My Customer Is Getting Shafted By The Local Toyota Dealer
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Date: 2025-01-11
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Comments and reviews: 20
snooketcher
ChatGPT gave a nice explanation.
-Test the Circuit: The ECU can intermittently send a brief pulse of power to the fuel pump to monitor its electrical characteristics, including the current draw. This pulse is short enough not to cause significant fuel pressure changes but long enough to allow the ECU to assess the current.
-Check for Over-current: By pulsing the fuel pump, the ECU can determine if the pump or its associated circuit is drawing too much current. If the current exceeds the predefined threshold during the pulse, the ECU will recognize a potential fault and take protective actions.
-Diagnostic Strategy: Pulsing the fuel pump as part of a diagnostic routine allows the ECU to identify intermittent faults or early signs of failure in the fuel pump, wiring, or connectors. If an over-current event is detected during this process, the ECU can log a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) and protect the system by reducing or cutting off power to the fuel pump.
This method of briefly cycling the fuel pump is an efficient way to detect electrical issues without running the pump continuously, which could lead to further damage in case of a fault. However, not all Toyota models may use this pulsing strategy; it can vary based on model year, engine type, and ECU programming.
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ChatGPT gave a nice explanation.
-Test the Circuit: The ECU can intermittently send a brief pulse of power to the fuel pump to monitor its electrical characteristics, including the current draw. This pulse is short enough not to cause significant fuel pressure changes but long enough to allow the ECU to assess the current.
-Check for Over-current: By pulsing the fuel pump, the ECU can determine if the pump or its associated circuit is drawing too much current. If the current exceeds the predefined threshold during the pulse, the ECU will recognize a potential fault and take protective actions.
-Diagnostic Strategy: Pulsing the fuel pump as part of a diagnostic routine allows the ECU to identify intermittent faults or early signs of failure in the fuel pump, wiring, or connectors. If an over-current event is detected during this process, the ECU can log a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) and protect the system by reducing or cutting off power to the fuel pump.
This method of briefly cycling the fuel pump is an efficient way to detect electrical issues without running the pump continuously, which could lead to further damage in case of a fault. However, not all Toyota models may use this pulsing strategy; it can vary based on model year, engine type, and ECU programming.
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joshelkins6189
So many people commenting on here are so knowledgeable about dealership techs! It’s amazing you vast amount of experience. I’ve worked at a Toyota dealership for 25 years! I pride myself in problem solving like Eric does. I learn from him and there is some I could teach him on Toyota. However, a lot of you are forgetting how our hands are tied with Toyota, if its warranty they call the shots. They don’t pay to diagnose a car that the customer is most likely waiting for and in a huge hurry! The technology in these cars changes every 6 months and is impossible to keep up on! Don’t forget about all the recalls that come out daily!
In short, I’ve never met a tech that’s out to get the customer, there are quite a few that don’t carry the knowledge needed for these new cars and burn out their team leaders asking questions. Before you jump to Judge, try understanding all the variables and understand it requires a ton of patience that customers don’t allow anymore.
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So many people commenting on here are so knowledgeable about dealership techs! It’s amazing you vast amount of experience. I’ve worked at a Toyota dealership for 25 years! I pride myself in problem solving like Eric does. I learn from him and there is some I could teach him on Toyota. However, a lot of you are forgetting how our hands are tied with Toyota, if its warranty they call the shots. They don’t pay to diagnose a car that the customer is most likely waiting for and in a huge hurry! The technology in these cars changes every 6 months and is impossible to keep up on! Don’t forget about all the recalls that come out daily!
In short, I’ve never met a tech that’s out to get the customer, there are quite a few that don’t carry the knowledge needed for these new cars and burn out their team leaders asking questions. Before you jump to Judge, try understanding all the variables and understand it requires a ton of patience that customers don’t allow anymore.
