How Does Your Shop Deal With Intermittent Symptoms?
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Date: 2023-03-25
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Comments and reviews: 14
autos
Mr. O. As a non-shop owner, non-customer, and view you from afar through the lens of a camera, I have this to say for what it is worth. I appreciate when a mechanic/shop is honest and to the point and willing to use the big words around me and take my story for what it is worth. What you showed here was straight up, logical, and the best solution for an intermittent problem. Just how dirty that throttle body was indicates to me had that been my car I would accept the 'lets try this first' solution rather than tossing parts at it or just plain turning someone away. You got an hours worth of pay and they have direction on the car's possible issues.
Sure better than my dealer experience with my Ram 1500 ecodiesel. I can't totally blame the dealer but it would have been nice if they had listen to my explanation of the issue rather than applying some canned solution straight from the bowls of the tech manual. The weather is warming up. I should start to see the issue crop up again. This will make it summer number 4 with this issue. Really wish it would throw a code.
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Mr. O. As a non-shop owner, non-customer, and view you from afar through the lens of a camera, I have this to say for what it is worth. I appreciate when a mechanic/shop is honest and to the point and willing to use the big words around me and take my story for what it is worth. What you showed here was straight up, logical, and the best solution for an intermittent problem. Just how dirty that throttle body was indicates to me had that been my car I would accept the 'lets try this first' solution rather than tossing parts at it or just plain turning someone away. You got an hours worth of pay and they have direction on the car's possible issues.
Sure better than my dealer experience with my Ram 1500 ecodiesel. I can't totally blame the dealer but it would have been nice if they had listen to my explanation of the issue rather than applying some canned solution straight from the bowls of the tech manual. The weather is warming up. I should start to see the issue crop up again. This will make it summer number 4 with this issue. Really wish it would throw a code.
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Greg
Over my career as a mechanic, it has always been customer concern dependent. The concern in this video, I definitely would have looked at the throttle body first, as the old GM 3800's come to mind for their hot start/stumble issue. Other issues I just try to get as much info up front as I can, for example maybe a window motor or lock actuator acting up, is it weather dependent, doesn't work when rains etc. I always was upfront with folks about pricing, and never skipped the visual on anything. My career has actually taken me down a bit different path the last couple of years now that I am mobile and go to collision shops to do ADAS calibrations, but I still am the go to tech for our company for diagnostics. Just usually now it has more to do with crushed wiring, connectors, modules, green crusties etc.
Keep up the great content, Dr. O! Just curious if you received the package I sent a few months ago?
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Over my career as a mechanic, it has always been customer concern dependent. The concern in this video, I definitely would have looked at the throttle body first, as the old GM 3800's come to mind for their hot start/stumble issue. Other issues I just try to get as much info up front as I can, for example maybe a window motor or lock actuator acting up, is it weather dependent, doesn't work when rains etc. I always was upfront with folks about pricing, and never skipped the visual on anything. My career has actually taken me down a bit different path the last couple of years now that I am mobile and go to collision shops to do ADAS calibrations, but I still am the go to tech for our company for diagnostics. Just usually now it has more to do with crushed wiring, connectors, modules, green crusties etc.
Keep up the great content, Dr. O! Just curious if you received the package I sent a few months ago?
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Garth
Yes, intermittants are just that, hit and miss. Whats a great advantage these days is that we all have some kind of access to video recording which could be used by the owners in that each time before they start their vehicle, they can hit record and place the phone/camera in a location best for observing the issue and leave it recording for when the problem starts. Of course it would take some fair experience in video recording to get that just right for the mechanic to be of any help.
Lots of shops recommend WIX filters for aftermarket quality. likely the least that don't fit right and they aren't the least expensive but less than OEM.
I've witnesses several auto repair videos that show cleaning a throttle body that is only slightly dirty at the butterfly will improve idle BIG time if it does at all. It's all worth doing and never a waste of time when tracing down the culprit.
