We Cheaped Out: 30 Thermaltake 430W SMART Power Supply Review
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Date: 2022-08-21
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Comments and reviews: 14
Spotty
Steve
The 430W total output rating is not misleading just because the +12V rail is only rated for 387W as suggested in the video. As it suggests the Total Power [Output] is the total output that the PSU is rated to sustain from the power supply; Total includes the +12V, +5V, and +3.3V.
Other higher end power supplies often are able to do the entire rated output on the 12V rail because they are using DC-DC to generate the minor rails (5V, 3.3V). They take the +12V output and convert it to 5V and 3.3V. This means DC-DC power supplies need to be able to output the full power on the 12V rail as the power for the 5V and 3.3V rail is being taken from the +12V.
The Thermaltake Smart 430W is a group regulated power supply which doesn't generate the minor rails from the 12V output, so it doesn't need to output the total power from the 12V. The 12V and 5V rails are generated together and the 3.3V is usually generated from the 5V output (generating from 12V is also possible but since 5V and 3.3V maximum output is grouped together at 110W it's likely generating 3.3V from the 5V rail). One of the big problems with group regulation is the power supply regulates the voltage of 5V and 12V together, so if there is a heavy load on the 12V rail which causes the 12V voltage to drop the power supply will compensate by raising the voltage to both 12V and 5V since they are regulated together, which can cause the 5V rail to fall outside of the +/- 5% tolerance allowed in spec - and vice versa if there's a heavy load on 5V and light load on 12V. These crossload scenarios are part of the reason why group regulated power supplies aren't recommended [at all really, but especially for] systems with high end CPUs/GPUs as the high 12V load can potentially drag 5V rail out of spec.
While the CPU and graphics card are the biggest power consumers in most systems, there are still a lot of things that require 5V such as USB devices, HDDs, SSDs, and more... Even though the power supply is only rated for 387W on the 12V out of the 430W total (90% available on +12V) you can (potentially, depending on the specific setup) still get the full 430W output from when you factor things like USB devices and drives. Just because the maximum rated output isn't available on the +12V rail doesn't mean it's misleading. Realistically having 90% of the power available on the +12V rail for a low wattage power supply like this is going to be perfectly fine for most systems except for very odd edge cases.
In a DC-DC system loading up the minor rails will reduce the output of the 12V rail, it's just that it's arguably more flexible as you could get the entire output on 12V rail if the 5V/3.3V rail isn't loaded, but it's unlikely you'd ever be using a system that only has a +12V load and 0W load on +5V. Whatever load you have on the 5V/3.3V rails is going to be taking that power from the 12V rail counting towards its maximum rated output.
I see a lot of comments on forums/reddit saying that power supplies are fake or lying if they can't output the maximum power on the 12V rail and it can be difficult trying to explain it to people, and I'm worried someone trusted like GN perpetuating the myth is just going to make it more difficult. You should instead educate people on how to read the output power table on the power supply label. The table shows the maximum output for the +12V rail. Instead of saying it's misleading just inform people that with cheaper power supplies (group regulated) if the total output for 12V is important to you then you may need to pay more attention to details of the maximum output of each rail instead of just blindly going off the total output.
I know GN is still new to PSU reviews, and I think this is the first group regulated unit you have looked at, so hopefully you get to read this and at least now understand why on this power supply (and other group regulated power supplies) the total output rating isn't the same as the total output on +12V rail.
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Steve
The 430W total output rating is not misleading just because the +12V rail is only rated for 387W as suggested in the video. As it suggests the Total Power [Output] is the total output that the PSU is rated to sustain from the power supply; Total includes the +12V, +5V, and +3.3V.
Other higher end power supplies often are able to do the entire rated output on the 12V rail because they are using DC-DC to generate the minor rails (5V, 3.3V). They take the +12V output and convert it to 5V and 3.3V. This means DC-DC power supplies need to be able to output the full power on the 12V rail as the power for the 5V and 3.3V rail is being taken from the +12V.
The Thermaltake Smart 430W is a group regulated power supply which doesn't generate the minor rails from the 12V output, so it doesn't need to output the total power from the 12V. The 12V and 5V rails are generated together and the 3.3V is usually generated from the 5V output (generating from 12V is also possible but since 5V and 3.3V maximum output is grouped together at 110W it's likely generating 3.3V from the 5V rail). One of the big problems with group regulation is the power supply regulates the voltage of 5V and 12V together, so if there is a heavy load on the 12V rail which causes the 12V voltage to drop the power supply will compensate by raising the voltage to both 12V and 5V since they are regulated together, which can cause the 5V rail to fall outside of the +/- 5% tolerance allowed in spec - and vice versa if there's a heavy load on 5V and light load on 12V. These crossload scenarios are part of the reason why group regulated power supplies aren't recommended [at all really, but especially for] systems with high end CPUs/GPUs as the high 12V load can potentially drag 5V rail out of spec.