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kairos_01-d5d
I have a 2002 Jeep Liberty I got in 2015 from my SIL. Engine was messed up so I replaced it and in 2021 there was low compression in cylinder 5. It got sent back and rebuilt and after reinstalling by a shop it had this issue. Fired up when cold but after heat soaking a bit would just turn over until I gave a touch of fuel. They said bad fuel pump and they replaced it twice. Still had the problem of not starting after heat soak. I had a cold air intake so I installed that and the issue went away. Eventually I replaced the injectors and coils and plugs. Installed the stock intake and the problem returns, With the cold air intake it starts fine when hot. No idea what is really wrong but I haven't put the stock intake back on for a while.
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I have a 2002 Jeep Liberty I got in 2015 from my SIL. Engine was messed up so I replaced it and in 2021 there was low compression in cylinder 5. It got sent back and rebuilt and after reinstalling by a shop it had this issue. Fired up when cold but after heat soaking a bit would just turn over until I gave a touch of fuel. They said bad fuel pump and they replaced it twice. Still had the problem of not starting after heat soak. I had a cold air intake so I installed that and the issue went away. Eventually I replaced the injectors and coils and plugs. Installed the stock intake and the problem returns, With the cold air intake it starts fine when hot. No idea what is really wrong but I haven't put the stock intake back on for a while.
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nathannolte5866
Well done sir. Always look forward to seeing your videos when they drop.
Just wanted to share my knowledge and experience here:
That pump didn’t sound healthy at all. Your measurement of the pump current solidified it when you looked at the pulses briefly. Multi-pole electric motors when running should produce an even uniform waveform with no dropouts or variance. Assuming voltage supply is constant of course.
Your pump having a varying current per pulse points directly to failing/failed bearings in the pump motor assembly.
Pretty quick way to do predictive failure and intermittent diags. The test method you used here is also great for blower motors. Especially those hard to reach ones.
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Well done sir. Always look forward to seeing your videos when they drop.
Just wanted to share my knowledge and experience here:
That pump didn’t sound healthy at all. Your measurement of the pump current solidified it when you looked at the pulses briefly. Multi-pole electric motors when running should produce an even uniform waveform with no dropouts or variance. Assuming voltage supply is constant of course.
Your pump having a varying current per pulse points directly to failing/failed bearings in the pump motor assembly.
Pretty quick way to do predictive failure and intermittent diags. The test method you used here is also great for blower motors. Especially those hard to reach ones.
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tyflesh
As other have replied is it's a darn shame the customer had to go to SMA 1st! When the dealer's tech are or should be the best of the best! But Eric has proved it time and time again that the dealers think they know it all! And as we see via SMA is the expect these air head dealership need to send there repairs to! Once again Eric turns the mechanic world on it's head again! You have to love this guy/gal team! If I have mechanical issues I can't figure out it would be well worth me to trailer my vehicle from Cleveland to Avoca, NY to master at his craft! Damn straight, Love your videos you have helped me diagnose several issue! We appreciate your videos full of wisdom and truth on these issues! Thank you!
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As other have replied is it's a darn shame the customer had to go to SMA 1st! When the dealer's tech are or should be the best of the best! But Eric has proved it time and time again that the dealers think they know it all! And as we see via SMA is the expect these air head dealership need to send there repairs to! Once again Eric turns the mechanic world on it's head again! You have to love this guy/gal team! If I have mechanical issues I can't figure out it would be well worth me to trailer my vehicle from Cleveland to Avoca, NY to master at his craft! Damn straight, Love your videos you have helped me diagnose several issue! We appreciate your videos full of wisdom and truth on these issues! Thank you!
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erikgodo2032
Electronics guy here, but really, you know what a current clamp and an oscilloscope is! Not shabby.
It is easiest to just turn off the output if a high current is sensed, compared to having an extra part that throttles down the current. The fuel pump ECU basically has a switch (transistor) and that switch cannot handle infinite current. Similar to a relay contact also cannot handle infinite current. So there is a circuit that detects high current! And the ECU turns off the switch. Retrying it every few seconds is a good idea. It might start working.
I was surprised the fuel pump sound didn't tip you off right away. Sounds like it has marbles inside. You need a quiet shop to hear that though.
