What if War Plan Red Happened?
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Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan Red was one of the color-coded war plans created by the United States Army in the late 1920s and early 1930s to estimate the requirements for a hypothetical war with the United Kingdom (the Red forces. [1] War Plan Red discussed the potential for fighting a war with Britain and its Empire and outlined those steps necessary to defend the Atlantic coast against any attempted mainland invasion of the United States. It further discussed fighting a two-front war with both Japan and Britain simultaneously (as envisioned in War Plan Red-Orange.
War Plan Red was developed by the United States Army following the 1927 Geneva Naval Conference and approved in May 1930 by Secretary of War Patrick J. Hurley and Secretary of Navy Charles Francis Adams III and updated in 193435; it was not presented for presidential or Congressional approval. Only the United States Congress has the power to declare war. [2]
In 1939, on the outbreak of World War II and Britain's war against Nazi Germany, a decision was taken that no further planning was required but that the plan be retained. [3] War Plan Red was not declassified until 1974.
The war plan outlined those actions that would be necessary if for any reason the U. S. and Britain went to war with each other. The plan assumed that the British would initially have the upper hand by virtue of the strength of the Royal Navy. The plan further assumed that Britain would probably use its base in Canada as a springboard from which to initiate an invasion of the United States. The assumption was taken that at first Britain would fight a defensive battle against invading American forces, but that the U. S. would eventually defeat the British by blockading Britain and cutting off its food supplies. [4]
and this is the british thinks of usa invading them
The Royal Navy never prepared a formal plan for war with the United States during the first half of the 20th century. The government of David Lloyd George in 1919 restricted the navy from doing so to prevent it from using American naval growth to justify building more ships. Like their American counterparts, most Royal Navy officers viewed cooperation with the other nation as the best way to maintain world peace due to the shared culture, language, and goals, although the British feared that attempts to regulate trade during a war with another nation might force a war with the United States. [6]
Royal Navy officers generally believed that if war did occur, they could transport an army to Canada if asked, but nonetheless saw it as impossible to defend Canada against the much larger United States, so did not plan to do so, as Canada's loss would not be fatal to Britain. A full invasion of the United States was unrealistic and a naval blockade would be too slow. The navy could not use a defensive strategy of waiting for the American fleet to cross the Atlantic because Imperial trade would be left too vulnerable. The Royal Navy officers believed that Britain was vulnerable to a supply blockade and that if a superior American fleet appeared near the British Isles, the Isles would quickly surrender. The officers planned to, instead, attack the American fleet from a Western Hemisphere base, likely Bermuda, while other ships based in Canada and the West Indies would attack American shipping and protect Imperial trade. The navy would also bombard coastal bases and make small amphibious assaults. India and Australia would help capture Manila to prevent American attacks on British trade in Asia and perhaps a conquest of Hong Kong. The officers hoped that such acts would result in a stalemate making continued war unpopular in the United States, followed by a negotiated peace. [6]
Date: 2022-07-15
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Comments and reviews: 9
wariyoshidirector
You know, if this war DID take place in 1935, I could easily see America allying with the Nazis. They wanted to preserve democracy in Europe, sure, but after 4 years of war, when 1939 rolls around and WWII begins, they might hate Britain more than they would the Nazis. Not to mention they would still probably keep the UK as a democracy in Europe (politically untouchable by the Nazis as America would be occupying it, might I add. It would just be a puppet government controlled by the US. This would still give the US the option to invade Europe in the future with a launching point, while still keeping the last democracy in Europe. But maybe they wouldn't even WANT to fight the Nazis in this timeline. After all, there were definitely fascist sympathizers in the US at the time and Hitler was actually a fan of how the Americans treated black people, so the two countries weren't ENTIRELY ideologically opposed. So maybe America would agree to ally with the Nazis in exchange for some bases to operate out of in France. This might make the US grateful toward Germany and make them want to make peace with one another. Of course FDR opposed the Nazis, but in a wartime culture, who's to say that the American public doesn't elect a more warlike president who would care less about the people of Europe and Nazi expansion? If this all happened, an American invasion of Britain is entirely possible and with the US at the Nazi's backs fighting Britain for them, they could focus on their colonial territories and, more importantly, the Soviet Union. But perhaps the US would not only ally with the Nazis, but the Japanese as well, as they would need Japanese help in order to invade Australia (or if they wanted to support the Japanese invasion of Australia. If America committed to War Plan Red which spilled into WWII, I regret to say it's even possible that the US public could have been impressed with effectiveness of the Nazi regime and possibly even voted to become fascist as well. I'm not saying that if War Plan Red had happened this is the most LIKELY scenario, but it's definitely a feasible one. At the very least, I do think the US would develop a working relationship with the Germans, use their French bases to launch assaults on Britain, and eventually have taken the UK unless they made peace with the Brits by 1939.