While the CPU and graphics card are the biggest power consumers in most systems, there are still a lot of things that require 5V such as USB devices, HDDs, SSDs, and more... Even though the power supply is only rated for 387W on the 12V out of the 430W total (90% available on +12V) you can (potentially, depending on the specific setup) still get the full 430W output from when you factor things like USB devices and drives. Just because the maximum rated output isn't available on the +12V rail doesn't mean it's misleading. Realistically having 90% of the power available on the +12V rail for a low wattage power supply like this is going to be perfectly fine for most systems except for very odd edge cases.
In a DC-DC system loading up the minor rails will reduce the output of the 12V rail, it's just that it's arguably more flexible as you could get the entire output on 12V rail if the 5V/3.3V rail isn't loaded, but it's unlikely you'd ever be using a system that only has a +12V load and 0W load on +5V. Whatever load you have on the 5V/3.3V rails is going to be taking that power from the 12V rail counting towards its maximum rated output.
I see a lot of comments on forums/reddit saying that power supplies are fake or lying if they can't output the maximum power on the 12V rail and it can be difficult trying to explain it to people, and I'm worried someone trusted like GN perpetuating the myth is just going to make it more difficult. You should instead educate people on how to read the output power table on the power supply label. The table shows the maximum output for the +12V rail. Instead of saying it's misleading just inform people that with cheaper power supplies (group regulated) if the total output for 12V is important to you then you may need to pay more attention to details of the maximum output of each rail instead of just blindly going off the total output.
I know GN is still new to PSU reviews, and I think this is the first group regulated unit you have looked at, so hopefully you get to read this and at least now understand why on this power supply (and other group regulated power supplies) the total output rating isn't the same as the total output on +12V rail.
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Chad
I'd like to see 10% loads tested, the use case is i need a psu for my diy server and 80+ labels start at 20% load (except titanium) and since there are no sub 400W that have nice long 7/10/12 year warranties and my my calculations i am gonna need 12.4-19.2W for HDDs, 12W for addons, then there is the cpu and pcie cards, i figure that puts be around 50W, so having 10% load data would be very helpful since i can't just buy a quality retail 250W PSU and just get 90% efficiency... i have to buy a 550W+ unit (nothing else is for sale that is quality) so having 10% load data would be very welcome for low power system, if only i could get a office dell PSU, oh wait you can't just repurpose that property design e-waste
i have gone so far to try to get more stuff on the PSU as to have my server provide power to me internet modem, network switch, and PC speakers, audio amp and monitor speakers, the main reason for this is to put more load on the PSU to get high up the efficiency curve
if only Seasonic still made/sold a 360W gold unit like they did 10 years ago
the lowest wattage trustworthy PSU i can even find for sale is a 'EVGA SuperNOVA 450 GM' and that cost more than higher wattage units with longer warranties and 20% of that is 90W around double what my system will usually be pulling, so having 10% loads would give a good idea of the efficiency curve since you have 2% and 40% numbers
my old 300W seasonic PSU from 10 years ago seems to have gave up and i need long term replacement
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I'd like to see 10% loads tested, the use case is i need a psu for my diy server and 80+ labels start at 20% load (except titanium) and since there are no sub 400W that have nice long 7/10/12 year warranties and my my calculations i am gonna need 12.4-19.2W for HDDs, 12W for addons, then there is the cpu and pcie cards, i figure that puts be around 50W, so having 10% load data would be very helpful since i can't just buy a quality retail 250W PSU and just get 90% efficiency... i have to buy a 550W+ unit (nothing else is for sale that is quality) so having 10% load data would be very welcome for low power system, if only i could get a office dell PSU, oh wait you can't just repurpose that property design e-waste
i have gone so far to try to get more stuff on the PSU as to have my server provide power to me internet modem, network switch, and PC speakers, audio amp and monitor speakers, the main reason for this is to put more load on the PSU to get high up the efficiency curve
if only Seasonic still made/sold a 360W gold unit like they did 10 years ago
the lowest wattage trustworthy PSU i can even find for sale is a 'EVGA SuperNOVA 450 GM' and that cost more than higher wattage units with longer warranties and 20% of that is 90W around double what my system will usually be pulling, so having 10% loads would give a good idea of the efficiency curve since you have 2% and 40% numbers
my old 300W seasonic PSU from 10 years ago seems to have gave up and i need long term replacement
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Wapn
It's not a YCAP It is an MOV. It isn't a XCAP it is a Polyester Film Cap. Do you guys even know what they do? You guys have been hoodwinked by big box companies and don't understand what you are talking about. The reality is that any PSU is MORE then capable of doing the job asked of it. What you guys don't understand is that power conversion is EASY, and BASIC, unless you add a buck converter. Then you are adding a tonne of noise. Even a two dollar capacitor will half your voltage ripple. These companies are giving you what you pay for, and there is nothing wrong with a 90mV ripple. Your GPU's etc... have capacitors which filter that anyway. I could make a 10 PSU which will do just fine, 100 would be overkill, so for 30 you are going to get ripple. Use a 2 cap and throw it across your 12V rail, 5V rail, and 3.3V rail. But then that cuts into that 30. Those 400 PSU's are an absolute rip off... and intel wants to move the buck converters to it's board so motherboard manufacturers can charge more, and you have to buy a new one every platform. That's it. Your trip points are thermally limited, because parts at that cost point, use thermal protection. Otherwise you have to add a different circuit.
