Intel Fights Back - Arc Battlemage, Xe2 GPUs, & Changing Hyper-Threading
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Date: 2024-06-04
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Comments and reviews: 20
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Assuming the diagram for the Xe core are close enough in size to the real thing, then they definitely beefed up the RT core, it is like 1:1 for RT core compared to the actual Xe cor (Nvidia is like 1/4 of the size). Smaller AI core relative to the normal compute core vs Nvidia (Nvidia is like 4/10 dedicated to the AI core).
Again, this is assuming that the diagram size is proportional to the real thing. It might be just for presentation purposes.
I think Lunar Lake, architecture wise, is really interesting and impressive at the same time. My main issue is that it looks expensive to produce! And unlike before, a lot of the stuff in Lunar Lake is being outsourced to TSMC thus Intel can't really sell it for cheap like they did with 14th gen and older large part of the tile is using 3nm advanced packaging. You look Meteor Lake recommended customer pricing (customer as in your Asus, MSI, Lenovo, etc), it is not cheap, at least as cheap as Phoenix APU. This 2nd gen Core Ultra probably going to be even more expensive unless Intel is feeling generous.
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Assuming the diagram for the Xe core are close enough in size to the real thing, then they definitely beefed up the RT core, it is like 1:1 for RT core compared to the actual Xe cor (Nvidia is like 1/4 of the size). Smaller AI core relative to the normal compute core vs Nvidia (Nvidia is like 4/10 dedicated to the AI core).
Again, this is assuming that the diagram size is proportional to the real thing. It might be just for presentation purposes.
I think Lunar Lake, architecture wise, is really interesting and impressive at the same time. My main issue is that it looks expensive to produce! And unlike before, a lot of the stuff in Lunar Lake is being outsourced to TSMC thus Intel can't really sell it for cheap like they did with 14th gen and older large part of the tile is using 3nm advanced packaging. You look Meteor Lake recommended customer pricing (customer as in your Asus, MSI, Lenovo, etc), it is not cheap, at least as cheap as Phoenix APU. This 2nd gen Core Ultra probably going to be even more expensive unless Intel is feeling generous.
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pino_de_vogel
Seeing this i really see fragments of improvement and im worried that these cards wont be all that much of a improvement where intel really needs to have massive 75% gains over arc.
And the problem with no hyperthreading may be viewable at 9700k vs 9900k. The 9700k was outdated really fast because it lacked threads for some games and especially applications. A 6 core 12 thread 5600 beat it quite fast.. They may be in the right here but they may massively shoot themselves in the foot with this. Or they need to go to more then 8 p cores which i doubt.
And E-Cores are NOT a alternative to hyperthreading. most games still cannot use them correctly and windows does not assign tasks correctly. I dislike them as they don't seem usefull for gamig at all.
And the whole AI makes me gag by now. iots not artificial its just programmed abolities and it certainly is not intelligent. It's just some fancy algorithms. None of them can trully think so not true AI.
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Seeing this i really see fragments of improvement and im worried that these cards wont be all that much of a improvement where intel really needs to have massive 75% gains over arc.
And the problem with no hyperthreading may be viewable at 9700k vs 9900k. The 9700k was outdated really fast because it lacked threads for some games and especially applications. A 6 core 12 thread 5600 beat it quite fast.. They may be in the right here but they may massively shoot themselves in the foot with this. Or they need to go to more then 8 p cores which i doubt.
And E-Cores are NOT a alternative to hyperthreading. most games still cannot use them correctly and windows does not assign tasks correctly. I dislike them as they don't seem usefull for gamig at all.
And the whole AI makes me gag by now. iots not artificial its just programmed abolities and it certainly is not intelligent. It's just some fancy algorithms. None of them can trully think so not true AI.
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3800S1
A fun thought, if I were to buy an intel card, I would have bought the same amount of intel cards new as I did nvidia and more than what I bought ATi.
My first new card was the Intel i740, then I got the ATi 9200SE, then nvidia 6600GT, then eventually 9800 GTX. And I've only had a few used cards between then and now. Still using the GTX 980 which in hindsight was a bad buy even though I got it at a good price not long after Pascal launched from a friend, the Vram buffer with 4GB was just garbage even then. Haven't touched PC upgrading/building since.