All-in-all, a pretty bad scenario for the world: x
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You know, if this war DID take place in 1935, I could easily see America allying with the Nazis. They wanted to preserve democracy in Europe, sure, but after 4 years of war, when 1939 rolls around and WWII begins, they might hate Britain more than they would the Nazis. Not to mention they would still probably keep the UK as a democracy in Europe (politically untouchable by the Nazis as America would be occupying it, might I add. It would just be a puppet government controlled by the US. This would still give the US the option to invade Europe in the future with a launching point, while still keeping the last democracy in Europe. But maybe they wouldn't even WANT to fight the Nazis in this timeline. After all, there were definitely fascist sympathizers in the US at the time and Hitler was actually a fan of how the Americans treated black people, so the two countries weren't ENTIRELY ideologically opposed. So maybe America would agree to ally with the Nazis in exchange for some bases to operate out of in France. This might make the US grateful toward Germany and make them want to make peace with one another. Of course FDR opposed the Nazis, but in a wartime culture, who's to say that the American public doesn't elect a more warlike president who would care less about the people of Europe and Nazi expansion? If this all happened, an American invasion of Britain is entirely possible and with the US at the Nazi's backs fighting Britain for them, they could focus on their colonial territories and, more importantly, the Soviet Union. But perhaps the US would not only ally with the Nazis, but the Japanese as well, as they would need Japanese help in order to invade Australia (or if they wanted to support the Japanese invasion of Australia. If America committed to War Plan Red which spilled into WWII, I regret to say it's even possible that the US public could have been impressed with effectiveness of the Nazi regime and possibly even voted to become fascist as well. I'm not saying that if War Plan Red had happened this is the most LIKELY scenario, but it's definitely a feasible one. At the very least, I do think the US would develop a working relationship with the Germans, use their French bases to launch assaults on Britain, and eventually have taken the UK unless they made peace with the Brits by 1939.
All-in-all, a pretty bad scenario for the world: x
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Stephen
An article I read years back on this subject in Military History Quarterly had a slightly different Canadian plan. It was unofficial and had been created by a staff officer whose name I do not recall, but it did not envision taking and holding US near-border cities. That would have been absurd. It fit better with what you describe as the British plan: to aid Canada if Canada survived long enough to request aid. Thus, the goal was to survive long enough to do just that. The Canadian plan called for a first strike in which they were to cross the border, seize or destroy all rolling stock and ferries, destroy as much as they could of US rail lines, roads, and harbors, then withdraw into a defensive crouch, destroying any pertinent bridges and defending the ports through which any British reinforcements would arrive. It was clever, and given the limited resources they could have deployed, as good an idea as any other.