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Electronics guy here, but really, you know what a current clamp and an oscilloscope is! Not shabby.
It is easiest to just turn off the output if a high current is sensed, compared to having an extra part that throttles down the current. The fuel pump ECU basically has a switch (transistor) and that switch cannot handle infinite current. Similar to a relay contact also cannot handle infinite current. So there is a circuit that detects high current! And the ECU turns off the switch. Retrying it every few seconds is a good idea. It might start working.
I was surprised the fuel pump sound didn't tip you off right away. Sounds like it has marbles inside. You need a quiet shop to hear that though.
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BigEbikesports
Dealer mechanics are nothing but parts guess changers. I do transmission tuning on the famous 6l80e for a transmission shop and let me tell you how GM has screwed so many with their software mapping trying to lock up 0 slip a woven carbon fiber torque converter clutch that is not designed to have 0 slip. Many people think the opposite that it has too much slip, nope it is designed to slip but when you tune it try and lock at max cruising torque the extra pressure against the TCC destroys the already thin woven carbon fiber lining. This is how GM tuned the TCC to get more mpg to satisfy the EPA. Oh also lets not go down the AFM/DOD rabbit hole too LOL
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Dealer mechanics are nothing but parts guess changers. I do transmission tuning on the famous 6l80e for a transmission shop and let me tell you how GM has screwed so many with their software mapping trying to lock up 0 slip a woven carbon fiber torque converter clutch that is not designed to have 0 slip. Many people think the opposite that it has too much slip, nope it is designed to slip but when you tune it try and lock at max cruising torque the extra pressure against the TCC destroys the already thin woven carbon fiber lining. This is how GM tuned the TCC to get more mpg to satisfy the EPA. Oh also lets not go down the AFM/DOD rabbit hole too LOL
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MadBrotherMichael
As someone who has worked for Toyota for almost 11 years, and has worked at 3 different dealerships, what an abysmal attempt of service from the dealership this truck was at. That service department needs to have a conversation with the shop foreman/team lead. Anyone with a basic amount of diagnostic ability could've determined that the low pressure fuel pump on that truck was causing those symptoms. A process of duplicating the concern, pulling codes, checking FFD, as well as a pressure test before anything else. Unfortunately, some dealerships don't operate as well as others.
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As someone who has worked for Toyota for almost 11 years, and has worked at 3 different dealerships, what an abysmal attempt of service from the dealership this truck was at. That service department needs to have a conversation with the shop foreman/team lead. Anyone with a basic amount of diagnostic ability could've determined that the low pressure fuel pump on that truck was causing those symptoms. A process of duplicating the concern, pulling codes, checking FFD, as well as a pressure test before anything else. Unfortunately, some dealerships don't operate as well as others.
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Sandy-oy2lr
I had a similar case with my C6 Corvette. After 100Kmi, I started having a crank but no start situation. It was both random and extremely frustrating. To make the story short, it turned out to be 2 concurrent issues. The 10Amp FP circuit was carbonizing at the connectors and the FP was becoming intermittent. I'm guessing the motor brushes wore out. As the fuse/relay block was no longer available, a Painless 30A FP fuse/relay relocation harness was wired in to bypass the OE 10A circuit. Plus a new FP. No more intermittent start issues and the FP loves the 30A setup.
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I had a similar case with my C6 Corvette. After 100Kmi, I started having a crank but no start situation. It was both random and extremely frustrating. To make the story short, it turned out to be 2 concurrent issues. The 10Amp FP circuit was carbonizing at the connectors and the FP was becoming intermittent. I'm guessing the motor brushes wore out. As the fuse/relay block was no longer available, a Painless 30A FP fuse/relay relocation harness was wired in to bypass the OE 10A circuit. Plus a new FP. No more intermittent start issues and the FP loves the 30A setup.
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OldManBadly
What to me is most interesting is at the end of the day, this is all logic, all considering how to measure something to prove what you believe - or to get told something different.