Can't justify nvida prices and they have no vram as usual, AMD not that compelling at my typical budget range and not the best choice for my applications.
Intel peeked my interest, but near impossible to get in my country and only the small vram models listed not in stock, never got the 16gb listed.
These might be decent one can hope.
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A fun thought, if I were to buy an intel card, I would have bought the same amount of intel cards new as I did nvidia and more than what I bought ATi.
My first new card was the Intel i740, then I got the ATi 9200SE, then nvidia 6600GT, then eventually 9800 GTX. And I've only had a few used cards between then and now. Still using the GTX 980 which in hindsight was a bad buy even though I got it at a good price not long after Pascal launched from a friend, the Vram buffer with 4GB was just garbage even then. Haven't touched PC upgrading/building since.
Can't justify nvida prices and they have no vram as usual, AMD not that compelling at my typical budget range and not the best choice for my applications.
Intel peeked my interest, but near impossible to get in my country and only the small vram models listed not in stock, never got the 16gb listed.
These might be decent one can hope.
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creed5248
They say what comes around goes around and I feel Intel definitely have it coming . They have been greedy and have even bribed companies to use their products in the past and maybe even are still doing it today Even after all this .. I still hope for them to succeed and just do better . I switched to AMD many years ago when they / Intel were charging a premium for the privilege to overclock a CPU . AMD unlocked theirs and even provided software so that any computer enthusiast could do it . I have not regretted it either and even at one time was going to do an Intel build ... but glad I didn't ... because the AMD solution was so much better .
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They say what comes around goes around and I feel Intel definitely have it coming . They have been greedy and have even bribed companies to use their products in the past and maybe even are still doing it today Even after all this .. I still hope for them to succeed and just do better . I switched to AMD many years ago when they / Intel were charging a premium for the privilege to overclock a CPU . AMD unlocked theirs and even provided software so that any computer enthusiast could do it . I have not regretted it either and even at one time was going to do an Intel build ... but glad I didn't ... because the AMD solution was so much better .
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SilverKnight16
I still own an Arc a750, despite me swapping out to an RX 7800 XT. The wild swings in FPS in CPU intensive areas is the reason I switched (that and I got a smoking good deal on the AMD card), but I can't bring myself to get rid of it, because every time I hear about a big uplift in performance, I pop it back in and play on it for a few days to see what it feels like. All things being equal, it's made huuuuge gains since I've bought it, and if Battlemage can alleviate/fix the weird CPU utilization causing the framerate to tank, I think they'll have a serious winner on their hands.
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I still own an Arc a750, despite me swapping out to an RX 7800 XT. The wild swings in FPS in CPU intensive areas is the reason I switched (that and I got a smoking good deal on the AMD card), but I can't bring myself to get rid of it, because every time I hear about a big uplift in performance, I pop it back in and play on it for a few days to see what it feels like. All things being equal, it's made huuuuge gains since I've bought it, and if Battlemage can alleviate/fix the weird CPU utilization causing the framerate to tank, I think they'll have a serious winner on their hands.
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Greez1337
I mean, we have enough cores for 99% of people's workloads. Getting rid of HT is not a big deal. Big deal is potential latency of having an LP core and E core have to dictate what your P-cores do if you want all the core benefits. Previous gens you could just disable e cores, or disable HT at will to suit your workloads, that doesn't seem like an option anymore. I would just be weary of a first generation of a brand new thing.
Oh, right, i guess i should say Intel bad, AMD good. More AMD cores good, more intel cores bad.
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I mean, we have enough cores for 99% of people's workloads. Getting rid of HT is not a big deal. Big deal is potential latency of having an LP core and E core have to dictate what your P-cores do if you want all the core benefits. Previous gens you could just disable e cores, or disable HT at will to suit your workloads, that doesn't seem like an option anymore. I would just be weary of a first generation of a brand new thing.
Oh, right, i guess i should say Intel bad, AMD good. More AMD cores good, more intel cores bad.