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Yes, intermittants are just that, hit and miss. Whats a great advantage these days is that we all have some kind of access to video recording which could be used by the owners in that each time before they start their vehicle, they can hit record and place the phone/camera in a location best for observing the issue and leave it recording for when the problem starts. Of course it would take some fair experience in video recording to get that just right for the mechanic to be of any help.
Lots of shops recommend WIX filters for aftermarket quality. likely the least that don't fit right and they aren't the least expensive but less than OEM.
I've witnesses several auto repair videos that show cleaning a throttle body that is only slightly dirty at the butterfly will improve idle BIG time if it does at all. It's all worth doing and never a waste of time when tracing down the culprit.
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calholli
It's always fun when it doesn't trip any codes. Does it trip codes if the fuel pump quits for a few seconds and then comes back on? I think I would have done a fuel pressure test, could be a clogging fuel filter. Maybe some bad gas or water in the tank (not likely- that would probably trigger fuel trims. Another odd thing that doesn't throw codes is a clogged exhaust; but it's weird to clog itself and then suddenly unclog (so likely not it. Most other issues will throw a code. It could be a dripping injector, but again- that should probably throw an 02 sensor code or fuel trims, etc. Maybe coolant is a little low with an air pocket and it's causing wonky temp readings and thinking it's cold outside, and the computer is adjusting the wrong fuel amount, even though it's still within normal specs and not tripping codes. .lol. IDK.
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It's always fun when it doesn't trip any codes. Does it trip codes if the fuel pump quits for a few seconds and then comes back on? I think I would have done a fuel pressure test, could be a clogging fuel filter. Maybe some bad gas or water in the tank (not likely- that would probably trigger fuel trims. Another odd thing that doesn't throw codes is a clogged exhaust; but it's weird to clog itself and then suddenly unclog (so likely not it. Most other issues will throw a code. It could be a dripping injector, but again- that should probably throw an 02 sensor code or fuel trims, etc. Maybe coolant is a little low with an air pocket and it's causing wonky temp readings and thinking it's cold outside, and the computer is adjusting the wrong fuel amount, even though it's still within normal specs and not tripping codes. .lol. IDK.
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Allister
Having done quite a few intermittent faults on all sorts of things. Try and reproduce the circumstances. even with my own vehicles. I then say, 'let the fault mature' as long as it is not dangerous or not a complete failure. I had a PATS system on a Ford Ranger. Would go for 3-4 months with no problem then it would start acting up. had the scope on it checked powers and grounds, check it was sending data, Yes I had several keys. Eventually I through an antenna ring at it and it fixed it. But I never caught it actually broken. Another one was a screaming noise loud and like a Cricket when the vehicle (Mitsubishi Lancer 2009) was moving at speed, wind noise yes, but where from. That turned out to be an incorrectly shut window. Yes that simple. After I had the noise analyzer on it for an hour or so. Fun as you say Eric.
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Having done quite a few intermittent faults on all sorts of things. Try and reproduce the circumstances. even with my own vehicles. I then say, 'let the fault mature' as long as it is not dangerous or not a complete failure. I had a PATS system on a Ford Ranger. Would go for 3-4 months with no problem then it would start acting up. had the scope on it checked powers and grounds, check it was sending data, Yes I had several keys. Eventually I through an antenna ring at it and it fixed it. But I never caught it actually broken. Another one was a screaming noise loud and like a Cricket when the vehicle (Mitsubishi Lancer 2009) was moving at speed, wind noise yes, but where from. That turned out to be an incorrectly shut window. Yes that simple. After I had the noise analyzer on it for an hour or so. Fun as you say Eric.
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Joseph
As a diy mechanic a customer I have had a 15 Elantra 1. 8 that would sporadically stall. Would read the codes no codes. Car would drive fine for me, give it back and under their driving conditions would stall. I eventually got it to stall for me and when it did stall would show a cam code (I don t remember off hand the code number) but it was a exhaust cam code. Swapped sensors around since they were the same part number and eventually it stalled with the code moving to the intake. Finally was able to pull the trigger on a cam sensor. It s not easy guessing on parts when I don t have enough experience with that manufacturer also don t have a high end scan tool or scope. Sometimes luck and reasonable though deduction have to be used.
