Why was The Holy Roman Empire so Dysfunctional?
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Its decentralized nature nourished the city states (both in Italy and in Northern Germany) and ultimately the Renaissance, which benefitted the West as a whole. Great figures who contributed to the advance to modernity like Friedrich II or Matilda of Tuscany (whose reforms laid foundation for the Renaissance) or Maximilian were born in that environment. -
From a rulers point of view, they were not necessarily disadvantaged either. For a large part of the Middle Age, the rulers of the HRE were the most powerful Christian princes, and this happened again in the Early Modern Age with the Habsburgs. While it was hard to centralize the Empire itself, the electors and princes generally supported the emperors expansion scheme. The duty to protect central Europe also made this more reasonable from Italys or Hungarys points of view. This was the main reasons the Ottonen, the Salier, the Hohenstaufen, the Luxemburg and the Habsburg rulers could keep three to four royal crown all at once, while the Capet brances could not - they were offered the Polish and the -Dutch- crowns and others, but they could not hold them all at once together with their French crown. Even Louis XIVs France and his grandsons Spain could not function as a -multi-headed dragon- alliance the way Habsburg Spain and Austria had managed to do. -
When the dawn of industrialization came though, a more centralized nation would benefit due to its uniformed administrative, customs, traffic. systems. It was easier to build rail roads in those more centralized countries. But all in all, the HRE was hardly a waste. Besides, what brings advantage today might not do so tomorrow. Today, the UK and France had an imbalance (between regions) problem because of the previous centralization, which led to current autonomy and independence movements. Ireland intends to build a decentralized system like that of Germany for this exact reason. It is also thanks to the decentralized nature of the HRE that now continental Europe have this many flourishing cities (this would not be the case had resources been all concentrated on Aachen)\r\n
Date: 2023-12-16
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Comments and reviews: 29
-Owlr4ider
I'm sorry but talking about Charlemagne's HRE in reference to Voltaire's infamous quote is just plain wrong. There were actually 2 HREs in history. The first 1, which Charlemagne created, was very short lived due to the gavelkind succession laws. The second, the one Voltaire eventually talked about, was founded by Otto I, King of Germany(a title which itself was very short lived as Germany ceased being a kingdom shortly afterwards. I also don't understand how you can talk about the HRE failing when your starting point is basically the 30 year war, at which point the HRE already existed for many centuries. It's also funny you say its decentralization was a major weakness when all European kingdoms, including those of France and England, were decentralized throughout the entire medieval era.
It's only after the Renaissance that the various European nations begun centralizing and this culminated with King Louis XIV's famous quote: 'I am the state' which helped coin the term 'absolute monarchy' in order to clearly differentiate it from previous iterations of monarchy which were far less centralized. The HRE itself lasted for nearly a thousand years, you can't just pick and choose specific eras in history where it was failing and say these are the reasons the HRE was dysfunctional. The only argument you can make is that while other European nations did eventually centralize, the HRE never did and this ultimately led to its downfall. This is a far cry from calling the HRE's nearly thousand year history a dysfunctional mess.
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I'm sorry but talking about Charlemagne's HRE in reference to Voltaire's infamous quote is just plain wrong. There were actually 2 HREs in history. The first 1, which Charlemagne created, was very short lived due to the gavelkind succession laws. The second, the one Voltaire eventually talked about, was founded by Otto I, King of Germany(a title which itself was very short lived as Germany ceased being a kingdom shortly afterwards. I also don't understand how you can talk about the HRE failing when your starting point is basically the 30 year war, at which point the HRE already existed for many centuries. It's also funny you say its decentralization was a major weakness when all European kingdoms, including those of France and England, were decentralized throughout the entire medieval era.
It's only after the Renaissance that the various European nations begun centralizing and this culminated with King Louis XIV's famous quote: 'I am the state' which helped coin the term 'absolute monarchy' in order to clearly differentiate it from previous iterations of monarchy which were far less centralized. The HRE itself lasted for nearly a thousand years, you can't just pick and choose specific eras in history where it was failing and say these are the reasons the HRE was dysfunctional. The only argument you can make is that while other European nations did eventually centralize, the HRE never did and this ultimately led to its downfall. This is a far cry from calling the HRE's nearly thousand year history a dysfunctional mess.
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-anjalE30
DYSFUNCTIONAL?
THE HRE STILL standing today!
Wrecking diabolical havoc worldwide - in the shadows. But in plain sight!
They never fell off
They only learned to adapt throughout the times
The HRE controls the world
They are the NWO - the elite
-Mormons- are nothing godly. They are the modern HRE in AMERICA
Ppl sleep on Germany/europe b/c it has been -quiet- since ww2
No no no do not be deceived
U really think nazis /the Reich jus surrendered and went quiet?
