Hyundai SantaFe With A Battery Draw. Again
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Date: 2025-01-27
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Comments and reviews: 20
GeminiSeven43
Great video and it does make perfect sense (From a hack perspective) Step 1- Sub par mechanic type finds bad relay and replaces it with one that has the same number of terminals because Hey there cant be anything different if it has the same number of terminals. right Step 2- Same or different sub par mechanic now has to fix problem of car not starting and/or having many trouble codes and finds no power to part of the circuit and since the relay was just replaced it cant be that and so it must be a broken wire someplace and we just need to tie the two circuits together and fix it/ship it. Step 3 Highly intelligent Jedi Master mechanic (Eric O) troubleshoots system properly and finds the true problem and installs the correct relay and eliminates customer complaint of the power draw and everyone is happy. End of story.
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Great video and it does make perfect sense (From a hack perspective) Step 1- Sub par mechanic type finds bad relay and replaces it with one that has the same number of terminals because Hey there cant be anything different if it has the same number of terminals. right Step 2- Same or different sub par mechanic now has to fix problem of car not starting and/or having many trouble codes and finds no power to part of the circuit and since the relay was just replaced it cant be that and so it must be a broken wire someplace and we just need to tie the two circuits together and fix it/ship it. Step 3 Highly intelligent Jedi Master mechanic (Eric O) troubleshoots system properly and finds the true problem and installs the correct relay and eliminates customer complaint of the power draw and everyone is happy. End of story.
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autorepair
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worked as atech 40 years. retired a year ago. first rule i learned early in my career was to test not guess. usimg that rule i had many customers coming to my shop asking for me to be the only one to work on their vehicles. not only that but i was the one who had to do a lot of return warrenty work because some of the other techs were too quick to get the car fixed but never properly. but due to the over designed vehicles they make now I AM SO GLAD TO BE NOT WORKING IBN A SHOP ANYMORE. i now work on what i want to istead of doing what comes in. i only work because i enjoy working on vehicles still at my age of 71 even though i am not as sprite as i used to be and i enjoy watchiong others do the diagnostic work i once loved but dont have the patience i once had to do it
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worked as atech 40 years. retired a year ago. first rule i learned early in my career was to test not guess. usimg that rule i had many customers coming to my shop asking for me to be the only one to work on their vehicles. not only that but i was the one who had to do a lot of return warrenty work because some of the other techs were too quick to get the car fixed but never properly. but due to the over designed vehicles they make now I AM SO GLAD TO BE NOT WORKING IBN A SHOP ANYMORE. i now work on what i want to istead of doing what comes in. i only work because i enjoy working on vehicles still at my age of 71 even though i am not as sprite as i used to be and i enjoy watchiong others do the diagnostic work i once loved but dont have the patience i once had to do it
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chris_telclear
The real question is; why did the customer lie about the car being worked on by another shop It's clear when comparing the original video that someone was in there, they changed the relay and rewired the harness. Whoever it was also knew what they were doing. How would they even know that Mopar relay would work if you rewired the harness unless you had some clear knowledge of how that all interacted. I wonder if you have mechanics out there playing Stump the SMA guy. You've had several of these customer actions (lying) over the last year or so and it just seems like extremely odd behavior on their part. It just doesn't make any sense.
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The real question is; why did the customer lie about the car being worked on by another shop It's clear when comparing the original video that someone was in there, they changed the relay and rewired the harness. Whoever it was also knew what they were doing. How would they even know that Mopar relay would work if you rewired the harness unless you had some clear knowledge of how that all interacted. I wonder if you have mechanics out there playing Stump the SMA guy. You've had several of these customer actions (lying) over the last year or so and it just seems like extremely odd behavior on their part. It just doesn't make any sense.
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whatsthatnoise954
Different relays can have wildly different internal current carrying specs, too. Since original was driving two separate loads, internally it may have a higher current rating than the Mopar one. But spec sheets would bring that to light if they could be found. There must be a reason to keep the two loads on separate wires also, just tying them together and using the Mopar part could very well cause the one leg to get too hot. You are right to get the correct part and (in my opinion) you should disconnect the two wires again primarily to prevent future possible confusion but obviously that's time.
