentioning the existence of these complexities and nuances.
Of course people are going to be against it because there's no clear plan at all.
Now police funding is severely poorly utilized, that should be something to look into. Making a significant police reform, that's also something that needs to be done. The police obviously aren't properly trained but then fix that first before you make rash decisions based on emotional responses.
There's also a severe lack of communal self responsibility shown in all this, which is honestly quite sad. There's a lot of talk about how society should accept and cater to the black community and very little talk about how the black community can improve itself. This is a multifaceted complex issue and simple one sided talking points is not going to fix anything. There needs to be multiple viewpoints considered if there's ever going to be a hope of an actual solution to things. There needs to be change in many different places and many different ways if there's ever going to be a hope of going forward.
But hey, why be informed when you can use your feelings as your facts?
reply
I think people are woefully forgetting that real criminals do exist and will continue to exist wether the police are there or not.
Also the whole defunding and abolishing thing is just as vague as saying black lives matter or shouting to end racism. It all sounds great and all but it completely ignores all the complexities and nuance of reality and also seems extremely opposed to even mentioning the existence of these complexities and nuances.
Of course people are going to be against it because there's no clear plan at all.
Now police funding is severely poorly utilized, that should be something to look into. Making a significant police reform, that's also something that needs to be done. The police obviously aren't properly trained but then fix that first before you make rash decisions based on emotional responses.
There's also a severe lack of communal self responsibility shown in all this, which is honestly quite sad. There's a lot of talk about how society should accept and cater to the black community and very little talk about how the black community can improve itself. This is a multifaceted complex issue and simple one sided talking points is not going to fix anything. There needs to be multiple viewpoints considered if there's ever going to be a hope of an actual solution to things. There needs to be change in many different places and many different ways if there's ever going to be a hope of going forward.
But hey, why be informed when you can use your feelings as your facts?
reply
Chris
First off, I'm not condoning the murder of George Flloyd.
Why not reallocate certain parts of the police annual budget towards mandatory monthly psych evals and MMA training? Wouldn't this allow professional psychologists to weigh in on an officer's mental health and stress level?
Not everything is stems from work; sometimes you get a grumpy waiter and she/he's a total ass and gets fired because he/she's car got impounded and whatnot. Take that scenario and apply it to an off-duty officer.
I'm not savvy in MMA, but from what my friends have said, in MMA training you know the do's and do-not's in training. I've been told you have a better understanding of the human body and how blood flows to the brain along with average timing it takes for someone to go limp. I've also been told that this helps the person performing the action have a better understanding in assessing scenarios on whether or not to use deadly force.
I don't think defunding the police is the right course of action, but reallocating funds in the annual budget to focus on the mental health and scenario assessment of officers could be beneficial. Also understanding that some of those officers were new and may not have benefited from years of experience could be something to look into. Perhaps new training course for officers could be introduced (ie. in the event your superior is about to unnecessarily choke someone out, these are the proper actions to take.
Just a thought.
reply
First off, I'm not condoning the murder of George Flloyd.
Why not reallocate certain parts of the police annual budget towards mandatory monthly psych evals and MMA training? Wouldn't this allow professional psychologists to weigh in on an officer's mental health and stress level?
Not everything is stems from work; sometimes you get a grumpy waiter and she/he's a total ass and gets fired because he/she's car got impounded and whatnot. Take that scenario and apply it to an off-duty officer.
I'm not savvy in MMA, but from what my friends have said, in MMA training you know the do's and do-not's in training. I've been told you have a better understanding of the human body and how blood flows to the brain along with average timing it takes for someone to go limp. I've also been told that this helps the person performing the action have a better understanding in assessing scenarios on whether or not to use deadly force.
I don't think defunding the police is the right course of action, but reallocating funds in the annual budget to focus on the mental health and scenario assessment of officers could be beneficial. Also understanding that some of those officers were new and may not have benefited from years of experience could be something to look into. Perhaps new training course for officers could be introduced (ie. in the event your superior is about to unnecessarily choke someone out, these are the proper actions to take.
Just a thought.
reply
RT
In my country there are demonstrations that turn violent. As always there are those that hate the police becaus they interfere with criminal behaviour and cannot be thretened. I care about social i justice. But I think that how the US has tried to solve the issue has been wrong since the emancipation proclamation. And I think that the only sollution is to give the same opportunities to all children. No private schools, and violent students should be removed from the general student population through individual education at school, and education is viewed as an investment in the future from the state.