Revelations is ww3!
The fourth Reich
Daneil and 2 ezra proohesy about the -eagle- the eagle is the HRE
Ppl better wake up
Pray u do not live to see the day when the man of lawlessness and evil reign on the earth
The germanic ppl, the barbarians, are EDOMITES
And the WORLD has never seen such terror as there is to come
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DYSFUNCTIONAL?
THE HRE STILL standing today!
Wrecking diabolical havoc worldwide - in the shadows. But in plain sight!
They never fell off
They only learned to adapt throughout the times
The HRE controls the world
They are the NWO - the elite
-Mormons- are nothing godly. They are the modern HRE in AMERICA
Ppl sleep on Germany/europe b/c it has been -quiet- since ww2
No no no do not be deceived
U really think nazis /the Reich jus surrendered and went quiet?
Revelations is ww3!
The fourth Reich
Daneil and 2 ezra proohesy about the -eagle- the eagle is the HRE
Ppl better wake up
Pray u do not live to see the day when the man of lawlessness and evil reign on the earth
The germanic ppl, the barbarians, are EDOMITES
And the WORLD has never seen such terror as there is to come
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-glishev
The classical Roman Empire had two Medieval continuations: the direct, legitimate successor state or Byzantium; and the indirect, not exactly legitimate claimant or the HRE. Both had their good and bad moments. They both had Roman and non-Roman elements. The Eastern Empire started as the polity of Constantine, Theodosius and Justinian but slowly became a Greek state. The -Holy- or rather Frankish/Germanic Empire was just the idea of the Papacy and some Western kings about what new forms Roman political and cultural legacy would take. By, say, 1400 Constantine the Great would not recognize much of his work in any of these two polities. But the lasting success of the classical Roman Empire is in the fact that Byzantine Greeks and Germans insisted on calling themselves Romans. Roma capta ferum victorem coepit.
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The classical Roman Empire had two Medieval continuations: the direct, legitimate successor state or Byzantium; and the indirect, not exactly legitimate claimant or the HRE. Both had their good and bad moments. They both had Roman and non-Roman elements. The Eastern Empire started as the polity of Constantine, Theodosius and Justinian but slowly became a Greek state. The -Holy- or rather Frankish/Germanic Empire was just the idea of the Papacy and some Western kings about what new forms Roman political and cultural legacy would take. By, say, 1400 Constantine the Great would not recognize much of his work in any of these two polities. But the lasting success of the classical Roman Empire is in the fact that Byzantine Greeks and Germans insisted on calling themselves Romans. Roma capta ferum victorem coepit.
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-janekbrat6951
I think the extreme decentralisation of the HRE wasn't a weakness per se, but actually its greatest advantage for longevity. True, such great fracturement made it difficult to have any meaningful strategy at all, in pretty much anything really. But that also made it nearly impossible for outside forces to meaningfully influence the HRE. Also annexing it by military force was a tough one. Every single count and prince and king had his own soldiers and there was no real capital or actual leader to target for an decapitation blow to the entire empire.
A great help surely was also that the common poeple of the HRE spoke very similar languages if not the same mostly. That made the fracturement not as big of a problem as it was in the late stages of the original Roman empire.
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I think the extreme decentralisation of the HRE wasn't a weakness per se, but actually its greatest advantage for longevity. True, such great fracturement made it difficult to have any meaningful strategy at all, in pretty much anything really. But that also made it nearly impossible for outside forces to meaningfully influence the HRE. Also annexing it by military force was a tough one. Every single count and prince and king had his own soldiers and there was no real capital or actual leader to target for an decapitation blow to the entire empire.
A great help surely was also that the common poeple of the HRE spoke very similar languages if not the same mostly. That made the fracturement not as big of a problem as it was in the late stages of the original Roman empire.
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-amochswohntet4434
So -dysfunctional-, but somehow lasted longer than the Roman empire before it. Something tells me the narration is very biased. Probably just a salty British guy. The British have always sought to undermine continental Europe for their long term aspiration of attaining hegemony over it, so it-s quite common to hear slander from the British and the Anglo-sphere(America, Canada, Australia) about the recent major power that governed it.
HRE lasted -800yrs
Roman empire lasted -500yrs
HRE probably much longer because it didn-t depend on constant expansion. You have to give the HRE its due; it-s not easy to make something out of the remnants of a fallen empire, and they made something fantastic out of it, that stood the test of time.