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As a diy mechanic a customer I have had a 15 Elantra 1. 8 that would sporadically stall. Would read the codes no codes. Car would drive fine for me, give it back and under their driving conditions would stall. I eventually got it to stall for me and when it did stall would show a cam code (I don t remember off hand the code number) but it was a exhaust cam code. Swapped sensors around since they were the same part number and eventually it stalled with the code moving to the intake. Finally was able to pull the trigger on a cam sensor. It s not easy guessing on parts when I don t have enough experience with that manufacturer also don t have a high end scan tool or scope. Sometimes luck and reasonable though deduction have to be used.
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murphymb
One thing about Subaru, never hurts to clean mass air and throttle body, at least on the older models. People love Subaru or hate them, doesn't seem to be much middle ground. Had a FM car years ago with intermittent not gonna start issues. Only after it was warmed up, then you get stuck, hoping it would restart. Found a tech who got lucky and had it repeat the problem while was diagnosing. Bad relay, couple hours to find the problem, 15 part, fixed. His claim that he never got beat by an electrical problem was proven a couple more times in different vehicles. He moved to another state, I'm still in mourning.
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One thing about Subaru, never hurts to clean mass air and throttle body, at least on the older models. People love Subaru or hate them, doesn't seem to be much middle ground. Had a FM car years ago with intermittent not gonna start issues. Only after it was warmed up, then you get stuck, hoping it would restart. Found a tech who got lucky and had it repeat the problem while was diagnosing. Bad relay, couple hours to find the problem, 15 part, fixed. His claim that he never got beat by an electrical problem was proven a couple more times in different vehicles. He moved to another state, I'm still in mourning.
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TargaWheels
Been dealing with intermittent problems since 2015 in one particular car we have. Did everything under the moon (including what you just did) to try and solve the smooth-cut-smooth-cutcut-smooth (but never dies out. In the end I ended up adjusting my driving style to that car. Narrowed it down to electrical. Last thing I did a month ago was remove the fusible link (in the battery cable at the positive terminal) and connect directly. It runs a little better, but still cuts. We have an identical car (both 1995 Corollas) so I was able to swap parts between the two to find the problem. Never solved it.
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Been dealing with intermittent problems since 2015 in one particular car we have. Did everything under the moon (including what you just did) to try and solve the smooth-cut-smooth-cutcut-smooth (but never dies out. In the end I ended up adjusting my driving style to that car. Narrowed it down to electrical. Last thing I did a month ago was remove the fusible link (in the battery cable at the positive terminal) and connect directly. It runs a little better, but still cuts. We have an identical car (both 1995 Corollas) so I was able to swap parts between the two to find the problem. Never solved it.
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Rodrigo
TL; DR: 1. Happens after off and warm; 2. doesn't set a code (dumb sensor) or doesn't happen enough to trigger the CEL; 3. Variable component likely (not just on / off. Intermittent is always rough. With what the customer described, it seems that the issue is after a heat soak and after the engine has been turned off. Knowing that, the culprit seems to point to something electronic (hence the restart after warmed up is associated with the issue. The electronic thing is possibly dumb or intermittent enough to not throw a code. The electronic thing likely has variability beyond on and off.
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TL; DR: 1. Happens after off and warm; 2. doesn't set a code (dumb sensor) or doesn't happen enough to trigger the CEL; 3. Variable component likely (not just on / off. Intermittent is always rough. With what the customer described, it seems that the issue is after a heat soak and after the engine has been turned off. Knowing that, the culprit seems to point to something electronic (hence the restart after warmed up is associated with the issue. The electronic thing is possibly dumb or intermittent enough to not throw a code. The electronic thing likely has variability beyond on and off.
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TommioRS
I work at the local Subaru dealer and from what i have seen with this issue there is 2 things i do when this comes in. 1 there likely is a ECM update for the car that addresses heat soaked or intermittent starting issues under X conditions. 2 an idle relearn afterwards. All NONE TURBO Subaru's from 2005 to 2016 will need a idle relearn after the battery is changed or disconnected. Turbo and 6cylinders do not need to have a idle relearn but they can be performed if you like. Also the battery in this car looks fresh so i would just idle relearn the car and send it.
