The rebirth of the FYRA in Italy with the ETR 700 Frecciargento - Still disastrous?
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Date: 2024-01-09
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Comments and reviews: 35
-ferrarisuper
Copy pasted and translated from the Italian wikipedia, so you can also see the italian side of the argument: In anticipation of the activation of international high-speed connections, in early 2004 the Dutch company High Speed --Alliance (born from the alliance between the railway company NS and the airline KLM) ordered 16 electric trains [1], and subsequently the railway company Belgian SNCB 3 others [2]. -
The start of the service was originally scheduled for 1 April 2007, but the trains were delivered with great delay; the tests began in 2008 on the Velim circuit [3], and only in April 2009 did the first train arrive in the Netherlands [4]. Despite the long construction times, serious technical problems were encountered, which required the return to Italy for further repairs [5]. -
The regular operation of the V250s began with the timetable change of 9 December 2012, but almost immediately there were alleged technical problems caused by snow and ice, which led to the suspension of the service from 17 January 2013 [6]. -
In the following months, the two railway companies set up a commission that hypothesized serious constructive deficiencies and worrying phenomena of corrosion of the materials; therefore the SNCB decided to terminate the contract and seek compensation, while the Dutch government appointed a commission of inquiry [7]. -
AnsaldoBreda, with an official statement dated 4 June 2013 published by the specialized press, rejected the accusations, communicating that it wanted to take legal action. In particular, the manufacturer disputed how the train had been certified as -acceptable- by NS and third parties including the Lloyds register, Belgorail and the Dutch and Belgian railway safety agencies. Furthermore, the same manufacturer pointed out that the inconvenience of January 17th was caused by the non-observance of the conduct requirements issued by the manufacturer for circulation in the event of adverse weather conditions. The black box of the Fyra recorded in fact that the safety system during the race had imposed three emergency braking, but totally ignored by the driver, who had continued to push the vehicle up to 250 km / h. [8]-
An ETR. 700 parked in Lodi-
In September 2013, another report, drawn up by the independent agency Mott MacMedonald, commissioned by the customers themselves, states that the V250 complies with the technical specifications required by NS and that the technical problems encountered are not major, so much so that the train in 17 months would be able to go from -acceptable- quality to -good- quality. However, NS proves to be an obstacle in the reconstruction of the events, refusing to provide the report to the manufacturer at first and asking the judge that the data of the surveys carried out by the rolling stock operator do not become part of the proceedings. [9]
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Copy pasted and translated from the Italian wikipedia, so you can also see the italian side of the argument: In anticipation of the activation of international high-speed connections, in early 2004 the Dutch company High Speed --Alliance (born from the alliance between the railway company NS and the airline KLM) ordered 16 electric trains [1], and subsequently the railway company Belgian SNCB 3 others [2]. -
The start of the service was originally scheduled for 1 April 2007, but the trains were delivered with great delay; the tests began in 2008 on the Velim circuit [3], and only in April 2009 did the first train arrive in the Netherlands [4]. Despite the long construction times, serious technical problems were encountered, which required the return to Italy for further repairs [5]. -
The regular operation of the V250s began with the timetable change of 9 December 2012, but almost immediately there were alleged technical problems caused by snow and ice, which led to the suspension of the service from 17 January 2013 [6]. -
In the following months, the two railway companies set up a commission that hypothesized serious constructive deficiencies and worrying phenomena of corrosion of the materials; therefore the SNCB decided to terminate the contract and seek compensation, while the Dutch government appointed a commission of inquiry [7]. -
AnsaldoBreda, with an official statement dated 4 June 2013 published by the specialized press, rejected the accusations, communicating that it wanted to take legal action. In particular, the manufacturer disputed how the train had been certified as -acceptable- by NS and third parties including the Lloyds register, Belgorail and the Dutch and Belgian railway safety agencies. Furthermore, the same manufacturer pointed out that the inconvenience of January 17th was caused by the non-observance of the conduct requirements issued by the manufacturer for circulation in the event of adverse weather conditions. The black box of the Fyra recorded in fact that the safety system during the race had imposed three emergency braking, but totally ignored by the driver, who had continued to push the vehicle up to 250 km / h. [8]-
An ETR. 700 parked in Lodi-
In September 2013, another report, drawn up by the independent agency Mott MacMedonald, commissioned by the customers themselves, states that the V250 complies with the technical specifications required by NS and that the technical problems encountered are not major, so much so that the train in 17 months would be able to go from -acceptable- quality to -good- quality. However, NS proves to be an obstacle in the reconstruction of the events, refusing to provide the report to the manufacturer at first and asking the judge that the data of the surveys carried out by the rolling stock operator do not become part of the proceedings. [9]
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-nicopavvi8494
I feel sorry for you. I took that train once and I really felt like it was a big error buying it. Usually the Italian high speed rail fleet is way better than this (I still believe the reason why Trenitalia owns it is way more political rather than a necessity to have more trains. I feel sorry for the Italian workforce too. They build trains for Bombardier, Alstom and Hitachi, but thanks to the idiots of Ansaldo who thought -hey, let's make a train whose primary value is BEING CHEAP-.
