Thermostatic Radiator Traps - Steam heating HVAC
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Date: 2023-11-17
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Comments and reviews: 28
B19-G3o
The Engineering Mindset
My background mostly in motion control systems, so this isn't my forte, but couldn't you just get rid of the bellow and use a hollow steel ball that is slightly larger than the diameter of the hole? Add a plastic ring gasket or O-ring on the inside opening of the outlet to help make a good seal. When the water is low enough, the ball would be sitting over the hole, creating a seal to prevent the steam from entering the return. When the water is above the buoyancy point of the hollow steel ball, the ball would float, allowing water to pass till the level dropped low enough for the ball to once again block the outlet to the return. In theory, the buoyancy of the ball should keep a somewhat constant water level on the bottom of the radiator, since the pressure above the ball would be greater, holding the ball over the hole till the water rose enough that the force from the buoyancy of the ball overcomes the holding force caused by the difference in pressure.
Again, this isn't my field, but I'm just curious if there is a reason this isn't done, since it seems like a solution that, if plausible, would eliminate the 3-5 year life expectancy.
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The Engineering Mindset
My background mostly in motion control systems, so this isn't my forte, but couldn't you just get rid of the bellow and use a hollow steel ball that is slightly larger than the diameter of the hole? Add a plastic ring gasket or O-ring on the inside opening of the outlet to help make a good seal. When the water is low enough, the ball would be sitting over the hole, creating a seal to prevent the steam from entering the return. When the water is above the buoyancy point of the hollow steel ball, the ball would float, allowing water to pass till the level dropped low enough for the ball to once again block the outlet to the return. In theory, the buoyancy of the ball should keep a somewhat constant water level on the bottom of the radiator, since the pressure above the ball would be greater, holding the ball over the hole till the water rose enough that the force from the buoyancy of the ball overcomes the holding force caused by the difference in pressure.
Again, this isn't my field, but I'm just curious if there is a reason this isn't done, since it seems like a solution that, if plausible, would eliminate the 3-5 year life expectancy.
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Robin
What prevents the use of a sphere which density (in between liquid and gaseous water) would make it float in water (not obstructing the exit pipe) and sinking (resting on the circular joint) in vapor (obstructing, therefore closing, the exit pipe)?
(Sorry for the phrasing, I tried to put the TLDR question on a single first sentence, and am not fluent in english)
I have no background in material engineering and may be missing something obvious, without which I only have the feeling that this may provide the same open for liquid water, closed for gaseous water feature (almost) without any mecanical constraint (the repetitive contact between the ball-like-valve and the joint may not be negligible for the needed hermetic property of the couple, and also easier and cheaper to manifacture, install, maintenance (but maybe less tunable)
I'm not commenting often so I'll take this opportunity to thank you a lot for your videos and animations!
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What prevents the use of a sphere which density (in between liquid and gaseous water) would make it float in water (not obstructing the exit pipe) and sinking (resting on the circular joint) in vapor (obstructing, therefore closing, the exit pipe)?
(Sorry for the phrasing, I tried to put the TLDR question on a single first sentence, and am not fluent in english)
I have no background in material engineering and may be missing something obvious, without which I only have the feeling that this may provide the same open for liquid water, closed for gaseous water feature (almost) without any mecanical constraint (the repetitive contact between the ball-like-valve and the joint may not be negligible for the needed hermetic property of the couple, and also easier and cheaper to manifacture, install, maintenance (but maybe less tunable)
I'm not commenting often so I'll take this opportunity to thank you a lot for your videos and animations!
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lazy
please can you help a noob, can somebody tell me if i can wire a 3 pole
relay as a single pole, i think thats what i want/need, i needed a
relay to turn on and off from - 24vac, on the coil side-, 240v 35a on the
main load, and with out spending silly money i could only find a 3
pole one cheap, thats 35 amps, all i need it to do is when activated by
the 24v ac, allow the current of my 240v ac to pass to make the
circuit, and that can be just the live or the live and neutral, etc etc
if
it can be done, would wiring it so my live splits and goes in to all 3
poles and then out all 3 poles(when activated, to give more current,
as its for my mig welder (24v trigger, so more amps the better, thank
you
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please can you help a noob, can somebody tell me if i can wire a 3 pole
relay as a single pole, i think thats what i want/need, i needed a
relay to turn on and off from - 24vac, on the coil side-, 240v 35a on the
main load, and with out spending silly money i could only find a 3
pole one cheap, thats 35 amps, all i need it to do is when activated by
the 24v ac, allow the current of my 240v ac to pass to make the
circuit, and that can be just the live or the live and neutral, etc etc
if
it can be done, would wiring it so my live splits and goes in to all 3
poles and then out all 3 poles(when activated, to give more current,
as its for my mig welder (24v trigger, so more amps the better, thank
you
reply
Michel
Years ago I was servicing a steam system with thermostatic steam traps on the rads and no thermostatic temp controls on the rads, the only control was an indoor outdoor controller, Working press 1 psi or less, Along with sagging condensate lines causing condensate problems, some rads would not heat up, That was a hellish system to operate properly. Those thermostatic steam traps were bi-metal disks.
