Der8auer Rants About Misleading W/mK Marketing (Thermal Conductivity)
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Date: 2023-06-07
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Comments and reviews: 14
Wracky
So when I wanted to repast an old laptop... I went to the thermal grizzly site, knew I didn't want liquid metal for this application.. so went to paste, and looked at the options they have. Came to Kryonaut and it had 5 stars on all fields of application ... so I went with that. When you don't care about a few euros more or less.. you go for the best option right ? No turn out I should have gotten Hydronaut instead... as it is more viscous, and will last longer (will not get pumped out as fast) ... and taking the laptop apart to re-paste it is a pain in the ass. Found other users online who saw their temperatures increase significantly with Kryonaut, in like a year or 2. ... So I mailed Thermal Grizzly to ask them about this, and they confirmed! They said the drop in performance should not be significant... but still.. they recommended Hydronaut for this application. So here's my problem with this: Calling something a Halo product, if its for a different application (LN2 cooling) is not helpful... by that point it is a different product for a different purpose... if buying the more expensive option is not recommended for a different application.. it should not be listed as better in that group... because people with money will buy the halo product just to have the best... and buy the wrong thing.
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So when I wanted to repast an old laptop... I went to the thermal grizzly site, knew I didn't want liquid metal for this application.. so went to paste, and looked at the options they have. Came to Kryonaut and it had 5 stars on all fields of application ... so I went with that. When you don't care about a few euros more or less.. you go for the best option right ? No turn out I should have gotten Hydronaut instead... as it is more viscous, and will last longer (will not get pumped out as fast) ... and taking the laptop apart to re-paste it is a pain in the ass. Found other users online who saw their temperatures increase significantly with Kryonaut, in like a year or 2. ... So I mailed Thermal Grizzly to ask them about this, and they confirmed! They said the drop in performance should not be significant... but still.. they recommended Hydronaut for this application. So here's my problem with this: Calling something a Halo product, if its for a different application (LN2 cooling) is not helpful... by that point it is a different product for a different purpose... if buying the more expensive option is not recommended for a different application.. it should not be listed as better in that group... because people with money will buy the halo product just to have the best... and buy the wrong thing.
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Siana
The correct way is instead of thermal conductivity, to think of thermal impedance. You would think W/mK value can be recalculated to actual layer thickness and then inverted to receive an impedance in deltaK/W but this is not the case. Because a thermal paste is one member of a chain from the die through the case through the paste through the coldplate through the various elements of the heatsink and ultimately to air. But the paste doesn't contribute just the impedance through the paste to this chain, but two further impedances - surface impedance from the CPU heatspreader to the paste, and surface impedance from the paste to the paste to the coldplate. And these two surface impedances are surface quality and surface material dependent and basically not characterised at all.
So that's not necessarily directly helpful either.
But i'd still love all cooler and paste reviews to try to convert to impedance measurements eventually.
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The correct way is instead of thermal conductivity, to think of thermal impedance. You would think W/mK value can be recalculated to actual layer thickness and then inverted to receive an impedance in deltaK/W but this is not the case. Because a thermal paste is one member of a chain from the die through the case through the paste through the coldplate through the various elements of the heatsink and ultimately to air. But the paste doesn't contribute just the impedance through the paste to this chain, but two further impedances - surface impedance from the CPU heatspreader to the paste, and surface impedance from the paste to the paste to the coldplate. And these two surface impedances are surface quality and surface material dependent and basically not characterised at all.
So that's not necessarily directly helpful either.
But i'd still love all cooler and paste reviews to try to convert to impedance measurements eventually.