I don't know anything about engineering, but, my personal opinion, this train could be modified and used for regional services, it's spacious and at low speed it shouldn't be that noisy (or break apart.
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I feel sorry for you. I took that train once and I really felt like it was a big error buying it. Usually the Italian high speed rail fleet is way better than this (I still believe the reason why Trenitalia owns it is way more political rather than a necessity to have more trains. I feel sorry for the Italian workforce too. They build trains for Bombardier, Alstom and Hitachi, but thanks to the idiots of Ansaldo who thought -hey, let's make a train whose primary value is BEING CHEAP-.
I don't know anything about engineering, but, my personal opinion, this train could be modified and used for regional services, it's spacious and at low speed it shouldn't be that noisy (or break apart.
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-stefanokasuga4384
The sensors of the automatic doors are all subject to breakage sooner or later, for this reason on almost all trains in Italy, the doors between the carriages all have the opening and closing buttons. The only remaining problems on this train are two: one the furnitures. I admit that the chairs are not exactly comfy. And two: the biggest problems: the low number of toilets! Imagine this: a man suddendly has an urgency. then he need to run between carriages. And pray all the Saints in Heaven that: 1) the bathroom is not broken, 2) the bathroom is free: DDDDDDD Really a bad bad bad choice here, especially for a long travel between two cities.
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The sensors of the automatic doors are all subject to breakage sooner or later, for this reason on almost all trains in Italy, the doors between the carriages all have the opening and closing buttons. The only remaining problems on this train are two: one the furnitures. I admit that the chairs are not exactly comfy. And two: the biggest problems: the low number of toilets! Imagine this: a man suddendly has an urgency. then he need to run between carriages. And pray all the Saints in Heaven that: 1) the bathroom is not broken, 2) the bathroom is free: DDDDDDD Really a bad bad bad choice here, especially for a long travel between two cities.
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-Brauiz90
These trains look like they're built to have some trains rolling. Not comfortable, lots of noises and so many fails in the beginning. I live close to the city of Leipzig, Germany and here we have a company that builds and services trams all over Europe (-Heiterblick-) - ther trams for Hannover had been great and the trams for Leipzig had been okay. noisy, shaking and a weird shape (front and back entrance are angled weird and with stairs) - they got a new order for 3 cities and this time I hope they're better.
Here our commuter trains are a better standard than the train shown in this video.
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These trains look like they're built to have some trains rolling. Not comfortable, lots of noises and so many fails in the beginning. I live close to the city of Leipzig, Germany and here we have a company that builds and services trams all over Europe (-Heiterblick-) - ther trams for Hannover had been great and the trams for Leipzig had been okay. noisy, shaking and a weird shape (front and back entrance are angled weird and with stairs) - they got a new order for 3 cities and this time I hope they're better.
Here our commuter trains are a better standard than the train shown in this video.
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-ositomaron
I did the Milan to Venice journey in the summer of 2017 on the Frecciarossa 1000. It was a great journey. I do not fancy the 180 miles (280km) journey aboard an old Fyra train - i knew trenitalia were bringing them into service after years out of service - that loud electrical noise in the video is awful - they need back in the workshop for that to get fixed. The hard seats are like the blue hard faux leather seats in FS regional train carriages which i travelled on my return journey from Venice to Milan - changing at Verona - from an FS double deck regional on to a Trenord train.
