Why Dips DON'T Really Work Your Triceps (HOW TO FIX IT)
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Date: 2022-04-22
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Comments and reviews: 9
Sina
I have taken Newtonian physics in college and have a very good understanding of forces. I have also lifted weights for 15 years. Physics and biomechanics aside, lets just think about what you said on the most basic level. The forearm must be perpendicular at some point to the force of gravity to get maximum effort on the tricep and it being parallel to the force of gravity is -working with- gravity because its going in the same direction. This makes no sense. Gravity is pulling you down. You need to keep yourself up during a dip and with your arms straight you are canceling out gravity because the force you are applying is 100% against your weight. or gravity-mass. therefore, with your arms fully extended, and tricep at full flex, you are under max load ( avoid locking out to keep muscle under tension and off joint. Bending down until your upper arm, not forearm, is perpendicular to gravity will take the muscle through the FULL range of motion, but the force on the muscle does not change. How could it? you are not adding any mass. Force = mass - acceleration. Acceleration is gravity give and take a lil to compensate for your motion, which should be slow and controlled to avoid injury.
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I have taken Newtonian physics in college and have a very good understanding of forces. I have also lifted weights for 15 years. Physics and biomechanics aside, lets just think about what you said on the most basic level. The forearm must be perpendicular at some point to the force of gravity to get maximum effort on the tricep and it being parallel to the force of gravity is -working with- gravity because its going in the same direction. This makes no sense. Gravity is pulling you down. You need to keep yourself up during a dip and with your arms straight you are canceling out gravity because the force you are applying is 100% against your weight. or gravity-mass. therefore, with your arms fully extended, and tricep at full flex, you are under max load ( avoid locking out to keep muscle under tension and off joint. Bending down until your upper arm, not forearm, is perpendicular to gravity will take the muscle through the FULL range of motion, but the force on the muscle does not change. How could it? you are not adding any mass. Force = mass - acceleration. Acceleration is gravity give and take a lil to compensate for your motion, which should be slow and controlled to avoid injury.
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Scott
First off. Love the insight and advice from your videos. And I understand that by moving the forearm perpendicular to gravity's line of force then you increase the load that you put on your triceps. But, my question is, isn't it a little more dangerous to do it the way you're suggesting? When doing the dips the traditional way, the wrists (as I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong) don't move hardly at all. However, with you're method (and I'm not claiming anything just posing a question) the wrists are included in the movement and are more susceptible to injury. right?
Also, am I wrong to assume that the tricep, during the traditional dip, is used to move the upper arm from perpendicular to gravity to straight with the forearm? Isn't the tricep working to straighten the upper arm rather than the forearm? I guess what I'm saying is, there's a body weight force at the shoulder providing a torque to the elbow joint equal to the body weight times the distance from your shoulder to your elbow. Doesn't the tricep create the counter torque to your body weight? Please enlighten me. Thanks.
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First off. Love the insight and advice from your videos. And I understand that by moving the forearm perpendicular to gravity's line of force then you increase the load that you put on your triceps. But, my question is, isn't it a little more dangerous to do it the way you're suggesting? When doing the dips the traditional way, the wrists (as I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong) don't move hardly at all. However, with you're method (and I'm not claiming anything just posing a question) the wrists are included in the movement and are more susceptible to injury. right?
Also, am I wrong to assume that the tricep, during the traditional dip, is used to move the upper arm from perpendicular to gravity to straight with the forearm? Isn't the tricep working to straighten the upper arm rather than the forearm? I guess what I'm saying is, there's a body weight force at the shoulder providing a torque to the elbow joint equal to the body weight times the distance from your shoulder to your elbow. Doesn't the tricep create the counter torque to your body weight? Please enlighten me. Thanks.
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Philip
Jeff, what matters is how much torque is exerted on the joint. Torque is generated by the opposing forces of the muscles and the weight on the joint. The force generated by the muscles is independent of your body position, and a weight generates the most force if it's applied at the end of a limb segment opposite the joint being torqued, and that limb segment is parallel to the floor.
If the hand is holding a dumbell or bar, then you'll get maximum torque on the elbow when the forearm is parallel to the floor. But if you're holding a dip bar, the hand stays in place and doesn't produce torque. The torque isn't coming through your hand; it's coming from the weight of your body through your shoulder, so you get the most torque on the elbow if your upper arm is parallel to the floor. Saying that your forearm would have to be parallel to the floor to work the chest in a dip is like saying your forearm would have to be parallel to the floor to work the triceps in a push-up.
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Jeff, what matters is how much torque is exerted on the joint. Torque is generated by the opposing forces of the muscles and the weight on the joint. The force generated by the muscles is independent of your body position, and a weight generates the most force if it's applied at the end of a limb segment opposite the joint being torqued, and that limb segment is parallel to the floor.
If the hand is holding a dumbell or bar, then you'll get maximum torque on the elbow when the forearm is parallel to the floor. But if you're holding a dip bar, the hand stays in place and doesn't produce torque. The torque isn't coming through your hand; it's coming from the weight of your body through your shoulder, so you get the most torque on the elbow if your upper arm is parallel to the floor. Saying that your forearm would have to be parallel to the floor to work the chest in a dip is like saying your forearm would have to be parallel to the floor to work the triceps in a push-up.