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Carbon
Thermal conductivity outside of marketing hyperbole is a study I've taken to the extreme for composite jet engine parts; I've often thought about adapting my process for the ultimate heat sink for a CPU, but continue to run into practicality hindrances such that performance would be so far beyond what is currently accepted as 'high' that it would almost be a waste of materials. That, and as of the present, it couldn't be made for any price the typical PC enthusiast would call acceptable. Being designed to withstand extreme temperatures in constant use for a given lifecycle at 3000 C, for a PC part it would essentially be an infinite shelf life with no discernable wear. The flip side is that I couldn't manufacture it for less than 200 without going to industrial scale, which is not the direction I have in mind for the company or this particular process.
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Thermal conductivity outside of marketing hyperbole is a study I've taken to the extreme for composite jet engine parts; I've often thought about adapting my process for the ultimate heat sink for a CPU, but continue to run into practicality hindrances such that performance would be so far beyond what is currently accepted as 'high' that it would almost be a waste of materials. That, and as of the present, it couldn't be made for any price the typical PC enthusiast would call acceptable. Being designed to withstand extreme temperatures in constant use for a given lifecycle at 3000 C, for a PC part it would essentially be an infinite shelf life with no discernable wear. The flip side is that I couldn't manufacture it for less than 200 without going to industrial scale, which is not the direction I have in mind for the company or this particular process.
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Joanna
Just built my new machine, 7950X with an ASUS X670E-A (I know, I bought it before the current issues) and a RTX4090. I used hydronaut as my TIM but to be honest I don't think it would matter what I chose. That 7950X runs so bloody hot (at load) due to it's IHS, if I want it any cooler my only option would be a delid and direct die which I'm not 100% comfortable in doing.
Was an interesting build, 128GB of 6400 DDR5 that can NEVER run at 6400, the best I got was 4800 (5000 with occational boot failures.) I do like the 011D Dynamic XL case though. Just don't buy a shift version of a PSU though, you'll have to remove a drivebay, LOL. I was waiting for the new 011D Evo XL which now won't be out until October so got fed up waiting for it.
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Just built my new machine, 7950X with an ASUS X670E-A (I know, I bought it before the current issues) and a RTX4090. I used hydronaut as my TIM but to be honest I don't think it would matter what I chose. That 7950X runs so bloody hot (at load) due to it's IHS, if I want it any cooler my only option would be a delid and direct die which I'm not 100% comfortable in doing.
Was an interesting build, 128GB of 6400 DDR5 that can NEVER run at 6400, the best I got was 4800 (5000 with occational boot failures.) I do like the 011D Dynamic XL case though. Just don't buy a shift version of a PSU though, you'll have to remove a drivebay, LOL. I was waiting for the new 011D Evo XL which now won't be out until October so got fed up waiting for it.
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WakelessBee052
For me, MX4 is king.
Marketing says it last 8 years. I had MX4 for more than 2 years on an air cooled FX 8320 OC to 4.8GHz, thermals didnt change from first to last day.
After that I got a FX 9590 and installed with the arctic gooey with the same air heatsink, excellent temps until I upgraded to ryzen.
I have machines using MX4 for 5 or 6 years doing the same thermals than the first day.
-It is cheap, got a 20g tube for 10 bucks.
- It performs, No problem with an air cooled FX 9590.
-Easy to apply, Like hot butter.
-Last long time. Like a lot
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For me, MX4 is king.
Marketing says it last 8 years. I had MX4 for more than 2 years on an air cooled FX 8320 OC to 4.8GHz, thermals didnt change from first to last day.
After that I got a FX 9590 and installed with the arctic gooey with the same air heatsink, excellent temps until I upgraded to ryzen.
I have machines using MX4 for 5 or 6 years doing the same thermals than the first day.
-It is cheap, got a 20g tube for 10 bucks.
- It performs, No problem with an air cooled FX 9590.
-Easy to apply, Like hot butter.
-Last long time. Like a lot
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Carn
STEVE, ROMAN, MARCE! YOU GUYS NEED TO DO AN APP, It revolves around Specialist PC Builds. Using IR on Phone 3D scan the CPU IHS (& GPU 2 IF U DO) So you get a super refined placement choice when possy 'n you cooler plate.