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So -dysfunctional-, but somehow lasted longer than the Roman empire before it. Something tells me the narration is very biased. Probably just a salty British guy. The British have always sought to undermine continental Europe for their long term aspiration of attaining hegemony over it, so it-s quite common to hear slander from the British and the Anglo-sphere(America, Canada, Australia) about the recent major power that governed it.
HRE lasted -800yrs
Roman empire lasted -500yrs
HRE probably much longer because it didn-t depend on constant expansion. You have to give the HRE its due; it-s not easy to make something out of the remnants of a fallen empire, and they made something fantastic out of it, that stood the test of time.
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-user-et6cr6qd8v
the empire lasted 1000 jears because most of the reasons you you think it failed.
these where -independent- states with different cultured and goals the idea to tell them that they have to serve a king who has nothing to do with them is stupit.
decantralisation in the long run is supirior to zentralisation as long as there is a sense of belonging together or helping eatch other out
it is a sucess story
how many empires lasted that long without kollapsing?
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the empire lasted 1000 jears because most of the reasons you you think it failed.
these where -independent- states with different cultured and goals the idea to tell them that they have to serve a king who has nothing to do with them is stupit.
decantralisation in the long run is supirior to zentralisation as long as there is a sense of belonging together or helping eatch other out
it is a sucess story
how many empires lasted that long without kollapsing?
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knowledgia
ok so your idea and voltaires idea on how the hre wasnt holy roman or an empire is wrong and its annoying. first off voltaire hated germans and the hre so his quote is biased on a good day. The hre and its dominant faith was catholic (holy. The Hre had controlled northern italy and had the blesssing of the pope (roman. And the empire on multiple occasions did expand in its early centuries (empire. People take voltaire without looking at why he made the quote.
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ok so your idea and voltaires idea on how the hre wasnt holy roman or an empire is wrong and its annoying. first off voltaire hated germans and the hre so his quote is biased on a good day. The hre and its dominant faith was catholic (holy. The Hre had controlled northern italy and had the blesssing of the pope (roman. And the empire on multiple occasions did expand in its early centuries (empire. People take voltaire without looking at why he made the quote.
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knowledgia
Your sources seem rather superficial and popular scientific. The best scientific yet understandable books about the HRE in English are -Germany and the Holy Roman Empire 1493-1806- by Joachim Whaley and -The Holy Roman Empire. A Thousand Years of Europe-s History- by Peter Wilson. A must read for those who want to know more and can spare the coin. or for those who want to make a video on the topic.
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Your sources seem rather superficial and popular scientific. The best scientific yet understandable books about the HRE in English are -Germany and the Holy Roman Empire 1493-1806- by Joachim Whaley and -The Holy Roman Empire. A Thousand Years of Europe-s History- by Peter Wilson. A must read for those who want to know more and can spare the coin. or for those who want to make a video on the topic.
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-bristleback1759
Ruled by a king proclaimed emperor, wise enough to give no damn about his fellow advice unwise enough to swim in an oasis wearing chainmail armour only to b drown to death before even the main battle or war has taken place. (Fredrick barbossa the third crusade). That explains the lineage of kingship and why it fell to small kingdoms or nation of Austria Hungary.
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Ruled by a king proclaimed emperor, wise enough to give no damn about his fellow advice unwise enough to swim in an oasis wearing chainmail armour only to b drown to death before even the main battle or war has taken place. (Fredrick barbossa the third crusade). That explains the lineage of kingship and why it fell to small kingdoms or nation of Austria Hungary.
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knowledgia
That's quite the rabbit hole, but let's dive in, and might I digress: in the year 800; they added the word holy, they borrowed the holy family authority. And tried to erase the holy family, and make it only a spiritual meaning. The intent was to wipe out the actual Ancestry and genealogical bloodline. It didn't work the Holy family still here.
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That's quite the rabbit hole, but let's dive in, and might I digress: in the year 800; they added the word holy, they borrowed the holy family authority. And tried to erase the holy family, and make it only a spiritual meaning. The intent was to wipe out the actual Ancestry and genealogical bloodline. It didn't work the Holy family still here.
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knowledgia
Almost nothing is said about before decentralization. Nothing about the Investiture Controversy, nothing about emperor Frederick Barbarossa, nothing about emperor Charles IV. And also Austria is pictured with large borders too soon, there were the Lands of the Bohemian Crown and there was no Austrian Empire until 1804.
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Almost nothing is said about before decentralization. Nothing about the Investiture Controversy, nothing about emperor Frederick Barbarossa, nothing about emperor Charles IV. And also Austria is pictured with large borders too soon, there were the Lands of the Bohemian Crown and there was no Austrian Empire until 1804.