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I work at the local Subaru dealer and from what i have seen with this issue there is 2 things i do when this comes in. 1 there likely is a ECM update for the car that addresses heat soaked or intermittent starting issues under X conditions. 2 an idle relearn afterwards. All NONE TURBO Subaru's from 2005 to 2016 will need a idle relearn after the battery is changed or disconnected. Turbo and 6cylinders do not need to have a idle relearn but they can be performed if you like. Also the battery in this car looks fresh so i would just idle relearn the car and send it.
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MyWorldzVue
My go-to for auto cleaning is gasoline and CRC red can brakleen. That green can brakleen is garbage in my opinion. I have tried solvents soaps and household remedies to clean parts. I will admit electrolysis does work. I personally go by what works for me. The only problems I have with brakleen is it eats certain plastics and can harm aluminum this is just my personal experience. I might just try the amsoil. I get tired of this will clean better than brakleen and gas. I try it and go back to my go-to. Maybe I use the other stuff wrong don't know.
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My go-to for auto cleaning is gasoline and CRC red can brakleen. That green can brakleen is garbage in my opinion. I have tried solvents soaps and household remedies to clean parts. I will admit electrolysis does work. I personally go by what works for me. The only problems I have with brakleen is it eats certain plastics and can harm aluminum this is just my personal experience. I might just try the amsoil. I get tired of this will clean better than brakleen and gas. I try it and go back to my go-to. Maybe I use the other stuff wrong don't know.
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Festusian
people buy products because they see a sticker on a race car. I worked for some professional teams in a nationally known series. First: STP for the older viewers. Second: One team was getting a significant amount of money for prominently running the logo of a major oil company. We had a handful of their empty quart bottles in the transporter in case we needed to add oil in public view. Those bottles were filled with another oil that made a noticeable increase on the dyno. The sponsorship agreements never required actual usage, just logo display.
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people buy products because they see a sticker on a race car. I worked for some professional teams in a nationally known series. First: STP for the older viewers. Second: One team was getting a significant amount of money for prominently running the logo of a major oil company. We had a handful of their empty quart bottles in the transporter in case we needed to add oil in public view. Those bottles were filled with another oil that made a noticeable increase on the dyno. The sponsorship agreements never required actual usage, just logo display.
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John
I always try to let logic dictate my direction, which is difficult at best with an intermittent problem. You must rely on your experience to rule out potential causes based on the customer input, which sometimes can be minimal not to mention unreliable as well. The time I had a lady come in saying her car sounded like a low flying helicopter with a wheeze comes to mind. If the car comes back with the same issue, then at least you will know what it is not, which will allow you to focus on other potential culprits. Great video, thanks for showing.
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I always try to let logic dictate my direction, which is difficult at best with an intermittent problem. You must rely on your experience to rule out potential causes based on the customer input, which sometimes can be minimal not to mention unreliable as well. The time I had a lady come in saying her car sounded like a low flying helicopter with a wheeze comes to mind. If the car comes back with the same issue, then at least you will know what it is not, which will allow you to focus on other potential culprits. Great video, thanks for showing.
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Aanadir
Regarding intermittent concerns, it depends if it s a warranty vehicle or customer pay. If warranty, I do my best to duplicate the concern based on info given, if can t duplicate it we do nothing to the car. If I were to guess and be incorrect, that would be the first step in a future lemon law claim and a buyback situation.
If it s customer pay, I do what you do. Advise the customer of what my educated guess is and come up with a plan based on the concern, treating anything we do as a diagnostic step rather than an actual repair.
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Regarding intermittent concerns, it depends if it s a warranty vehicle or customer pay. If warranty, I do my best to duplicate the concern based on info given, if can t duplicate it we do nothing to the car. If I were to guess and be incorrect, that would be the first step in a future lemon law claim and a buyback situation.
If it s customer pay, I do what you do. Advise the customer of what my educated guess is and come up with a plan based on the concern, treating anything we do as a diagnostic step rather than an actual repair.
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