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Years ago I was servicing a steam system with thermostatic steam traps on the rads and no thermostatic temp controls on the rads, the only control was an indoor outdoor controller, Working press 1 psi or less, Along with sagging condensate lines causing condensate problems, some rads would not heat up, That was a hellish system to operate properly. Those thermostatic steam traps were bi-metal disks.
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Mark
here is what I don't get. Steam rads have air vents about half way up. They close when steam hits them and open when they cool to let the condensate drain out so a vacuum does not form. But since when the radiator is operating there is both steam and condensate in them, how does the condensate drain without the steam vent opening? And if it opens with steam inside, then steam is let out.
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here is what I don't get. Steam rads have air vents about half way up. They close when steam hits them and open when they cool to let the condensate drain out so a vacuum does not form. But since when the radiator is operating there is both steam and condensate in them, how does the condensate drain without the steam vent opening? And if it opens with steam inside, then steam is let out.
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BradyT918
The steam radiators in my apartment have the inlet and outlet on the same level. Wonder how that affects the operation of the system. Granted I'm on the ground floor and the heating until is in the basement below my apartment buy it feeds steam to multiple floors for 30+ apartments so I don't actually know if the radiators are all the same.
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The steam radiators in my apartment have the inlet and outlet on the same level. Wonder how that affects the operation of the system. Granted I'm on the ground floor and the heating until is in the basement below my apartment buy it feeds steam to multiple floors for 30+ apartments so I don't actually know if the radiators are all the same.
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Ed
Thank you for the informative instruction. The failure of a steam trap in the closed position is easy to spot. No heat from the radiator. But finding the trap in the open position is extremely difficult, no tenant complains about too much heat! They open windows! What are the best ways to diagnose a faulty trap in the open position?
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Thank you for the informative instruction. The failure of a steam trap in the closed position is easy to spot. No heat from the radiator. But finding the trap in the open position is extremely difficult, no tenant complains about too much heat! They open windows! What are the best ways to diagnose a faulty trap in the open position?
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Sion
Why not use hot water for heating instead?
Seams much safer, at least in regards to the steam explosion risk, but I don't think it needs to constantly change those steam trap valves all the time.
Also, doesn't a steam heating element get extremely hot? (around/above water boiling temperature)
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Why not use hot water for heating instead?
Seams much safer, at least in regards to the steam explosion risk, but I don't think it needs to constantly change those steam trap valves all the time.
Also, doesn't a steam heating element get extremely hot? (around/above water boiling temperature)
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Joel
Thank you for the very useful video. I get my system serviced every fall, but I haven't had my traps checked. I believe one of them is stuck closed and a few of them could be stuck open. I'll find out in September because right now, the utility bill is within acceptable limits.
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Thank you for the very useful video. I get my system serviced every fall, but I haven't had my traps checked. I believe one of them is stuck closed and a few of them could be stuck open. I'll find out in September because right now, the utility bill is within acceptable limits.
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Jason
Ummm well boiler systems are about 30psi. As the pressure increases so does the boiling point. So at that 30ppsi pressure, water could be still liquid at 215 degrees. Residential boilers aren't that hot anyway. Normally around 180 degrees. Commercial uses steam boilers.
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Ummm well boiler systems are about 30psi. As the pressure increases so does the boiling point. So at that 30ppsi pressure, water could be still liquid at 215 degrees. Residential boilers aren't that hot anyway. Normally around 180 degrees. Commercial uses steam boilers.
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Beach&BoardFan
5: 48 Not at elevated pressures. At 25 psi (nominal boiler pressure, here anyway) the boiling point is up around 250 F.
Not criticizing, just think its important to talk about pressure along with temp when discussing boiling point.