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It's not a YCAP It is an MOV. It isn't a XCAP it is a Polyester Film Cap. Do you guys even know what they do? You guys have been hoodwinked by big box companies and don't understand what you are talking about. The reality is that any PSU is MORE then capable of doing the job asked of it. What you guys don't understand is that power conversion is EASY, and BASIC, unless you add a buck converter. Then you are adding a tonne of noise. Even a two dollar capacitor will half your voltage ripple. These companies are giving you what you pay for, and there is nothing wrong with a 90mV ripple. Your GPU's etc... have capacitors which filter that anyway. I could make a 10 PSU which will do just fine, 100 would be overkill, so for 30 you are going to get ripple. Use a 2 cap and throw it across your 12V rail, 5V rail, and 3.3V rail. But then that cuts into that 30. Those 400 PSU's are an absolute rip off... and intel wants to move the buck converters to it's board so motherboard manufacturers can charge more, and you have to buy a new one every platform. That's it. Your trip points are thermally limited, because parts at that cost point, use thermal protection. Otherwise you have to add a different circuit.
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shane
G'day Steve & Stone,
Thanks for doing a low cost PSU as these are very much one of the first places people want to cut cost as it has no visual value,
While not a 'Performance Leader' (in No way expected) it is good to know that it will protect the other components when used in a build that has all it's parts chosen by Minimum.
Ps I am with you on the 430W Claim, I have seen this Claim Variance on many Low Cost PSUs & I too would rather just have the Actual 12v Performance rather than the confusion shown here, because for those this PSU is aimed at having 430W or 385W for an Optiplex Upgrade is not important as 385W will be plenty, but for those actually looking at 400W-500W Usage this is a disaster,
Stretching Facts to get Sales like this need to be cracked down on because Honesty for Safety is much more important.
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G'day Steve & Stone,
Thanks for doing a low cost PSU as these are very much one of the first places people want to cut cost as it has no visual value,
While not a 'Performance Leader' (in No way expected) it is good to know that it will protect the other components when used in a build that has all it's parts chosen by Minimum.
Ps I am with you on the 430W Claim, I have seen this Claim Variance on many Low Cost PSUs & I too would rather just have the Actual 12v Performance rather than the confusion shown here, because for those this PSU is aimed at having 430W or 385W for an Optiplex Upgrade is not important as 385W will be plenty, but for those actually looking at 400W-500W Usage this is a disaster,
Stretching Facts to get Sales like this need to be cracked down on because Honesty for Safety is much more important.
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Marcin
Great review, thanks! It's fantastic to see a thorough review for a lower end part like this without it being a just for laughs slam dunk on a garbage, dangerous part.
I do think that in the load testing for the review, you should stick to the sticker loads. On a higher end supply, meeting the overall sticker wattage on just the 12V rail might make sense. But for a budget supply, it kind of doesn't. Besides that, it seems somewhat misleading to apply gamer or overclocker standards to this kind of unit. If the sticker loads are correct, and it meets the ATX spec, then that should be emphasized a little more.
That said, SCP not working on a rail is bad! And no rational person would disagree with the conclusion of the video.
tl;dr: amazing content i love a good low end review
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Great review, thanks! It's fantastic to see a thorough review for a lower end part like this without it being a just for laughs slam dunk on a garbage, dangerous part.
I do think that in the load testing for the review, you should stick to the sticker loads. On a higher end supply, meeting the overall sticker wattage on just the 12V rail might make sense. But for a budget supply, it kind of doesn't. Besides that, it seems somewhat misleading to apply gamer or overclocker standards to this kind of unit. If the sticker loads are correct, and it meets the ATX spec, then that should be emphasized a little more.
That said, SCP not working on a rail is bad! And no rational person would disagree with the conclusion of the video.
tl;dr: amazing content i love a good low end review
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Last
Can you do a round up review on entry level PSU's from each tier? I'm very interest in learning more about platinum PSU's.
Really I've been interested in them for awhile, but I don't really understand beyond power efficiency what makes a platinum PSU worth it, or if even if they component quality is worth it over a higher end gold rated PSU.