When the video started I was pretty much on the fuel thing. I am old enough to know about vapor lock, which is sort of what this seemed like. For what it's worth, perhaps the heat has something to do with making it a little harder to pump the gas as well. who knows Good Diag and nice to see the dealer with their tail between their legs on this one.
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What to me is most interesting is at the end of the day, this is all logic, all considering how to measure something to prove what you believe - or to get told something different.
When the video started I was pretty much on the fuel thing. I am old enough to know about vapor lock, which is sort of what this seemed like. For what it's worth, perhaps the heat has something to do with making it a little harder to pump the gas as well. who knows Good Diag and nice to see the dealer with their tail between their legs on this one.
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rexmundi8154
Our local Toyota dealer got my elderly father in law not only to trade in his 3 year old car with like 8000 miles on it for some dumb loaded teenage boys wet dream car, when it was time for its first oil change I found a receipt for over $1000 in service fees. They tacked on every service item that could be done including nitrogen filled tires. I was so mad I thought I was gonna have a stroke. I couldn’t even go confront them about it because I was sure I’d end up in jail.
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Our local Toyota dealer got my elderly father in law not only to trade in his 3 year old car with like 8000 miles on it for some dumb loaded teenage boys wet dream car, when it was time for its first oil change I found a receipt for over $1000 in service fees. They tacked on every service item that could be done including nitrogen filled tires. I was so mad I thought I was gonna have a stroke. I couldn’t even go confront them about it because I was sure I’d end up in jail.
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eclectictech
Haven't yet watched the video, but recall another YT video on a different vehicle (can't recall if it was a Toyota or a Honda) that had similar symptoms that were caused by either a bad coil or plug (can't recall for sure ATM, I think it was an aftermarket coil. replacing the coil solved the problem IIRC - best explanation I remember was that the coil was likely causing an electromagnetic interference of some sort that was affecting the anti-theft system when warm)
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Haven't yet watched the video, but recall another YT video on a different vehicle (can't recall if it was a Toyota or a Honda) that had similar symptoms that were caused by either a bad coil or plug (can't recall for sure ATM, I think it was an aftermarket coil. replacing the coil solved the problem IIRC - best explanation I remember was that the coil was likely causing an electromagnetic interference of some sort that was affecting the anti-theft system when warm)
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CodyToyotafj13
It’s concerning to me that it is just assumed the Toyota dealer will get out the parts cannon and be wrong. I’m a Toyota MDT and the lead tech at our dealership I pride myself in not parts cannoning car and diagnosing them correctly the first time, so I really hate to see that dealers have that reputation. Not saying it’s not in some cases deserved but just disappointing I suppose. Great video though really nice breakdown of how to diag that system.
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It’s concerning to me that it is just assumed the Toyota dealer will get out the parts cannon and be wrong. I’m a Toyota MDT and the lead tech at our dealership I pride myself in not parts cannoning car and diagnosing them correctly the first time, so I really hate to see that dealers have that reputation. Not saying it’s not in some cases deserved but just disappointing I suppose. Great video though really nice breakdown of how to diag that system.
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jamesmaldonado5794
I had the same symptoms on my 4. 0 Tacoma at around 100k. Once the engine was warm and the truck would get shutoff it wouldn’t turn on till the engine was cold. Mind you it was erratic and would do it once every 3 or 4 months. Drove it like that to 223k until it began doing it daily. Mechanic found the issue and replaced the fuel pump with a carter unit and it hasn’t had a hiccup in years and we at 314k miles right now. Best vehicle ever bought
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I had the same symptoms on my 4. 0 Tacoma at around 100k. Once the engine was warm and the truck would get shutoff it wouldn’t turn on till the engine was cold. Mind you it was erratic and would do it once every 3 or 4 months. Drove it like that to 223k until it began doing it daily. Mechanic found the issue and replaced the fuel pump with a carter unit and it hasn’t had a hiccup in years and we at 314k miles right now. Best vehicle ever bought
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woolval52
So your customer had this video to show them your diagnosis Is the dealership asking you to train their technicians I'm always amazed at your logical thinking as you work thru these problems. Also, I went to my local library in Ocala, Florida and can now get online and pull info from Auto Repair Source, Motor Driven. I can pull up more info than I know what to do with! Thanks to you, I found this link. LOL, If you can fix it, I can try.