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Tristun
Yes, the dips would be harder if hypothetically you could start with your forearms perpendicular to the ground, but they would be _even harder_ if they were even _further_ than perpendicular. Like a muscle up but start from a finished pull up position (forearm up elbow down. That would be _much_ harder on the triceps. So 1. I don't think your perpendicular rule applies to all things, and 2. it's not always about exactly how effective your workout is for a specific muscle. If dips don't work your triceps very much than either do more reps until your feel the burn or do some other workout. I guess you are talking to the idiots but you'd really have to be an idiot to not be able to tell how worked a muscle is. As if they have no sense of muscular endurance or anything. They could be doing curls and think its working their glutes. They need your help.
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Yes, the dips would be harder if hypothetically you could start with your forearms perpendicular to the ground, but they would be _even harder_ if they were even _further_ than perpendicular. Like a muscle up but start from a finished pull up position (forearm up elbow down. That would be _much_ harder on the triceps. So 1. I don't think your perpendicular rule applies to all things, and 2. it's not always about exactly how effective your workout is for a specific muscle. If dips don't work your triceps very much than either do more reps until your feel the burn or do some other workout. I guess you are talking to the idiots but you'd really have to be an idiot to not be able to tell how worked a muscle is. As if they have no sense of muscular endurance or anything. They could be doing curls and think its working their glutes. They need your help.
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Lucas
Hmm, what he said about the change in the exercise making it more triceps oriented is true. But the reasoning is not. The actual reason for the variation he showed being ebtter to train triceps, is simply because at that position you cant use the chest as well as in the normal dip position, so you triceps have to do more work. But the levers part isnt true. WHy? because the triceps acts both on the arm and the forearm. In fact, it extends the arm. Which usually means moving the forearm, but once you fixate that, it will move the arm.
Same thing with anything else. if you have a table fan and you set it to move its head back and forth, grab it by the head and lift it. It will move its feet back and forth instead.
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Hmm, what he said about the change in the exercise making it more triceps oriented is true. But the reasoning is not. The actual reason for the variation he showed being ebtter to train triceps, is simply because at that position you cant use the chest as well as in the normal dip position, so you triceps have to do more work. But the levers part isnt true. WHy? because the triceps acts both on the arm and the forearm. In fact, it extends the arm. Which usually means moving the forearm, but once you fixate that, it will move the arm.
Same thing with anything else. if you have a table fan and you set it to move its head back and forth, grab it by the head and lift it. It will move its feet back and forth instead.
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Purple
The issue with this -physics- is that you do not account for relativity and newtons laws. Newtons laws (the third if memory serves) state that every action has and equal and opposite reaction. The tricep extends the forearm relative to the humerus. Therefor it must also extend the humerus relative to the forearm. You are getting the exact same perpendicularity of the relevant joint but with the opposite lever. That is why the traditional dip works the tricep. Your upright version only helps to isolate the tricep by reducing involvement by the chest and delts. That is why your triceps receive a greater relative load through your preferred method.
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The issue with this -physics- is that you do not account for relativity and newtons laws. Newtons laws (the third if memory serves) state that every action has and equal and opposite reaction. The tricep extends the forearm relative to the humerus. Therefor it must also extend the humerus relative to the forearm. You are getting the exact same perpendicularity of the relevant joint but with the opposite lever. That is why the traditional dip works the tricep. Your upright version only helps to isolate the tricep by reducing involvement by the chest and delts. That is why your triceps receive a greater relative load through your preferred method.
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Nathan
So by this logic do close grip bench press not build the triceps because the forearms are parallel to the line of force?
Or does a good low bar squat not build the quads? Shins stay parallel to the line of force.
I get the point of more ROM, but clearly you aren-t moving the dip handles; you are moving your body. Articulating largely around the elbow joint.
I get the concepts, but think they where incorrectly applied. Regular dips hammer my triceps! Probably the best thing I do for them!
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So by this logic do close grip bench press not build the triceps because the forearms are parallel to the line of force?
Or does a good low bar squat not build the quads? Shins stay parallel to the line of force.
I get the point of more ROM, but clearly you aren-t moving the dip handles; you are moving your body. Articulating largely around the elbow joint.
I get the concepts, but think they where incorrectly applied. Regular dips hammer my triceps! Probably the best thing I do for them!
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Daniel
Ordinarily I love this guy's videos, but this is pretty garbage. The forearm doesn't have to be perpendicular to gravity because his upper arm does which effectively mimics the same stress pattern on the tricep. The deltoid doesn't play nearly as big of a role in that move because the upper arm remains fairly close to parallel to the upper body, meaning there is comparatively little movement in the shoulder joint, relative to the amount of movement in the elbow joint.
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Ordinarily I love this guy's videos, but this is pretty garbage. The forearm doesn't have to be perpendicular to gravity because his upper arm does which effectively mimics the same stress pattern on the tricep. The deltoid doesn't play nearly as big of a role in that move because the upper arm remains fairly close to parallel to the upper body, meaning there is comparatively little movement in the shoulder joint, relative to the amount of movement in the elbow joint.
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Chris
Speaking of pain, and finding a way to do the exercise that works around it: I have recently started having right trapezius discomfort from bench pressing. It then tightens up the right side of my neck and deltoid too. Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong (I've benched for years without this issue, and how to work around/through it? I'm trying to concentrate on keeping my shoulders down and relaxed while pressing.
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Speaking of pain, and finding a way to do the exercise that works around it: I have recently started having right trapezius discomfort from bench pressing. It then tightens up the right side of my neck and deltoid too. Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong (I've benched for years without this issue, and how to work around/through it? I'm trying to concentrate on keeping my shoulders down and relaxed while pressing.
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