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Different relays can have wildly different internal current carrying specs, too. Since original was driving two separate loads, internally it may have a higher current rating than the Mopar one. But spec sheets would bring that to light if they could be found. There must be a reason to keep the two loads on separate wires also, just tying them together and using the Mopar part could very well cause the one leg to get too hot. You are right to get the correct part and (in my opinion) you should disconnect the two wires again primarily to prevent future possible confusion but obviously that's time.
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CuriousB58
My bet is a prior repair couldn't find the DPST (NO) relay that was used, so they wired the two poles together downstream of the relay and used a standard relay. To make it work in key off position, they snipped off the 87A terminal leg on the generic relay (SPDT. Then the generic relay became a SPST (NO) relay but the wiring change made it effectively a DPST. Only issue with this is the contacts might be overloaded now as the OEM surely designed with a DPST to split the load across two contacts for reliability. OEM wouldn't incur expense of a special relay if it wasn't needed.
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My bet is a prior repair couldn't find the DPST (NO) relay that was used, so they wired the two poles together downstream of the relay and used a standard relay. To make it work in key off position, they snipped off the 87A terminal leg on the generic relay (SPDT. Then the generic relay became a SPST (NO) relay but the wiring change made it effectively a DPST. Only issue with this is the contacts might be overloaded now as the OEM surely designed with a DPST to split the load across two contacts for reliability. OEM wouldn't incur expense of a special relay if it wasn't needed.
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airmailman1971
Here's your problem:
85 Coil
86 Coil
87 Normally Open (NO) with power off
87a Normally Closed (NC) with power off
30 Common connection to NO & NC terminals
Your circuit diagram didn't have a 87a (NC contact) so a relay with an 87a contact would have been wrong for that car. With an 87a type relay plugged in to the car, one of your Sense pins would have been hot when the key is off. THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM LADY. What's confusing is that car's don't always use standard electronics terms and diagrams yet are HIGHLY electronic now.
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Here's your problem:
85 Coil
86 Coil
87 Normally Open (NO) with power off
87a Normally Closed (NC) with power off
30 Common connection to NO & NC terminals
Your circuit diagram didn't have a 87a (NC contact) so a relay with an 87a contact would have been wrong for that car. With an 87a type relay plugged in to the car, one of your Sense pins would have been hot when the key is off. THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM LADY. What's confusing is that car's don't always use standard electronics terms and diagrams yet are HIGHLY electronic now.
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paul2lane236
Trowing in a standard 40a 4 pin relay in place of the 5 pin would have fixed this car. at least for awhile. However, since we don't know what the total current is of the 2 combined circuits, it may be overloaded. The manufacture put that double pole relay in there for a reason.
I love these videos where Eric seemingly gets everything figured out and it looks like the video is about to end, Then something goes off in his head, and he starts thinking out loud because something doesn't make sense. Now we get another 20 minutes of video.
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Trowing in a standard 40a 4 pin relay in place of the 5 pin would have fixed this car. at least for awhile. However, since we don't know what the total current is of the 2 combined circuits, it may be overloaded. The manufacture put that double pole relay in there for a reason.
I love these videos where Eric seemingly gets everything figured out and it looks like the video is about to end, Then something goes off in his head, and he starts thinking out loud because something doesn't make sense. Now we get another 20 minutes of video.
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johnnyq1233
I know exactly why this is happening!
The 87/87A relay flips the voltage between 87 and 87A. So there will always be 12v on either circuit all the time.
The 87/87 relay flips the voltage between both 87s and nothing. So there will only be 12v on the 87s when powered up.
Hope this clears it up for you.
The only mistake they made was not cutting off the 87A pin on the relay. They obviously spliced the 2 circuits in the wiring harness and didn't realize that this relay will put the power on 87 when on and then 87A when turned off.
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I know exactly why this is happening!
The 87/87A relay flips the voltage between 87 and 87A. So there will always be 12v on either circuit all the time.
The 87/87 relay flips the voltage between both 87s and nothing. So there will only be 12v on the 87s when powered up.
Hope this clears it up for you.
The only mistake they made was not cutting off the 87A pin on the relay. They obviously spliced the 2 circuits in the wiring harness and didn't realize that this relay will put the power on 87 when on and then 87A when turned off.
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phildegruy9295
The relay that was in there was a Single Pole Single Throw (SPST) relay. The 87 is the normally open contact and the 87a is the normally closed contact. When the relay is not activated, the circuit is connected to 87a and when activated, it switches to the 87 terminal.