You cannot remove us and them from humanity. But by dong the groundwork people of all ethnicites can do lawful activities to improve their social status on a fair playing field. Private and elote schools is good for the elite. But for society and human progress, it is far better to croud-sorce problem solving and gave a high level of education.
Currently, the US society reinforces develeopmentally born fear or various aspects. And therefore you get a polarizing situation. I disagree with revolution, but I understand why people scream for it.
However, I do not partake in this, because the issue is not the same in my country, and I dont care about the US enough outside as an example to point towards. Conceptual freedom is not empirical freedom. now it is time to wipe my ass. Good luck with your class war.
reply
In my country there are demonstrations that turn violent. As always there are those that hate the police becaus they interfere with criminal behaviour and cannot be thretened. I care about social i justice. But I think that how the US has tried to solve the issue has been wrong since the emancipation proclamation. And I think that the only sollution is to give the same opportunities to all children. No private schools, and violent students should be removed from the general student population through individual education at school, and education is viewed as an investment in the future from the state.
You cannot remove us and them from humanity. But by dong the groundwork people of all ethnicites can do lawful activities to improve their social status on a fair playing field. Private and elote schools is good for the elite. But for society and human progress, it is far better to croud-sorce problem solving and gave a high level of education.
Currently, the US society reinforces develeopmentally born fear or various aspects. And therefore you get a polarizing situation. I disagree with revolution, but I understand why people scream for it.
However, I do not partake in this, because the issue is not the same in my country, and I dont care about the US enough outside as an example to point towards. Conceptual freedom is not empirical freedom. now it is time to wipe my ass. Good luck with your class war.
reply
Merry
On the 'Defund the Police' thing, whilst I agree that the US police are ridiculously over-militarised and that police get called to things they aren't necessarily best placed to deal with, but lots of people seem to suggest situations where you don't need the police. but you actually kinda do. You can't just send unequipped alternative emergency services into volatile (and often multifaceted) situations. For example, people have been suggesting domestic abuse or mental health emergencies. In both cases, the situation can turn violent, and especially for domestic abuse situations, people may need to be arrested.
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You could have hybrid services - e. g. people trained to help in domestic abuse situations who are also armed and capable of arrests. That might be a good idea. But there are issues to resolve, it would require dispatchers be relatively well-informed (which I imagine they not always are, it might make it harder to respond where more than one type of crime was being committed and you could also inadvertently create a kind of 'hyper-police', who deal exclusively with clearly dangerous situations and are thus even more trigger-happy.
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I'm also not sure hybrid services are something 'defund the police' protestors would be happy with?
reply
On the 'Defund the Police' thing, whilst I agree that the US police are ridiculously over-militarised and that police get called to things they aren't necessarily best placed to deal with, but lots of people seem to suggest situations where you don't need the police. but you actually kinda do. You can't just send unequipped alternative emergency services into volatile (and often multifaceted) situations. For example, people have been suggesting domestic abuse or mental health emergencies. In both cases, the situation can turn violent, and especially for domestic abuse situations, people may need to be arrested.
-
You could have hybrid services - e. g. people trained to help in domestic abuse situations who are also armed and capable of arrests. That might be a good idea. But there are issues to resolve, it would require dispatchers be relatively well-informed (which I imagine they not always are, it might make it harder to respond where more than one type of crime was being committed and you could also inadvertently create a kind of 'hyper-police', who deal exclusively with clearly dangerous situations and are thus even more trigger-happy.
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I'm also not sure hybrid services are something 'defund the police' protestors would be happy with?
reply
Kyle
I agree that something has to change, but the way these changes that defunding or abolishing the police seem to be talked about seem to include not arresting or jailing thieves or other crooks. I don t believe you can have a system of justice in which the wronged parties feel they have gotten justice without imprisoning the offender for some period of time or at the very least forcing the person who did it to replace what they damaged or stole, without any loopholes if they re judgement proof or can t afford it. It seems to me like they re talking about mediating with criminals, seeing what led them to rob someone and giving them the things they need to not rob someone, but once someone has already been robbed there needs to be justice for the person affected, not just the person who committed it, even if maybe that person is better rehabilitated than our current system. I think prison reform, making our current systems more effective in keeping people from reoffending are needed rather than abolishing that system altogether and letting that persons community help them is fine and good but not at the expense of the person who was victimized having some semblance of justice that they were punished in some way.