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I did the Milan to Venice journey in the summer of 2017 on the Frecciarossa 1000. It was a great journey. I do not fancy the 180 miles (280km) journey aboard an old Fyra train - i knew trenitalia were bringing them into service after years out of service - that loud electrical noise in the video is awful - they need back in the workshop for that to get fixed. The hard seats are like the blue hard faux leather seats in FS regional train carriages which i travelled on my return journey from Venice to Milan - changing at Verona - from an FS double deck regional on to a Trenord train.
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-ilex471
I had a copy of the original report by the Dutch train maintenance shop that assessed this train 10 years ago. Sadly i don't have it anymore, but it was devastating.
I tried to photograph a Fyra from Amsterdam to Brussels in the last week of 2012 on the Dutch-Belgium border near Breda, I was freezing my b-tt off, and it drove by so fast (then) that i didn't have time to focus properly. Alas, a week later the service was discontinued, the only photo i have of it is one of several trains standing in a marshalling yard somewhere near Amsterdam, waiting for better times.
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I had a copy of the original report by the Dutch train maintenance shop that assessed this train 10 years ago. Sadly i don't have it anymore, but it was devastating.
I tried to photograph a Fyra from Amsterdam to Brussels in the last week of 2012 on the Dutch-Belgium border near Breda, I was freezing my b-tt off, and it drove by so fast (then) that i didn't have time to focus properly. Alas, a week later the service was discontinued, the only photo i have of it is one of several trains standing in a marshalling yard somewhere near Amsterdam, waiting for better times.
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-MaartenOtto
Its not the FYRA experience I used to have when working on these trains. The bolts of the light fixtures flying around your head, loud bangs from the roof when entering a tunnel, random odd emergency brakes when flushing a toilet-. Yeah great stuff. Opened a bottle of champagne when they were banned to operate.
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Its not the FYRA experience I used to have when working on these trains. The bolts of the light fixtures flying around your head, loud bangs from the roof when entering a tunnel, random odd emergency brakes when flushing a toilet-. Yeah great stuff. Opened a bottle of champagne when they were banned to operate.
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-thomass8118
Thanks for the review, Thibault. Altough the train still isn't perfect (and sometimes encounters problems - which has been shown in trip reports from others, it's nice to see it hasn't been scrapped. Shame the problems could not be resolved (for whatever reason) when it was running in Belgium/The Netherlands.
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Thanks for the review, Thibault. Altough the train still isn't perfect (and sometimes encounters problems - which has been shown in trip reports from others, it's nice to see it hasn't been scrapped. Shame the problems could not be resolved (for whatever reason) when it was running in Belgium/The Netherlands.
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-fb55255
Personally never took the ETR700 but living in Italy and travelling often by train I saw them few times and every time I can't stop thinking how ugly they are! Prefer by far the ETR600.
Also from June 2022 the frecciargento services are suppressed, all trains will go under frecciarossa services.
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Personally never took the ETR700 but living in Italy and travelling often by train I saw them few times and every time I can't stop thinking how ugly they are! Prefer by far the ETR600.
Also from June 2022 the frecciargento services are suppressed, all trains will go under frecciarossa services.
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-cedarjet100
Lipstick on a pig I guess. Perhaps the remedy will be the future high speed units to Venice. What-s the timetable for that plan? I took the Pendolino made by Fiat from Rome to Venice way back when. I remember the hydraulics whining away in each turn much like an amusement park ride lol.
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Lipstick on a pig I guess. Perhaps the remedy will be the future high speed units to Venice. What-s the timetable for that plan? I took the Pendolino made by Fiat from Rome to Venice way back when. I remember the hydraulics whining away in each turn much like an amusement park ride lol.
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-ThisTheAviator
I'm sorry but the Belgians have no right to complain here, they wanted an etr500/1000 for the price of an intercity and they got it.
If i ask a contractor to build an olympic pool in my garden for the price of a regular house pool i can't complain if it has problems.