The 87 87b is a Dual Make SPST with two normally open terminals 87 and 87b. The Dual make SPST relays are used to power two circuits at the same time that are normally isolated from each other as shown in the diagrams. Either relay will fit but only one will work properly.
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The relay that was in there was a Single Pole Single Throw (SPST) relay. The 87 is the normally open contact and the 87a is the normally closed contact. When the relay is not activated, the circuit is connected to 87a and when activated, it switches to the 87 terminal.
The 87 87b is a Dual Make SPST with two normally open terminals 87 and 87b. The Dual make SPST relays are used to power two circuits at the same time that are normally isolated from each other as shown in the diagrams. Either relay will fit but only one will work properly.
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SouthMainAuto
The good news is the new relay from Napa showed up the next day and it works perfect. Both sides of the relay (87 & 87) turn on and off at the same time and the car no longer has a draw. Somewhere someone tied those two circuits together though. However, the customer claims the car has not been to anywhere, but the facts are the facts, and we know that is not true. Needless to say, I double checked to make sure each circuit is still fuse protected independently and they are, so I left the whole mess alone. On to the next one!
-Eric O.
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The good news is the new relay from Napa showed up the next day and it works perfect. Both sides of the relay (87 & 87) turn on and off at the same time and the car no longer has a draw. Somewhere someone tied those two circuits together though. However, the customer claims the car has not been to anywhere, but the facts are the facts, and we know that is not true. Needless to say, I double checked to make sure each circuit is still fuse protected independently and they are, so I left the whole mess alone. On to the next one!
-Eric O.
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woolval52
I just watched this today, 1-27-25. I'm jonsing to see how it behaves with the correct relay, but I'm expecting it to behave the same. I'm sure, if you took apart that tape on the wires, you'd find someone spliced those two wires together. But I can understand leaving it alone if it works! I love how you approach issues and take the time to understand HOW it works before plowing forward with parts. Eric, don't sell yourself short. you are a rare breed of mechanic. LOL, you could never work in a dealership, you are too smart!
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I just watched this today, 1-27-25. I'm jonsing to see how it behaves with the correct relay, but I'm expecting it to behave the same. I'm sure, if you took apart that tape on the wires, you'd find someone spliced those two wires together. But I can understand leaving it alone if it works! I love how you approach issues and take the time to understand HOW it works before plowing forward with parts. Eric, don't sell yourself short. you are a rare breed of mechanic. LOL, you could never work in a dealership, you are too smart!
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pslny
Very impressive Mrs. O, really, nice work on the printer. I'm guessing it didn't work because Eric's last video, he said that he was waiting for a new printer. But great try, ink jets just suck. Hopefully Eric got off that fat wallet and bought a color laser printer, which is a little more expensive to run, but will be there when you need it. Don't have to worry about congealed ink, especially if you let it get cold in that garage after hours. Great video once again.
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Very impressive Mrs. O, really, nice work on the printer. I'm guessing it didn't work because Eric's last video, he said that he was waiting for a new printer. But great try, ink jets just suck. Hopefully Eric got off that fat wallet and bought a color laser printer, which is a little more expensive to run, but will be there when you need it. Don't have to worry about congealed ink, especially if you let it get cold in that garage after hours. Great video once again.
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aperson9495
What probably happened is they replaced the relay with a random one they had that happened to be a Chrysler relay and found that a ton of things weren't working with a bazillion codes at key on and figured there must be a bad wire somewhere, so they spliced them together, everything worked so they sent it. Of course they didn't check for voltage at key off, which they would have found like you did because power was now going out the NC terminal when off.
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What probably happened is they replaced the relay with a random one they had that happened to be a Chrysler relay and found that a ton of things weren't working with a bazillion codes at key on and figured there must be a bad wire somewhere, so they spliced them together, everything worked so they sent it. Of course they didn't check for voltage at key off, which they would have found like you did because power was now going out the NC terminal when off.
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tomtke7351
your misuse of relay double throw confused me. A relay has (-1-) poles and (-2-) throws.
POLES: number of switches
THROWS: number of connections for each pole.
This relay has two POLES, each a single THROW. But these swirches have a common input. Having two. POLES limits current thru each switch.
YOU CANNOT
A S S--U--M E
CURRENT WILL DIVIDE
E V E N L Y
BETWEEN TWO PARALLELED SETS OF RELAY CONTACTS BECAUSE IT WON'T.
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your misuse of relay double throw confused me. A relay has (-1-) poles and (-2-) throws.
