X-Ray Analysis: Nasty Enermax Slime in New Threadripper Liqtech II Coolers
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Date: 2020-05-06
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Comments and reviews: 10
Andy
You mentioned wanting input on your pH measurements. I have a background in pharmaceutical chemistry (not far down the road from where I gather you are, in RTP) - what you did is true for aqueous systems and indeed high school and even intro college level chemistry keeps things simple by only discussing pH in purely aqueous solutions (that is, 100 v/v% water, plus any solute. But that s not what you are dealing with there. In water [H+][OH-]=10 14. And since pH is a logarithm, when [H+] and [OH-] (recall that square brackets indicate molar concentrations) are equally balanced, it s the logarithm rule 10 7 10 7 you add exponents (10 14. All that to say, all your measurements are made on the supposition of 10 14 being the total value of solute. In non-pure aqueous systems - that total value changes- for example a system of ethanol and water I recall having a total count of 10 23 (giving a neutral pH of 12. 5. That constant is dependent on the solution, and while there are ways to calculate it, it s traditionally something I would look up in the literature. As it happens, I specifically dealt with an aqueous /propylene glycol system in my project over at RTP. I recall having a lot of difficulty determining that constant. Our system was a lot more PG than in the pumps, and PG can t donate H or accept a proton except under rather extreme conditions, but it can, being polar, stabilize the protons donated or absorbed by water. In the end, the simplified acid base model, is essentially down to donating and accepting protons - (Bohr base model? Was that what it was called? As opposed to the Arrhenius acid base model which was all about H and OH and only works in water, but few interesting things in real life are in nearly pure water) Because your probe was calibrated for water at pH 4 and 7, it s somewhat debatable how indicative they are in a water/PG system. It s been a few years now and thats as much as I can offer, but it is a bit more advanced than given here- nothing is simple right? There is likely some truth that the relative magnitude of the measurements have some meaning, but the absolute values, very little. Fwiw.
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You mentioned wanting input on your pH measurements. I have a background in pharmaceutical chemistry (not far down the road from where I gather you are, in RTP) - what you did is true for aqueous systems and indeed high school and even intro college level chemistry keeps things simple by only discussing pH in purely aqueous solutions (that is, 100 v/v% water, plus any solute. But that s not what you are dealing with there. In water [H+][OH-]=10 14. And since pH is a logarithm, when [H+] and [OH-] (recall that square brackets indicate molar concentrations) are equally balanced, it s the logarithm rule 10 7 10 7 you add exponents (10 14. All that to say, all your measurements are made on the supposition of 10 14 being the total value of solute. In non-pure aqueous systems - that total value changes- for example a system of ethanol and water I recall having a total count of 10 23 (giving a neutral pH of 12. 5. That constant is dependent on the solution, and while there are ways to calculate it, it s traditionally something I would look up in the literature. As it happens, I specifically dealt with an aqueous /propylene glycol system in my project over at RTP. I recall having a lot of difficulty determining that constant. Our system was a lot more PG than in the pumps, and PG can t donate H or accept a proton except under rather extreme conditions, but it can, being polar, stabilize the protons donated or absorbed by water. In the end, the simplified acid base model, is essentially down to donating and accepting protons - (Bohr base model? Was that what it was called? As opposed to the Arrhenius acid base model which was all about H and OH and only works in water, but few interesting things in real life are in nearly pure water) Because your probe was calibrated for water at pH 4 and 7, it s somewhat debatable how indicative they are in a water/PG system. It s been a few years now and thats as much as I can offer, but it is a bit more advanced than given here- nothing is simple right? There is likely some truth that the relative magnitude of the measurements have some meaning, but the absolute values, very little. Fwiw.
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JonsReef
Glad i dont use AIO coolers. spent 1300 on my watercooling setup with fans blocks ect ect. and this setup will probably last me 10 years. Ive been watercooling for 20 years now, and i used the original pump, tubing, radiator and BLOCK yes the block i modded to fit on new sockets. I used these parts for 18 years. On my Duron 1000mhz/athlonxp/athlon 64/ duel core opteron, e8400 wolfdale, and 4790k. And guess what that same block was getting temps similar to everyones new heatsinks and waterblocks. I got 2700x system and 1080ti in 2018 now a 3800x and i decided it was time to spend money on a new cooling setup. 1300 sounds like a alot but 350 were the rgb fans but ya i spent 950 on watercooling parts. but like my other stuff itll last 10 years + easily, THE only thing i am noticing is white powder in the setup. using EK cryfuel and all EK blocks and radiators. I flushed the system today after running for 1 1/2 years and it had some powdery residue in the coolant. I had to clean inside the tubing as well with a snake like brush. Im unsure what this white residue was. Ive never seen it before in my 17 year old system and that system i used city tap water. I have a suspicion that these alluminum radiators are causing this powder to precipitate in the system, my old 17 year old radiator was copper.