Infact, Pie in Sky consumer item.... 3d Custom 3 Dimensionally Phatted Cooler Plates for Air & Liquid cooler systems. Perfect contact optimum heating.
By D!bGCN
Move onto optimising fits and finishes and appljcations within. Peeps PCs. All types of advices and pools of supports. And Fanboy section for photos, messages, games, dating. The loot
reply
STEVE, ROMAN, MARCE! YOU GUYS NEED TO DO AN APP, It revolves around Specialist PC Builds. Using IR on Phone 3D scan the CPU IHS (& GPU 2 IF U DO) So you get a super refined placement choice when possy 'n you cooler plate.
Infact, Pie in Sky consumer item.... 3d Custom 3 Dimensionally Phatted Cooler Plates for Air & Liquid cooler systems. Perfect contact optimum heating.
By D!bGCN
Move onto optimising fits and finishes and appljcations within. Peeps PCs. All types of advices and pools of supports. And Fanboy section for photos, messages, games, dating. The loot
reply
Goorthiss
10:22 if you are not working on a phase change substance similar to PTM7950, then I advise you not to invest too much money on producing a product similar to Grizzly Kryonaut, because it is just a waste of money. The future is a substance in the form of compressed paste, which can be easily cut to the size of the IHS/core and which has a fixed thickness meaning there will never be too little or too much as well as the important aspect is that the substance does not lose its thermally conductive properties after a short period and will last for, say, 5 years.
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10:22 if you are not working on a phase change substance similar to PTM7950, then I advise you not to invest too much money on producing a product similar to Grizzly Kryonaut, because it is just a waste of money. The future is a substance in the form of compressed paste, which can be easily cut to the size of the IHS/core and which has a fixed thickness meaning there will never be too little or too much as well as the important aspect is that the substance does not lose its thermally conductive properties after a short period and will last for, say, 5 years.
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Plasma
I keep hoping der8bauer or someone comes out with a how to direct die to water block solder video. I have no clue what kind of flux, temperatures, solder. I suspect the indium solder would work but I think they put a thin layer of gold on the IHS to make it stick. I would like to see all the processes done so I would have a better understanding and better chance of it working. Even if I brake a CPU or 2 in the process it would be worth it. I don't want to brake a few CPUs and not know if I'm doing something so wrong I will never accomplish my goal
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I keep hoping der8bauer or someone comes out with a how to direct die to water block solder video. I have no clue what kind of flux, temperatures, solder. I suspect the indium solder would work but I think they put a thin layer of gold on the IHS to make it stick. I would like to see all the processes done so I would have a better understanding and better chance of it working. Even if I brake a CPU or 2 in the process it would be worth it. I don't want to brake a few CPUs and not know if I'm doing something so wrong I will never accomplish my goal
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Razerfange
Let's simplify this for the layman:
Manufacturers use 'thermal conductivity' as a marketing strategy, using deception as a ploy to make consumers believe something that isn't true the way they make it seem.
Deception
Lying
These are the methods by which they peddle their wares upon the unsuspecting customer with intent.
Thermal Conductivity is an actual 'thing' but, not nearly in the way its made to seem.
Manufacturers know this, they just don't care.
They only care about one thing
Money, all of it!
Cheers!
reply
Let's simplify this for the layman:
Manufacturers use 'thermal conductivity' as a marketing strategy, using deception as a ploy to make consumers believe something that isn't true the way they make it seem.
Deception
Lying
These are the methods by which they peddle their wares upon the unsuspecting customer with intent.
Thermal Conductivity is an actual 'thing' but, not nearly in the way its made to seem.
Manufacturers know this, they just don't care.
They only care about one thing
Money, all of it!