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mindinversions4487
This is probably the only place I can ask this and get a technical answer: IIRC Hyperthreading was introduced to combat the performance loss against AMD [Circa socket 939 iirc] as originally Intel chips had a redundancy that executed and then verified proper execution. AMD didn't have that, which is why their processors worked so much better. Intel eventually adapted those redundant instructions into hyperthreading to boost performance. That was a long time ago, am I remembering this more or less correctly
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This is probably the only place I can ask this and get a technical answer: IIRC Hyperthreading was introduced to combat the performance loss against AMD [Circa socket 939 iirc] as originally Intel chips had a redundancy that executed and then verified proper execution. AMD didn't have that, which is why their processors worked so much better. Intel eventually adapted those redundant instructions into hyperthreading to boost performance. That was a long time ago, am I remembering this more or less correctly
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leeloodog
I had arc a750 from day one it's totally been solid. I'm using it right now. The first few months i had to tinker more. I've not had any stability or system reliability issues. The perf really isn't bad esp for what i paid at the time. It 's too bad that so much of what happens is hardware dependent, hard to change if you get something wrong.
Personally the intel gpu stuff is the most interesting content to me because it's like a new gpu from the ground up. This is very interesting to me.
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I had arc a750 from day one it's totally been solid. I'm using it right now. The first few months i had to tinker more. I've not had any stability or system reliability issues. The perf really isn't bad esp for what i paid at the time. It 's too bad that so much of what happens is hardware dependent, hard to change if you get something wrong.
Personally the intel gpu stuff is the most interesting content to me because it's like a new gpu from the ground up. This is very interesting to me.
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anarex0929
The ryzen 7 mobile ZEN is crazy impressive for 28watts.
They're able to do 38 Topps on the 8 core/16 thread with NPU hardware.
That's just on the APU. That's not including additional external video card or other accelerators.
That is crazy for a APU running 28watts. They're catching up with ARM.
But I'd rather have a Apu from AMD then intel, at least it's backwards compatible unlike intel ARC hardware.
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The ryzen 7 mobile ZEN is crazy impressive for 28watts.
They're able to do 38 Topps on the 8 core/16 thread with NPU hardware.
That's just on the APU. That's not including additional external video card or other accelerators.
That is crazy for a APU running 28watts. They're catching up with ARM.
But I'd rather have a Apu from AMD then intel, at least it's backwards compatible unlike intel ARC hardware.
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Sp3cialk304
I hope Intel does great in the GPU market. As someone who plays single player new releases it would be nice to have an option on what GPU brand to get. If you care about image quality and modern features at the mid range and up Nvidia is the only option right now. Intel has shown so far that they understand modern games and what modern gamers want. They atleast try to make all around cards.
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I hope Intel does great in the GPU market. As someone who plays single player new releases it would be nice to have an option on what GPU brand to get. If you care about image quality and modern features at the mid range and up Nvidia is the only option right now. Intel has shown so far that they understand modern games and what modern gamers want. They atleast try to make all around cards.
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Anton1699
From what I remember, Intel specifically chose SIMD8 for its benefits to ray tracing performance. Ray tracing shaders often diverge depending on the materials hit, so having wider SIMD units could leave large parts of the GPU idle. Nvidia introduced shader reordering to rectify this, I'm curious to see how this move from Intel will affect raytracing performance on Battlemage.
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From what I remember, Intel specifically chose SIMD8 for its benefits to ray tracing performance. Ray tracing shaders often diverge depending on the materials hit, so having wider SIMD units could leave large parts of the GPU idle. Nvidia introduced shader reordering to rectify this, I'm curious to see how this move from Intel will affect raytracing performance on Battlemage.
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bobmcbob4399
This is encouraging news, but what I want the Intel HW team to focus on is improvements to the metratexel post port buffer homogenisation pipelines. Obvious gains to be made which will further enable high dynamic enterogenous hyperplexing throughput delivery to the sub-asynchronous fetch enqueuement delivery underplex.
I mean, come on. This should be obvious by now.
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This is encouraging news, but what I want the Intel HW team to focus on is improvements to the metratexel post port buffer homogenisation pipelines. Obvious gains to be made which will further enable high dynamic enterogenous hyperplexing throughput delivery to the sub-asynchronous fetch enqueuement delivery underplex.
I mean, come on. This should be obvious by now.