POLES: number of switches
THROWS: number of connections for each pole.
This relay has two POLES, each a single THROW. But these swirches have a common input. Having two. POLES limits current thru each switch.
YOU CANNOT
A S S--U--M E
CURRENT WILL DIVIDE
E V E N L Y
BETWEEN TWO PARALLELED SETS OF RELAY CONTACTS BECAUSE IT WON'T.
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Chairman750
Okay, If that relay is powering both circuits, then you should be able to control those circuits with a 4 pin relay as long as the power, ground, and control pins match the fuse box wiring. I believe that the pins on that 5 pin relay do not have the same configuration as the original factory one. I had problems similar to what you are finding on some of the BMW's I used to work on. Great diagnostic work. Thanks.
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Okay, If that relay is powering both circuits, then you should be able to control those circuits with a 4 pin relay as long as the power, ground, and control pins match the fuse box wiring. I believe that the pins on that 5 pin relay do not have the same configuration as the original factory one. I had problems similar to what you are finding on some of the BMW's I used to work on. Great diagnostic work. Thanks.
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robertrepka7069
Since the relay powers both circuits together, the reason for 2 sets of contacts must be to mot exceed the power rating of those contacts. A visual inspection should show tape somewhere, which probably means that is where the repair was done. Most likely the TIPM had a problem and that was their fix. Hope the fixer tied the wirez before the fuses. If they did it after, it was fuxed, not fixed. Hahahahahaha.
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Since the relay powers both circuits together, the reason for 2 sets of contacts must be to mot exceed the power rating of those contacts. A visual inspection should show tape somewhere, which probably means that is where the repair was done. Most likely the TIPM had a problem and that was their fix. Hope the fixer tied the wirez before the fuses. If they did it after, it was fuxed, not fixed. Hahahahahaha.
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johnhermann762
Eric, according to the schematics you display in this video, the two sides of the relay are tied together internally when the relay closes. So it doesn't really matter that the two load lines are tied together in the car harness. Basically the double throw relay acts like a single throw relay in this circuit, it seems like that is okay. Not sure why there is a current draw; did you ever figure that out
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Eric, according to the schematics you display in this video, the two sides of the relay are tied together internally when the relay closes. So it doesn't really matter that the two load lines are tied together in the car harness. Basically the double throw relay acts like a single throw relay in this circuit, it seems like that is okay. Not sure why there is a current draw; did you ever figure that out
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mariosaccoccio1688
If you need to do some relay swapping, always be sure they share the same OEM part number, because they ain't all the same, just because they fit into the holes. Square pegs don't fit into round holes, although I've seen someone installed a GM point-type distributor rotor in backwards (square peg in round hole) then mounted the distributor with the advance facing in the wrong direction.
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If you need to do some relay swapping, always be sure they share the same OEM part number, because they ain't all the same, just because they fit into the holes. Square pegs don't fit into round holes, although I've seen someone installed a GM point-type distributor rotor in backwards (square peg in round hole) then mounted the distributor with the advance facing in the wrong direction.
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abw121
I am amazed with SMA videos consistently finding a problem Even SMA viewers can compare older videos to the recent seeing that someone else has been there and throwing bad parts at a repair Mr. O you are a great researcher taking time to find the draw and search the reasons Now get back to fixing that dang printer! We need more IT guys as compared to Auto Repair mechanics
Keep up the videos
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I am amazed with SMA videos consistently finding a problem Even SMA viewers can compare older videos to the recent seeing that someone else has been there and throwing bad parts at a repair Mr. O you are a great researcher taking time to find the draw and search the reasons Now get back to fixing that dang printer! We need more IT guys as compared to Auto Repair mechanics
Keep up the videos
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glassvial
That lady's full of it if nobody else has touched it - your previous video is literal proof someone was in there, old relay was white, new relay is black, new tape, etc. - she was probably just trying to get you to warranty it.
Also, 2 videos in a row with that Volvo on the rack, hopefully we're getting a video on that one, a rarity for an SMA video for a Euro car to be on.
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That lady's full of it if nobody else has touched it - your previous video is literal proof someone was in there, old relay was white, new relay is black, new tape, etc. - she was probably just trying to get you to warranty it.
Also, 2 videos in a row with that Volvo on the rack, hopefully we're getting a video on that one, a rarity for an SMA video for a Euro car to be on.
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