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I agree that something has to change, but the way these changes that defunding or abolishing the police seem to be talked about seem to include not arresting or jailing thieves or other crooks. I don t believe you can have a system of justice in which the wronged parties feel they have gotten justice without imprisoning the offender for some period of time or at the very least forcing the person who did it to replace what they damaged or stole, without any loopholes if they re judgement proof or can t afford it. It seems to me like they re talking about mediating with criminals, seeing what led them to rob someone and giving them the things they need to not rob someone, but once someone has already been robbed there needs to be justice for the person affected, not just the person who committed it, even if maybe that person is better rehabilitated than our current system. I think prison reform, making our current systems more effective in keeping people from reoffending are needed rather than abolishing that system altogether and letting that persons community help them is fine and good but not at the expense of the person who was victimized having some semblance of justice that they were punished in some way.
reply
bigheverly
Doing something to symbolize some other thing (kneeing translates to stop racism and police brutality ) and you do it during a thing that has symbolic representation already (where you re asked to stand and remain quiet. People are gonna get the wrong idea. They aren t mad that you want to fight police brutality but this whole thing before large events where we sing the nation anthem and its woo hoo America a lot of people actual see that as honoring those in the armed services instead of just meat head American BS and in most circumstances they actually say and now to honor our men and women. here s so and so to sing he national anthem so you re taking an event that has symbolic value to (how many parents, brothers, sisters, children do you think veterans have) a lot of people. Who then see you kneeling during this thing where you re supposed to be standing and in solidarity. I just see where people are coming from, sure nobody gets physically hurt but you could argue the same to n word, nobody was assaulted yet it still hurts. I think there s a better way to get your message across than disrespecting veterans as a whole and I hope we find a way to do it.
reply
Doing something to symbolize some other thing (kneeing translates to stop racism and police brutality ) and you do it during a thing that has symbolic representation already (where you re asked to stand and remain quiet. People are gonna get the wrong idea. They aren t mad that you want to fight police brutality but this whole thing before large events where we sing the nation anthem and its woo hoo America a lot of people actual see that as honoring those in the armed services instead of just meat head American BS and in most circumstances they actually say and now to honor our men and women. here s so and so to sing he national anthem so you re taking an event that has symbolic value to (how many parents, brothers, sisters, children do you think veterans have) a lot of people. Who then see you kneeling during this thing where you re supposed to be standing and in solidarity. I just see where people are coming from, sure nobody gets physically hurt but you could argue the same to n word, nobody was assaulted yet it still hurts. I think there s a better way to get your message across than disrespecting veterans as a whole and I hope we find a way to do it.
reply
Raziel354
I feel conflicted by the police defunding, although allocating resources to other areas is what we definitely need, is important to know the situation in our country. Not only are we still in a country with a lot of armed citizens, we also have a lot of issues that need to be solved currently and can't wait for these programs to get a chance to flourish. The first step should of been to solve the issue with the law enforcement system, the one that lets them get away with assault and murder, and makes them impossible to sue in such situations; making sure that they do face consequences is a step in the right direction. Next thing would be an internal investigation on officers with many complains, remove them from the force, and if necessary prosecute them. Next we make body cams mandatory for them, making sure they know their performance is being watched, making it illegal also to turn them off. Then finally we slowly allocate resources into the communities, making sure that gainful employment and mental health are addressed so crime can decrease. I feel we are trying to do too much in one go, this could bite us back on the butt.
reply
I feel conflicted by the police defunding, although allocating resources to other areas is what we definitely need, is important to know the situation in our country. Not only are we still in a country with a lot of armed citizens, we also have a lot of issues that need to be solved currently and can't wait for these programs to get a chance to flourish. The first step should of been to solve the issue with the law enforcement system, the one that lets them get away with assault and murder, and makes them impossible to sue in such situations; making sure that they do face consequences is a step in the right direction. Next thing would be an internal investigation on officers with many complains, remove them from the force, and if necessary prosecute them. Next we make body cams mandatory for them, making sure they know their performance is being watched, making it illegal also to turn them off. Then finally we slowly allocate resources into the communities, making sure that gainful employment and mental health are addressed so crime can decrease. I feel we are trying to do too much in one go, this could bite us back on the butt.
reply
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