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5: 48 Not at elevated pressures. At 25 psi (nominal boiler pressure, here anyway) the boiling point is up around 250 F.
Not criticizing, just think its important to talk about pressure along with temp when discussing boiling point.
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boomchacle
I have a question. How can steam push the water back into the boiler? Wouldnt the pressure pushing against the return line be the same as the pressure pushing steam out? I thought it just returned from gravity.
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I have a question. How can steam push the water back into the boiler? Wouldnt the pressure pushing against the return line be the same as the pressure pushing steam out? I thought it just returned from gravity.
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Travis
This explains why the radiators in my university never worked, and some made terrible farting sounds when turned on. The bellows were likely way past their useful operational lifespan.
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This explains why the radiators in my university never worked, and some made terrible farting sounds when turned on. The bellows were likely way past their useful operational lifespan.
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Freestila
Interesting. These heating Systems are totally unknown here in Germany. We only use water heating, much more efficient since the temperatures are only around 40-60 degrees Celsius
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Interesting. These heating Systems are totally unknown here in Germany. We only use water heating, much more efficient since the temperatures are only around 40-60 degrees Celsius
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BAH
Do you have a video on a hot deck AHU? They just torn one out and put VAVs with reheat coils in. I'm just the electrician but I can't see how that's going to work. Please enlighten me.
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Do you have a video on a hot deck AHU? They just torn one out and put VAVs with reheat coils in. I'm just the electrician but I can't see how that's going to work. Please enlighten me.
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Ter
Im well aware of the industrial application of steam heating. But i never knew that its also used in commercial buildings, I thought only hot water was used. At least thats what i use
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Im well aware of the industrial application of steam heating. But i never knew that its also used in commercial buildings, I thought only hot water was used. At least thats what i use
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peter
Glad we don't use this dangerous way of heating homes and buildings in the UK oh and this is so inefficient and wastes so much energy compared to the normal water heating system.
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Glad we don't use this dangerous way of heating homes and buildings in the UK oh and this is so inefficient and wastes so much energy compared to the normal water heating system.
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Heider
Great video thanks for making it, is it possible to know how you made the graphics and beautiful animations please? It would be great if you could let me know.
Many thanks
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Great video thanks for making it, is it possible to know how you made the graphics and beautiful animations please? It would be great if you could let me know.
Many thanks
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TheTubejunky
That is awesome information. This type of heating while simple is very dangerous! It speaks loudly to the awareness of preventive maintenance.
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That is awesome information. This type of heating while simple is very dangerous! It speaks loudly to the awareness of preventive maintenance.
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AvidMind
Very good and thankyou. PS. The word bellows' is only ever used as a plural, there is no such thing as a bellow (other than an animal noise)
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Very good and thankyou. PS. The word bellows' is only ever used as a plural, there is no such thing as a bellow (other than an animal noise)
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Sumbody
This assumes you are running your heater all year round with no stopping. Meaning you are gonna get 3-4 times that in years of use minimum.
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This assumes you are running your heater all year round with no stopping. Meaning you are gonna get 3-4 times that in years of use minimum.
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Luminous
we had them in school back in the 80's. horrible history though. the nuns used to tie kids to them as a punishment in the 50's and 60's.
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we had them in school back in the 80's. horrible history though. the nuns used to tie kids to them as a punishment in the 50's and 60's.
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JM
Damn slick! Any vendors make bellows for these that can be filled with other liquids? Or are they fluid specific bellows?
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Damn slick! Any vendors make bellows for these that can be filled with other liquids? Or are they fluid specific bellows?
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Piotr
Who use this system? Where is it popular? Which countries?
In Poland there is only water based system.
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Who use this system? Where is it popular? Which countries?
In Poland there is only water based system.
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Andrew
3: 47 - high pressure of the system? Is condesate somehow higher pressure than the boiler full of steam?
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3: 47 - high pressure of the system? Is condesate somehow higher pressure than the boiler full of steam?
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pmailkeey
Why is this design used over the condensate float valve type that everyone uses? (quieter operation)
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Why is this design used over the condensate float valve type that everyone uses? (quieter operation)
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CCK
Excellent video. If I am not wrong, steam trap and radiation trap work opposite to each other?
Thanks.
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Excellent video. If I am not wrong, steam trap and radiation trap work opposite to each other?
Thanks.
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Wild
To the best of my knowledge the bellows on my houses system are the original ones from 1931. Hmmmm.
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To the best of my knowledge the bellows on my houses system are the original ones from 1931. Hmmmm.
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