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Glad i dont use AIO coolers. spent 1300 on my watercooling setup with fans blocks ect ect. and this setup will probably last me 10 years. Ive been watercooling for 20 years now, and i used the original pump, tubing, radiator and BLOCK yes the block i modded to fit on new sockets. I used these parts for 18 years. On my Duron 1000mhz/athlonxp/athlon 64/ duel core opteron, e8400 wolfdale, and 4790k. And guess what that same block was getting temps similar to everyones new heatsinks and waterblocks. I got 2700x system and 1080ti in 2018 now a 3800x and i decided it was time to spend money on a new cooling setup. 1300 sounds like a alot but 350 were the rgb fans but ya i spent 950 on watercooling parts. but like my other stuff itll last 10 years + easily, THE only thing i am noticing is white powder in the setup. using EK cryfuel and all EK blocks and radiators. I flushed the system today after running for 1 1/2 years and it had some powdery residue in the coolant. I had to clean inside the tubing as well with a snake like brush. Im unsure what this white residue was. Ive never seen it before in my 17 year old system and that system i used city tap water. I have a suspicion that these alluminum radiators are causing this powder to precipitate in the system, my old 17 year old radiator was copper.
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Michael
Just a short note here: A new and unused Enermax 2 needs to be purchased for PH measurement as reference, so that you may determine if the PH is changing over time with use. Additionally (without knowing the order in which you performed these tests, it is hard to say whether or not this could have affected your results) you need to make sure you are clearing your electrode junction before testing each solution. Otherwise your results will drift between tests as matter (especially organic) from each solution builds up in your junction. If you are using an inexpensive all-in-one PH meter, the best way to do this would be to simply soak your electrode in distilled water for 5 minutes between tests, then re-calibrate, and then perform your next test. Again I want to reiterate that for the purpose of proving your current hypothesis, the PH of solutions other than that of the used Enermax and additionally an un-used enermax (reference) are secondary, and do not serve to demonstrate the change in the solution over time. I imagine you are using some comparative data from other manufacturers to try and find a PH value that DOESN'T cause the problem you are observing, but I just wanted to make sure you are not using these as your actual reference. Cheers.
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Just a short note here: A new and unused Enermax 2 needs to be purchased for PH measurement as reference, so that you may determine if the PH is changing over time with use. Additionally (without knowing the order in which you performed these tests, it is hard to say whether or not this could have affected your results) you need to make sure you are clearing your electrode junction before testing each solution. Otherwise your results will drift between tests as matter (especially organic) from each solution builds up in your junction. If you are using an inexpensive all-in-one PH meter, the best way to do this would be to simply soak your electrode in distilled water for 5 minutes between tests, then re-calibrate, and then perform your next test. Again I want to reiterate that for the purpose of proving your current hypothesis, the PH of solutions other than that of the used Enermax and additionally an un-used enermax (reference) are secondary, and do not serve to demonstrate the change in the solution over time. I imagine you are using some comparative data from other manufacturers to try and find a PH value that DOESN'T cause the problem you are observing, but I just wanted to make sure you are not using these as your actual reference. Cheers.
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DashCamAndy
Before you get to the meat & potatoes of the analysis, I'm going to throw out a theory: the coolant used in their system is absolute shyte. Your B-roll footage shows sludge and crystalline deposits similar to what I've seen working on GM vehicles using DexCool engine coolant. That stuff would clog radiators, heater cores, and even the water jacket (coolant passageways machined into the engine block and head) as the coolant sludged up, and any slightest pinhole leak in the cooling system would be surrounded by small piles of white crystalline powder. It was 100, 000-mile coolant that would require replacement around 50-60k miles, including a full system flush to remove floating flakes of aluminum oxides. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with the engine cooling system other than inferior coolant (every car I flushed and replaced the DexCool with standard coolant never had a problem afterwards, and it seems this is most likely the real issue with these Enermax coolers. As they say in their own statement at 10: 29-ish, when exposed to humid air the gel crystalizes [sic] with time and forms white powder. 20: 10 - And there ya go. :-)
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Before you get to the meat & potatoes of the analysis, I'm going to throw out a theory: the coolant used in their system is absolute shyte. Your B-roll footage shows sludge and crystalline deposits similar to what I've seen working on GM vehicles using DexCool engine coolant. That stuff would clog radiators, heater cores, and even the water jacket (coolant passageways machined into the engine block and head) as the coolant sludged up, and any slightest pinhole leak in the cooling system would be surrounded by small piles of white crystalline powder. It was 100, 000-mile coolant that would require replacement around 50-60k miles, including a full system flush to remove floating flakes of aluminum oxides. There would be absolutely nothing wrong with the engine cooling system other than inferior coolant (every car I flushed and replaced the DexCool with standard coolant never had a problem afterwards, and it seems this is most likely the real issue with these Enermax coolers. As they say in their own statement at 10: 29-ish, when exposed to humid air the gel crystalizes [sic] with time and forms white powder. 20: 10 - And there ya go. :-)
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captaintrebek
Qualifications: a B. S. in biochemistry from 2011, followed by a career in healthcare where I don't do much chemistry. So, not great. I would say, since it sounds like you calibrated your pH probe according to the recommendations in the manual, that: A) the samples of different CLC coolants are absolutely significantly different, B) there is enough difference across samples that certain kinds of chemistry would be affected, but C) the differences in pH could be due to a number of different reasons and, D) you really need an expert in the metals used (and probably more info about the fluids' compositions) to assess what the pH differences mean. Maybe Liqtech fluids are more alkaline because of the oxidation-of-aluminum due to the faulty pump like they say; maybe they're more alkaline because they have a totally different formula from Corsair or Asetek fluids. I'll let a material scientist or inorganic chemist enlighten us on whether a pH of 7. 94 (Liqtech II 360) is likely to contribute to oxidation of these metals where a pH of 7. 84 wouldn't.