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I'm sorry but the Belgians have no right to complain here, they wanted an etr500/1000 for the price of an intercity and they got it.
If i ask a contractor to build an olympic pool in my garden for the price of a regular house pool i can't complain if it has problems.
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-BrawlBRSTMs500X
Despite the lacks of baths for a train like this, I traveled with the Albatros a lot and I love it. It's just like a train should be nowdays for me. Can't wait to travel on it again! I tried Premium and standard class, now I have to try business class with larger seat!
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Despite the lacks of baths for a train like this, I traveled with the Albatros a lot and I love it. It's just like a train should be nowdays for me. Can't wait to travel on it again! I tried Premium and standard class, now I have to try business class with larger seat!
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-NSE465
I really like these ETR 700 -Albatross- units. Yes thats their actual name. They had issues before but theyve had them ironed out and its made a pretty abysmal train into something decent. Admittedly there's gaps and issues but considering its history it could be worse.
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I really like these ETR 700 -Albatross- units. Yes thats their actual name. They had issues before but theyve had them ironed out and its made a pretty abysmal train into something decent. Admittedly there's gaps and issues but considering its history it could be worse.
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-dinostudios6579
I just rode on one of these when I was in Italy and it wasn't bad. I didn't notice the noise and the doors worked lol. Maybe it's just my low American rail expectations but I don't think I would've thought anything of the train if I didn't know from before.
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I just rode on one of these when I was in Italy and it wasn't bad. I didn't notice the noise and the doors worked lol. Maybe it's just my low American rail expectations but I don't think I would've thought anything of the train if I didn't know from before.
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train
Thanks for the video Simply, i like of this train the italian nike-name. The duck and Multipla Is very beautiful name. The most problem of this train in the few toilette. The train in good to a short journey, no to long journey, for example from Milano to Lecce. Bye
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Thanks for the video Simply, i like of this train the italian nike-name. The duck and Multipla Is very beautiful name. The most problem of this train in the few toilette. The train in good to a short journey, no to long journey, for example from Milano to Lecce. Bye
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train
-simplyrailways andaldo gave to sncb a use Book to learn how they must use that trains. but they did not read it. Etr700 was ordered for express service not for high speed Lines. sncb used for that making disservices and aftethat says that was a bad product.
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-simplyrailways andaldo gave to sncb a use Book to learn how they must use that trains. but they did not read it. Etr700 was ordered for express service not for high speed Lines. sncb used for that making disservices and aftethat says that was a bad product.
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-trainlagged
Apparently, it wasn't all AB's fault for the Fyra failure - AB did accuse SNCB/NS for running the trains incorrectly in cold/icy conditions.
It's sad to see the technical problems of this train still haven't been fixed, though. Nice video! :)
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Apparently, it wasn't all AB's fault for the Fyra failure - AB did accuse SNCB/NS for running the trains incorrectly in cold/icy conditions.
It's sad to see the technical problems of this train still haven't been fixed, though. Nice video! :)
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-yallowrosa
4: 00 the hilarious external design of the train (shaped as a duck/dutch face)
was explicitly required by the initial Holland railway authorities
the designer Pininfarina just renamed it -Albatros-
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4: 00 the hilarious external design of the train (shaped as a duck/dutch face)
was explicitly required by the initial Holland railway authorities
the designer Pininfarina just renamed it -Albatros-
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-lucaortolani2059
The court in the end put the blame not on AnsaldoBreda but I'm the companies for not teaching the personelle how to manage and maintain the trains
Basically, AnsaldoBreda was relieved of charges
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The court in the end put the blame not on AnsaldoBreda but I'm the companies for not teaching the personelle how to manage and maintain the trains
Basically, AnsaldoBreda was relieved of charges
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-buzzukfiftythree
Thanks for the video Thibault. We travelled on this line in 2014 using the Freccibianca services and they were fine. Not sure I'd want to spend the same amount of time in the Frecciargento train.
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Thanks for the video Thibault. We travelled on this line in 2014 using the Freccibianca services and they were fine. Not sure I'd want to spend the same amount of time in the Frecciargento train.
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-buz_iness
as an italian i can say this: when you travel on frecciabianca or frecciargento, never book a connective train in a short time after your arrival time. frecciabianca expecially is known for his late.