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-user-wp4oh3zn5e
I read that the facto the -Kingdom of Italy- (One of the entities of the HRE) was actually independent and any attempt to rule It by a german emperour failed (for istance, Barbarossa vs the Lombardic League. In Italy the phenomenon of the cities-states was very common.
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I read that the facto the -Kingdom of Italy- (One of the entities of the HRE) was actually independent and any attempt to rule It by a german emperour failed (for istance, Barbarossa vs the Lombardic League. In Italy the phenomenon of the cities-states was very common.
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knowledgia
I am not an expert but just maybe, if the Frankish monarchs does not have the tradition of dividing their lands between their children but instead appoint only a crown prince that they may able to maintain the power of the Merovingian empire. Just a thought.
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I am not an expert but just maybe, if the Frankish monarchs does not have the tradition of dividing their lands between their children but instead appoint only a crown prince that they may able to maintain the power of the Merovingian empire. Just a thought.
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-davidcoquelle3081
This is riddled with mistakes in the first minutes it-s not that the popes chose the emperors especially not Charlemagne but it was a circular agreement that made for the multiple wars between the two offices.
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This is riddled with mistakes in the first minutes it-s not that the popes chose the emperors especially not Charlemagne but it was a circular agreement that made for the multiple wars between the two offices.
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-ilect1690
I think the -roman- thing is the fact that its claim as THE roman empire was contested for most of its life by the eastern roman empire which unediably had a much stronger claim to the roman empire title than the HRE
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I think the -roman- thing is the fact that its claim as THE roman empire was contested for most of its life by the eastern roman empire which unediably had a much stronger claim to the roman empire title than the HRE
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-joegagliardi3984
When Empires get too big, encompassing so many different ethnic groups and cultures, cracks form, and sooner or later, they fall. History has shown us this time and again.
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When Empires get too big, encompassing so many different ethnic groups and cultures, cracks form, and sooner or later, they fall. History has shown us this time and again.
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knowledgia
Say what you will about the HRE, but you cannot deny the massive economic foundation that it left behind for the German Empire and the states that are culturaly related to it.
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Say what you will about the HRE, but you cannot deny the massive economic foundation that it left behind for the German Empire and the states that are culturaly related to it.
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knowledgia
The decentralization part was great. Responsibilities were more localized. People were more autonomous. For the most part it worked great. The fact it lasted so long is proof.
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The decentralization part was great. Responsibilities were more localized. People were more autonomous. For the most part it worked great. The fact it lasted so long is proof.
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-diegovinicius1987
My question since I first heard about the HRE; did they call themselves Holy Romans? Did their currency, official documents and so on had Holy Roman Empire on them?
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My question since I first heard about the HRE; did they call themselves Holy Romans? Did their currency, official documents and so on had Holy Roman Empire on them?
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-wilsonelder5277
Voltaire: The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire
Also Voltaire: A witty saying proves nothing
Tells you all you need to know there.
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Voltaire: The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire
Also Voltaire: A witty saying proves nothing
Tells you all you need to know there.
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-gentlebabarian
To say the Holy roman empire was decentralised and dysfunctional is unfair because every feudal state was decentralised and dysfunctional.
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To say the Holy roman empire was decentralised and dysfunctional is unfair because every feudal state was decentralised and dysfunctional.
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-alanstrong55
It was perhaps too unfriendly to its own people. Not a true representative for God's Kingdom. Munich may have been a good capital.
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It was perhaps too unfriendly to its own people. Not a true representative for God's Kingdom. Munich may have been a good capital.
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-thomasjamison2050
Wait a minute. Is someone contending that in the age of the Empire the rest of the world truly had it's sh-t together?
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Wait a minute. Is someone contending that in the age of the Empire the rest of the world truly had it's sh-t together?
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-fabrizio. guidi64
It is clear that the Roman Empire has left many children affected by the Oedipus complex and identity problems,
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It is clear that the Roman Empire has left many children affected by the Oedipus complex and identity problems,
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-user-eg3cx5oz2f
At the end of the day, it did last a thousand years. So I don't know how dysfunctional it could have really been.
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At the end of the day, it did last a thousand years. So I don't know how dysfunctional it could have really been.
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-pluswarrior
Bruh i tested out the game that sponsored this vid-dont download it-so many bad reviews, on PC I couldn't even play
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Bruh i tested out the game that sponsored this vid-dont download it-so many bad reviews, on PC I couldn't even play
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-ninny65
the HRE was a power sink to maintain European order. The French ended that yoke and gave rise to the central powers
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the HRE was a power sink to maintain European order. The French ended that yoke and gave rise to the central powers
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-davidschmidt5709
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-davidschmidt5709
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