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Qualifications: a B. S. in biochemistry from 2011, followed by a career in healthcare where I don't do much chemistry. So, not great. I would say, since it sounds like you calibrated your pH probe according to the recommendations in the manual, that: A) the samples of different CLC coolants are absolutely significantly different, B) there is enough difference across samples that certain kinds of chemistry would be affected, but C) the differences in pH could be due to a number of different reasons and, D) you really need an expert in the metals used (and probably more info about the fluids' compositions) to assess what the pH differences mean. Maybe Liqtech fluids are more alkaline because of the oxidation-of-aluminum due to the faulty pump like they say; maybe they're more alkaline because they have a totally different formula from Corsair or Asetek fluids. I'll let a material scientist or inorganic chemist enlighten us on whether a pH of 7. 94 (Liqtech II 360) is likely to contribute to oxidation of these metals where a pH of 7. 84 wouldn't.
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Eric
Toxicologist here. These pH values are totally fine. If the liquid really is nearly deionized, you'll have a hard time measuring pH accurately. Also, you really need at least a 3 point standard curve, pH 4. 0, 7. 0, and 10. 0. Our deionized water source typically measures around pH 8. 8, but that's mainly because it contains such a low ion content. So depending on the solute content of the clc liquid it may be totally fine from a pH perspective. I suspect it's a case of galvanic corrosion due to mixed metals with water acting as an electrolyte. One thing that may help Enermax is back filling with pure nitrogen or other inert gas rather than trying to vacuum seal. But also they need to make sure all the alloys are compatible. The deionized water could be stripping ions from the metals and then acting as a potent electrolyte. So even if they're using pure, high quality water, if they're using cheap metals, they'll just spew out a ton of ions into the previously pure water.
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Toxicologist here. These pH values are totally fine. If the liquid really is nearly deionized, you'll have a hard time measuring pH accurately. Also, you really need at least a 3 point standard curve, pH 4. 0, 7. 0, and 10. 0. Our deionized water source typically measures around pH 8. 8, but that's mainly because it contains such a low ion content. So depending on the solute content of the clc liquid it may be totally fine from a pH perspective. I suspect it's a case of galvanic corrosion due to mixed metals with water acting as an electrolyte. One thing that may help Enermax is back filling with pure nitrogen or other inert gas rather than trying to vacuum seal. But also they need to make sure all the alloys are compatible. The deionized water could be stripping ions from the metals and then acting as a potent electrolyte. So even if they're using pure, high quality water, if they're using cheap metals, they'll just spew out a ton of ions into the previously pure water.
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Thee
First and foremost thank you so much for these videos. I bought a LiqTech 1 back in 1/2018 and of course mine starts failing two weeks ago. At first I had no idea what it was wrong as my PC was just randomly shutting off. I at first thought it was PSU related so I sent my HX1000 back for a RMA as well as scrubbed my GPU drivers due to getting a new 2070. It kept having issues after I installed a evga 850 PSU while I was waiting for my Hx1000 to come back. I noticed the CPUs temp at idle was sitting at 85-90C and felt this was alarming. I googled AMD 1900x overheating and immediately found your previous video. I pulled off my Enermax Liqtech1 cooler and opened up the plugs on the side of the pump and smelt that old food court smell you talked about. I said screw this company and threw out the Cooler and bought a Noctua fan. I'll never use Enermax again and hate that I spent over 100 bucks for a POS that almost killed CPU/Mobo.