Cheers!
reply
itech
I still have a Prolimatech PK-1 Thermal Compound. I once build a Pc for my aunt it was an AMD Athlon 4850e (Dual core). When I bought it, it was relatively new. So could have been mid 2009. Summer 2022 I took the Pc apart that was used till then. I demounted the cooler and the paste was still like day one. It was not dryed out, it was still thick and sticky. I could have remount the cooler directly back on and it would have worked flawlessly I'm sure. Really impressed with the longevity.
Just a little shutout to Prolimatech.
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I still have a Prolimatech PK-1 Thermal Compound. I once build a Pc for my aunt it was an AMD Athlon 4850e (Dual core). When I bought it, it was relatively new. So could have been mid 2009. Summer 2022 I took the Pc apart that was used till then. I demounted the cooler and the paste was still like day one. It was not dryed out, it was still thick and sticky. I could have remount the cooler directly back on and it would have worked flawlessly I'm sure. Really impressed with the longevity.
Just a little shutout to Prolimatech.
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Ardgal
If only there was a reliable reviewer actually reviewing thermal pastes in a reasonable manner and not just doing some LTT-style I dunno we smeared some paste on this thing and it shows a number we didn't validate and here's a video about it lol
We'd need someone who is willing to do the long-term testing on automated platforms that are simulating real-world use over a period of 3 years or more preferably, after multiple quick tests to attempt to find a reasonable average mounting performance, or something like that.
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If only there was a reliable reviewer actually reviewing thermal pastes in a reasonable manner and not just doing some LTT-style I dunno we smeared some paste on this thing and it shows a number we didn't validate and here's a video about it lol
We'd need someone who is willing to do the long-term testing on automated platforms that are simulating real-world use over a period of 3 years or more preferably, after multiple quick tests to attempt to find a reasonable average mounting performance, or something like that.
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simrock
Mit Acht KEKW
Jokes aside, I've actually steered away from Kryonaut since I cba to reapply thermal paste multiple times a year, as the community does point out longevity issues with the product, even if it is the best thing out there. Same with Liquid cooling, it's most likely better than my big tower cooler, but there I can just visually check without any hassles if a fan has failed and don't have to hunt for eventual rogue fluid drops in the case or try and listen if the pump has failed.
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Mit Acht KEKW
Jokes aside, I've actually steered away from Kryonaut since I cba to reapply thermal paste multiple times a year, as the community does point out longevity issues with the product, even if it is the best thing out there. Same with Liquid cooling, it's most likely better than my big tower cooler, but there I can just visually check without any hassles if a fan has failed and don't have to hunt for eventual rogue fluid drops in the case or try and listen if the pump has failed.
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depth386
I don t understand W/mK i mean surely there is an increase in conductivity proportional to the surface area of contact between hot and cold, and inversely proportional to the thickness of the interface although this part is probably not linear. So when we say 8 W/mK or 17 W/mK does that assume a certain surface area like a meter squared and a 1 kelvin difference? The fact there s no exponent in the formula confuses the crap out of me.
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I don t understand W/mK i mean surely there is an increase in conductivity proportional to the surface area of contact between hot and cold, and inversely proportional to the thickness of the interface although this part is probably not linear. So when we say 8 W/mK or 17 W/mK does that assume a certain surface area like a meter squared and a 1 kelvin difference? The fact there s no exponent in the formula confuses the crap out of me.
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sleepib
If you halve the thickness of the paste layer, it's the same effect as doubling the thermal conductivity. It's one of the reasons that when applying thermal paste I try to get 100% of the area directly above the dies, but I don't try to get 100% of the area across the whole IHS. The other reason I don't try to get 100% coverage on the IHS is that the paste application techniques intended for that are more likely to trap bubbles.
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If you halve the thickness of the paste layer, it's the same effect as doubling the thermal conductivity. It's one of the reasons that when applying thermal paste I try to get 100% of the area directly above the dies, but I don't try to get 100% of the area across the whole IHS. The other reason I don't try to get 100% coverage on the IHS is that the paste application techniques intended for that are more likely to trap bubbles.
reply
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