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An article I read years back on this subject in Military History Quarterly had a slightly different Canadian plan. It was unofficial and had been created by a staff officer whose name I do not recall, but it did not envision taking and holding US near-border cities. That would have been absurd. It fit better with what you describe as the British plan: to aid Canada if Canada survived long enough to request aid. Thus, the goal was to survive long enough to do just that. The Canadian plan called for a first strike in which they were to cross the border, seize or destroy all rolling stock and ferries, destroy as much as they could of US rail lines, roads, and harbors, then withdraw into a defensive crouch, destroying any pertinent bridges and defending the ports through which any British reinforcements would arrive. It was clever, and given the limited resources they could have deployed, as good an idea as any other.
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shagwellington
Yl? our map has the American cities in the wrong places. Didn't you use a real map for a model? You have Spokane in South Central Washington when it is actually on the Idaho border way up to the Northeast. You have Albany NY where Manhattan is. You have Niagra 500 miles south of the American-Canadian border, You have Detroit on the border of Kentucky and Ohio, no where near Michigan, Minneapolis is not in South Central Iowa, Butte Montana is not on the border of Utah, it is much farther north, Fargo is farther north and not just a little bit. Portland is not on the border with California, it borders Washington. Who drew this map? a 3rd grader? You've got Seattle out in the Pacific Ocean much further south than it should be. Your ideas are good but your credibility is hurt by such sloppy geography and what is war but the attempt to alter geography and political domination.
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Yl? our map has the American cities in the wrong places. Didn't you use a real map for a model? You have Spokane in South Central Washington when it is actually on the Idaho border way up to the Northeast. You have Albany NY where Manhattan is. You have Niagra 500 miles south of the American-Canadian border, You have Detroit on the border of Kentucky and Ohio, no where near Michigan, Minneapolis is not in South Central Iowa, Butte Montana is not on the border of Utah, it is much farther north, Fargo is farther north and not just a little bit. Portland is not on the border with California, it borders Washington. Who drew this map? a 3rd grader? You've got Seattle out in the Pacific Ocean much further south than it should be. Your ideas are good but your credibility is hurt by such sloppy geography and what is war but the attempt to alter geography and political domination.
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The
You seem to mention numbers a lot but wars and battles aren't always won by numbers and Hitler wanted Britain to join him in WW2 so with the Germans probably giving support to the British and the US getting no support just maybe France who hadn't changed since WW1 the outcome would be a lot different than you say and with Japan bombing Pearl Harbor there was more than one reason as to why they bombed it, so it would still be likely if they bombed Pearl Harbor. You also mention that the US could conquer Canada quickly but say the Germans can't conquer the Soviet Union and Japan can't conquer China because of their sizes. At this point, you're just sucking off the Americans, the Canadians could always retreat to the Arctic as well.
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You seem to mention numbers a lot but wars and battles aren't always won by numbers and Hitler wanted Britain to join him in WW2 so with the Germans probably giving support to the British and the US getting no support just maybe France who hadn't changed since WW1 the outcome would be a lot different than you say and with Japan bombing Pearl Harbor there was more than one reason as to why they bombed it, so it would still be likely if they bombed Pearl Harbor. You also mention that the US could conquer Canada quickly but say the Germans can't conquer the Soviet Union and Japan can't conquer China because of their sizes. At this point, you're just sucking off the Americans, the Canadians could always retreat to the Arctic as well.