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First and foremost thank you so much for these videos. I bought a LiqTech 1 back in 1/2018 and of course mine starts failing two weeks ago. At first I had no idea what it was wrong as my PC was just randomly shutting off. I at first thought it was PSU related so I sent my HX1000 back for a RMA as well as scrubbed my GPU drivers due to getting a new 2070. It kept having issues after I installed a evga 850 PSU while I was waiting for my Hx1000 to come back. I noticed the CPUs temp at idle was sitting at 85-90C and felt this was alarming. I googled AMD 1900x overheating and immediately found your previous video. I pulled off my Enermax Liqtech1 cooler and opened up the plugs on the side of the pump and smelt that old food court smell you talked about. I said screw this company and threw out the Cooler and bought a Noctua fan. I'll never use Enermax again and hate that I spent over 100 bucks for a POS that almost killed CPU/Mobo.
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ExaltedVanguard
This is fairly simple to explain. There's 2 possible causes (it could be both. 1) Within the cooler microfins are hot pocket areas where the coolant is reaching temperatures significantly higher than is normal. At high temperatures (100C, ethylene glycol decomposes into carboxylic acids. If there are areas of low flow where the coolant can heatsoak, this is leading to the formation of hydroxides. 2) A component isn't properly grounded. A higher voltage leads to preferencial decomposition by hydroxide. 1 could be addressed by increasing pump speed, but ultimately requires a redesign of the fins to properly fix. 2 would be very simple to address, and could be fixed by someone getting crafty with some copper wire and solder. Just wire the pump, heatplate, and radiator together and connect to the case to make sure everything's grounded.
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This is fairly simple to explain. There's 2 possible causes (it could be both. 1) Within the cooler microfins are hot pocket areas where the coolant is reaching temperatures significantly higher than is normal. At high temperatures (100C, ethylene glycol decomposes into carboxylic acids. If there are areas of low flow where the coolant can heatsoak, this is leading to the formation of hydroxides. 2) A component isn't properly grounded. A higher voltage leads to preferencial decomposition by hydroxide. 1 could be addressed by increasing pump speed, but ultimately requires a redesign of the fins to properly fix. 2 would be very simple to address, and could be fixed by someone getting crafty with some copper wire and solder. Just wire the pump, heatplate, and radiator together and connect to the case to make sure everything's grounded.
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Matt
If someone is building a thread ripper computer, or upgrading the cooling on a pre-built system, wouldn't a (soft tubing) water cooling setup do the job better AND you can at least keep an eye on the stuff your using like the metals of the radiators and cold plates as well as the coolant and additives. too bad its not easy/simple to just open up those AIO coolers to replace the coolant to see if perhaps that would actually help with the issue and rule out the coolant as a problem if the issue persists even after changing the stock coolant with something else (like just plain distilled water with some additives like biocides and corrosion inhibitors) P. S. I'm no expert on this stuff, most I know is just from the occasional videos on AIO and water cooling done by various tech youtubers like jay, linus, gamers nexus, etc.
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If someone is building a thread ripper computer, or upgrading the cooling on a pre-built system, wouldn't a (soft tubing) water cooling setup do the job better AND you can at least keep an eye on the stuff your using like the metals of the radiators and cold plates as well as the coolant and additives. too bad its not easy/simple to just open up those AIO coolers to replace the coolant to see if perhaps that would actually help with the issue and rule out the coolant as a problem if the issue persists even after changing the stock coolant with something else (like just plain distilled water with some additives like biocides and corrosion inhibitors) P. S. I'm no expert on this stuff, most I know is just from the occasional videos on AIO and water cooling done by various tech youtubers like jay, linus, gamers nexus, etc.
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260
Yes. Ph is important here though material comparability is even more important as the comparability of the cooling fluid and the mixed materials in the cooling path is a key here! The economics of cooing materials in the cooling path, cooling medium and efficiency are just as important. I believe that the IT industry need to look towards the Industrial process industry for lessons learn as this recipe is already known. Not only this subject but the whole cooling and efficiency methodology subject and how to. Why reinvent what is already known. Time to go to base zero and utilize experience from other industries. It more cost effective and you have the opportunity to develop upon an existing working solution and optimist for this industry. Lessons learn will save and bring more to the market.
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Yes. Ph is important here though material comparability is even more important as the comparability of the cooling fluid and the mixed materials in the cooling path is a key here! The economics of cooing materials in the cooling path, cooling medium and efficiency are just as important. I believe that the IT industry need to look towards the Industrial process industry for lessons learn as this recipe is already known. Not only this subject but the whole cooling and efficiency methodology subject and how to. Why reinvent what is already known. Time to go to base zero and utilize experience from other industries. It more cost effective and you have the opportunity to develop upon an existing working solution and optimist for this industry. Lessons learn will save and bring more to the market.
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