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EinSwitzer
dont worry about software or drivers, you see what im doing with AI , instead of having to prestructure anything it will select whats best based on what the AI harddware has to do , then it can go above and beyond its original software set and even make little custom files and structures as if the chips were developers ,,. not my fault the pc devs are lazy and lie
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dont worry about software or drivers, you see what im doing with AI , instead of having to prestructure anything it will select whats best based on what the AI harddware has to do , then it can go above and beyond its original software set and even make little custom files and structures as if the chips were developers ,,. not my fault the pc devs are lazy and lie
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riri-lg4cv
really want battlemage to be good. i got a cheap A380 as a second GPU for av1 encoding and rendering and its been a game changer. if they make a solid higher tier GPU that could replace my 1080TI as an upgrade to both, I'd really consider it. AMD 7000 and nvidia 4000 just don't have the performance per dollar for me to justify them at literally any tier lol.
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really want battlemage to be good. i got a cheap A380 as a second GPU for av1 encoding and rendering and its been a game changer. if they make a solid higher tier GPU that could replace my 1080TI as an upgrade to both, I'd really consider it. AMD 7000 and nvidia 4000 just don't have the performance per dollar for me to justify them at literally any tier lol.
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claybirdyshaw5737
Something feels fishy with removing Hyperthreading. That has been a huge market point for decades. I am wondering it has more to do with they just couldn't make it work with the changes in the architecture so they feed us a line of BS to make up for it. I hope they are being honest, but it is Intel at a keynote... Of course they are not being honest.
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Something feels fishy with removing Hyperthreading. That has been a huge market point for decades. I am wondering it has more to do with they just couldn't make it work with the changes in the architecture so they feed us a line of BS to make up for it. I hope they are being honest, but it is Intel at a keynote... Of course they are not being honest.
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Chrissy717
I have a question about all of this. I don't really understand how drivers work and how driver optimisations are done, but from the sounds of it, Intel is reworking quite a lot compared to their previous card. Wouldn't that mean that the previous optimisations are kinda wasted since these cards behave differently now
Or am I not understanding something
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I have a question about all of this. I don't really understand how drivers work and how driver optimisations are done, but from the sounds of it, Intel is reworking quite a lot compared to their previous card. Wouldn't that mean that the previous optimisations are kinda wasted since these cards behave differently now
Or am I not understanding something
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itstheweirdguy
I'd love Intel to have a chart with things in it like Directx 9 and OpenGL. With the charts being higher than the last product. Is Intel going to jump up the number of e-cores to get them back up to 32 threads....they will at least be able to call them all cores and not say threads anymore, which I'm so sick of.
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I'd love Intel to have a chart with things in it like Directx 9 and OpenGL. With the charts being higher than the last product. Is Intel going to jump up the number of e-cores to get them back up to 32 threads....they will at least be able to call them all cores and not say threads anymore, which I'm so sick of.
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billchildress9756
All I want is to see Intel come out with a Powerful GPU to compete with Overpriced competition! I'm still running my A770 and it has served me just fine. They have come a LOnnnngg way from i740.
We still have one of those cards downstairs somewhere and No I don't care about AI.
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All I want is to see Intel come out with a Powerful GPU to compete with Overpriced competition! I'm still running my A770 and it has served me just fine. They have come a LOnnnngg way from i740.
We still have one of those cards downstairs somewhere and No I don't care about AI.
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davd7571
Its pretty incredible what intel is doing with GPU's, AMD been in the games for decade's and still struggle to beat Nvidia but here comes intel, totally new started off rough but keep making leaps and bounds forward, still not beating AMD but also not small increments of improvement
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Its pretty incredible what intel is doing with GPU's, AMD been in the games for decade's and still struggle to beat Nvidia but here comes intel, totally new started off rough but keep making leaps and bounds forward, still not beating AMD but also not small increments of improvement
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gamersnexus
the death of SMT combined with the continuous flopping of Radeon there is a future where Intel catches up in GPU and AMD stumbles and Intel wipes the floor in the no-SMT era intel might finally start to wipe AMD off of desktop and server then qualcomm wipes them off laptop
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the death of SMT combined with the continuous flopping of Radeon there is a future where Intel catches up in GPU and AMD stumbles and Intel wipes the floor in the no-SMT era intel might finally start to wipe AMD off of desktop and server then qualcomm wipes them off laptop
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