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Vector
What if, since the Germans would want the British to win. The French would support the Americans in fear of Germany and reigniting the hatred for the British? In my opinion this would lead to an alternative world war, America, since World War Two caused massive changes, ie Aircraft carriers over battleships. Would have to use its battleships and dreadnoughts vs Great Britains. it would be the the shell slugging naval battles predicted in the lead up to World War One with aircraft carriers doing little to moderate damage. But ultimately I think America would lose to the U. K. (In the naval war) and I think we'd see trench warfare or stalemates as no one would want to make the bloody offensive. It's interesting stuff
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What if, since the Germans would want the British to win. The French would support the Americans in fear of Germany and reigniting the hatred for the British? In my opinion this would lead to an alternative world war, America, since World War Two caused massive changes, ie Aircraft carriers over battleships. Would have to use its battleships and dreadnoughts vs Great Britains. it would be the the shell slugging naval battles predicted in the lead up to World War One with aircraft carriers doing little to moderate damage. But ultimately I think America would lose to the U. K. (In the naval war) and I think we'd see trench warfare or stalemates as no one would want to make the bloody offensive. It's interesting stuff
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Just
hmm what about the British Home, Atlantic and Mediterranean fleets - I doubt they'd have sat silently by while America hit Canada and the Atlantic colonies. They would've destroyed the American Scouting fleet in the Atlantic in 3 days and proceeded to destroy New York, Boston, Philly, Washington and every east coast city. America would not be able to trade with Europe or Africa and would be cut off by Japan and Britain from trade with Asia. They would have been forced to due for peace within months, hand back Canada and pay huge war reparations. This video was obviously made by an American and a very hopeful one at that. lol
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hmm what about the British Home, Atlantic and Mediterranean fleets - I doubt they'd have sat silently by while America hit Canada and the Atlantic colonies. They would've destroyed the American Scouting fleet in the Atlantic in 3 days and proceeded to destroy New York, Boston, Philly, Washington and every east coast city. America would not be able to trade with Europe or Africa and would be cut off by Japan and Britain from trade with Asia. They would have been forced to due for peace within months, hand back Canada and pay huge war reparations. This video was obviously made by an American and a very hopeful one at that. lol
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mr
I think that the aggressor country would win the war. If Britain was the aggressor, they would not really care about Canada, but it would be a distraction for US troops. Britain had a far superior navy, so they would have blockaded and bombarded the east coast of the USA, until they gave up. If America was the aggressor, they would immediately capture Canada and the Bahamas. They had a far superior industrial output, so they would have built up a huge navy that could rival the British navy, so the blockade could not have happened, and the British would eventually give up.
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I think that the aggressor country would win the war. If Britain was the aggressor, they would not really care about Canada, but it would be a distraction for US troops. Britain had a far superior navy, so they would have blockaded and bombarded the east coast of the USA, until they gave up. If America was the aggressor, they would immediately capture Canada and the Bahamas. They had a far superior industrial output, so they would have built up a huge navy that could rival the British navy, so the blockade could not have happened, and the British would eventually give up.
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Luke
Had Operation War plan Red taken place Hitler's Germany would have launched The Blitzkrieg of Europe before Oct. of 1938. Hitler's Army were like Stallions chomping at the bit ready to be let loose against European armies N their Nations starting with Hitler's Army Armor punching towards the Czechs. There is a very high. probability there would not be a 2nd World War. With a America N England occupied by this idiotic Operation plan Red Germany may very well have solidified control of Europe
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Had Operation War plan Red taken place Hitler's Germany would have launched The Blitzkrieg of Europe before Oct. of 1938. Hitler's Army were like Stallions chomping at the bit ready to be let loose against European armies N their Nations starting with Hitler's Army Armor punching towards the Czechs. There is a very high. probability there would not be a 2nd World War. With a America N England occupied by this idiotic Operation plan Red Germany may very well have solidified control of Europe
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Rudraksh
7: 41 Somewhat False, Axis Powers had supported India's independence under leadership of Subhash Chandra Bose. It's very likely Japan would push forward into South Asia or atleast fund the Provisional Government Of Free India (Azad Hind Fauj) to continue their war with Britain. It's very likely an Anglo Japanese War is gonna break out for sake of a Greater Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere. India would likely gain independence earlier. Japanese Pan-Asianism was their policy.
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7: 41 Somewhat False, Axis Powers had supported India's independence under leadership of Subhash Chandra Bose. It's very likely Japan would push forward into South Asia or atleast fund the Provisional Government Of Free India (Azad Hind Fauj) to continue their war with Britain. It's very likely an Anglo Japanese War is gonna break out for sake of a Greater Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere. India would likely gain independence earlier. Japanese Pan-Asianism was their policy.
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