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as an italian i can say this: when you travel on frecciabianca or frecciargento, never book a connective train in a short time after your arrival time. frecciabianca expecially is known for his late.
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-Nicky_TM
Although I-m glad we-re replacing them with higher quality Coradia streams, I am quite sad that the speed from the trains will be downgraded to 200kmph compared to the Fyra which could do 250kmph
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Although I-m glad we-re replacing them with higher quality Coradia streams, I am quite sad that the speed from the trains will be downgraded to 200kmph compared to the Fyra which could do 250kmph
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-kevanhubbard9673
I saw one of those Frya's when I was going from Rotterdam to somewhere, can't remember where, a few years ago when I was in the Netherlands little did I know they wouldn't be there long!
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I saw one of those Frya's when I was going from Rotterdam to somewhere, can't remember where, a few years ago when I was in the Netherlands little did I know they wouldn't be there long!
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-ol7926
only a few Fyra trains were eventually repaired. Unfortunately, we still have no successor in the Netherlands and then I wonder whether the trains could not have been completely fixt here.
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only a few Fyra trains were eventually repaired. Unfortunately, we still have no successor in the Netherlands and then I wonder whether the trains could not have been completely fixt here.
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-jlugoholt
It seems beautiful but it sounds awful! It's like you said, someone is having a hair cut or the -plane- is falling. Let's hope it gets better with time, crossed our fingers on that.
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It seems beautiful but it sounds awful! It's like you said, someone is having a hair cut or the -plane- is falling. Let's hope it gets better with time, crossed our fingers on that.
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-NicholasNormand
hey there if ur gonna come to the USA number 302 and 301(ALC-42 engines the newest on the fleet for Amtrak) is leading the empire builder it already had it's inaugural run
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hey there if ur gonna come to the USA number 302 and 301(ALC-42 engines the newest on the fleet for Amtrak) is leading the empire builder it already had it's inaugural run
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-DangItshere
It seems that AnsaldoBreda is the most professional Controversial train builder from IC4 to the Fyra, glad they got bought up by Hitachi
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It seems that AnsaldoBreda is the most professional Controversial train builder from IC4 to the Fyra, glad they got bought up by Hitachi
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-buz_iness
my god all bad on this train. btw, and i think you know in italy u have to travel or with italo or with frecciarossa. other are all bad
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my god all bad on this train. btw, and i think you know in italy u have to travel or with italo or with frecciarossa. other are all bad
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-anyadaz
ugh I remember my colleague used to commute on Fyra between Amsterdam and Rotterdam for a little while. it was NOT fun from what I know.
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ugh I remember my colleague used to commute on Fyra between Amsterdam and Rotterdam for a little while. it was NOT fun from what I know.
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train
Probably the train is not top quality in terms of comfort, but it has not yet had significant safety problems, so make two considerations.
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Probably the train is not top quality in terms of comfort, but it has not yet had significant safety problems, so make two considerations.
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-AndreiTupolev
Interesting that it still carries the old number 4883 (4: 22, which identifies it as one of the former Belgian SNCB owned sets
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Interesting that it still carries the old number 4883 (4: 22, which identifies it as one of the former Belgian SNCB owned sets
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-gwnlars_8306
4: 31 You can still see the brakecheck-indicator. I don't know if its mandatory in Europe. But here in the netherlands it is.
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4: 31 You can still see the brakecheck-indicator. I don't know if its mandatory in Europe. But here in the netherlands it is.
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-juancasidis4387
hahahaa frecciArgento im argentinian lol but this it's first class compsrated whit trash service in country
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hahahaa frecciArgento im argentinian lol but this it's first class compsrated whit trash service in country
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-lox_2625
4: 01 don't worry, in all stations in italy the plattaform get sayed 1 minute of deparutre, even in small staions
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4: 01 don't worry, in all stations in italy the plattaform get sayed 1 minute of deparutre, even in small staions
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-marco_grt4460
I have a bad news, no more Frecciargento and Frecciabianca, all rolling stock are going under Frecciarossa
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I have a bad news, no more Frecciargento and Frecciabianca, all rolling stock are going under Frecciarossa
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