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So your customer had this video to show them your diagnosis Is the dealership asking you to train their technicians I'm always amazed at your logical thinking as you work thru these problems. Also, I went to my local library in Ocala, Florida and can now get online and pull info from Auto Repair Source, Motor Driven. I can pull up more info than I know what to do with! Thanks to you, I found this link. LOL, If you can fix it, I can try.
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frankroper3274
The dealerships probably pay by the job time that is on the books. This means the more the mechanic does the more he gets paid which is probably why they start at one end and go to the other replacing parts. If they just got paid by the hour there would be no reward for doing more work so they would do as little as possible to get the job done. It is called flag time. where they get a percentage. That is a downhill business.
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The dealerships probably pay by the job time that is on the books. This means the more the mechanic does the more he gets paid which is probably why they start at one end and go to the other replacing parts. If they just got paid by the hour there would be no reward for doing more work so they would do as little as possible to get the job done. It is called flag time. where they get a percentage. That is a downhill business.
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bobvarrica5541
I once had a computer replaced by a dealer to fix my problem. While leaving the dealership, I discovered the problem still existed. I went right back in and said that was not the problem. I said put the old part back and keep looking. He insisted on still charging me for the computer (that did not fix the problem) and the old one was in the dumpster. I said to go and get it, he said it had been emptied. Lying sack of sht!
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I once had a computer replaced by a dealer to fix my problem. While leaving the dealership, I discovered the problem still existed. I went right back in and said that was not the problem. I said put the old part back and keep looking. He insisted on still charging me for the computer (that did not fix the problem) and the old one was in the dumpster. I said to go and get it, he said it had been emptied. Lying sack of sht!
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tuccimane
In high school i had an auto class teacher who always taught his classes by this 1 saying. Anyone can change parts, few can actually diagnose the issue. Even when the repair was something we knew was wrong from dealing with the issue prior. He always made us walk him throughout our diagnostic process. Always making use of critical thinking has helped me out in life in general just not working on a vehicle. Love these videos.
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In high school i had an auto class teacher who always taught his classes by this 1 saying. Anyone can change parts, few can actually diagnose the issue. Even when the repair was something we knew was wrong from dealing with the issue prior. He always made us walk him throughout our diagnostic process. Always making use of critical thinking has helped me out in life in general just not working on a vehicle. Love these videos.
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mr8610
What is amazing to me is you are actually SPEAKING to your client/customer. I was actually told by my local Ford dealer that we usually don’t want technicians speaking directly with customers. when I asked to speak to the technician directly. How in the WORLD am I supposed to explain my issue when I have to translate it through a service advisor that usually has absolutely no idea as to what they’re even talking about
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What is amazing to me is you are actually SPEAKING to your client/customer. I was actually told by my local Ford dealer that we usually don’t want technicians speaking directly with customers. when I asked to speak to the technician directly. How in the WORLD am I supposed to explain my issue when I have to translate it through a service advisor that usually has absolutely no idea as to what they’re even talking about
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rubinbinder6292
Hey Eric. Electronics guy here. There is a component that is called a PTC fuse that is essentially a self-resetting thermal fuse. That’s likely what they used in the fuel pump module. They also could have had the micro-controller measure the current drop across a load sense resistor, which would actually be cheaper. Both could behave in the same way, pulsing when overloaded. Awesome find!
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Hey Eric. Electronics guy here. There is a component that is called a PTC fuse that is essentially a self-resetting thermal fuse. That’s likely what they used in the fuel pump module. They also could have had the micro-controller measure the current drop across a load sense resistor, which would actually be cheaper. Both could behave in the same way, pulsing when overloaded. Awesome find!
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