I have to imagine there are some platinum rated PSU's which are not worth the cost due to cheaper components. While other budget option have more value to them. I've read reviews on different brands but comparisons are extremely rare.
After 10 years I kinda want to replace my Seasonic g750, its severed it purpose well, but I don't know how much life it has left in it, and wish to avoid potential damage when it eventually fails.
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Can you do a round up review on entry level PSU's from each tier? I'm very interest in learning more about platinum PSU's.
Really I've been interested in them for awhile, but I don't really understand beyond power efficiency what makes a platinum PSU worth it, or if even if they component quality is worth it over a higher end gold rated PSU.
I have to imagine there are some platinum rated PSU's which are not worth the cost due to cheaper components. While other budget option have more value to them. I've read reviews on different brands but comparisons are extremely rare.
After 10 years I kinda want to replace my Seasonic g750, its severed it purpose well, but I don't know how much life it has left in it, and wish to avoid potential damage when it eventually fails.
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BNR_248
We need more of these videos. It's surprising how many PC builders know nothing about how things work i.e. psus, cpus, gpus etc.. I work in IT and a few of my collegues, all PC gamers, know almost NOTHING about components. They know how to put a PC together and what the marketing tells them e.g. RTX 3080 is an amazing graphics card or AMD CPUs are great value . but they dont know why youd pick one part over another i.e. cheap 600w psus vs expensive. You'd be surprised how so many people think they need to splurge on high end CPUs to game and have nothing on the GPU. Videos like these that educate people do wonders. Helps them understand what to look out for when making purchases.
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We need more of these videos. It's surprising how many PC builders know nothing about how things work i.e. psus, cpus, gpus etc.. I work in IT and a few of my collegues, all PC gamers, know almost NOTHING about components. They know how to put a PC together and what the marketing tells them e.g. RTX 3080 is an amazing graphics card or AMD CPUs are great value . but they dont know why youd pick one part over another i.e. cheap 600w psus vs expensive. You'd be surprised how so many people think they need to splurge on high end CPUs to game and have nothing on the GPU. Videos like these that educate people do wonders. Helps them understand what to look out for when making purchases.
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TheSteelRodent
Since you were waving a graphics card around, I wondered if you'll ever look into how accurate the GPU manufacturer's claims about power consumption are? Like for the GTX1660 Asus and Nvidia both say you need a 450 W PSU, but finding a decent 450 W PSU capable of the +12V 45A the GPU needs to function is basically impossible (at least where I live), and for the GTX3080 they say you need a 850 W PSU, which is far more reasonable since you're looking at +12V 70-80A at that point. Why Nvidia went away from stating the actual amperage the GPUs use is beyond me, but it makes it much harder for us system builders to avoid going massively overkill on the power supply.
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Since you were waving a graphics card around, I wondered if you'll ever look into how accurate the GPU manufacturer's claims about power consumption are? Like for the GTX1660 Asus and Nvidia both say you need a 450 W PSU, but finding a decent 450 W PSU capable of the +12V 45A the GPU needs to function is basically impossible (at least where I live), and for the GTX3080 they say you need a 850 W PSU, which is far more reasonable since you're looking at +12V 70-80A at that point. Why Nvidia went away from stating the actual amperage the GPUs use is beyond me, but it makes it much harder for us system builders to avoid going massively overkill on the power supply.
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Leorick
I personally have used that PSU on several office builds and had never had a problem with it. But that product is no longer available in my country and the most common Thermaltake PSU you would see is the Smart RGB series. Now if there is a PSU that I would like Gamers Nexus to test, its the Thermaltake Smart SE 530w semi modular unit. This is actually my favorite of all Thermaltake PSU and would love to see what GM would make of it. Although I don't know where to get one these days. I actually have 2 of them here and have been in use for more than a decade now. It was used in 3 consecutive Intel system upgrades and the latest Ryzen upgrade.
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I personally have used that PSU on several office builds and had never had a problem with it. But that product is no longer available in my country and the most common Thermaltake PSU you would see is the Smart RGB series. Now if there is a PSU that I would like Gamers Nexus to test, its the Thermaltake Smart SE 530w semi modular unit. This is actually my favorite of all Thermaltake PSU and would love to see what GM would make of it. Although I don't know where to get one these days. I actually have 2 of them here and have been in use for more than a decade now. It was used in 3 consecutive Intel system upgrades and the latest Ryzen upgrade.
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Powernod
Very nice analysis , although with 2 remarks :
1)If the fan costs >1 , this makes me wondering about the 30 cost of this unit .
We have capacitors , we have transformers , we have the cables , we have the case , we have the working hours for the assembly .... we have a ton of things , and this unit sells only for 30 ? how did they do that ?
2)We heard the OEM for the fan , although we didn't hear the much more important OEM , which is the OEM for the platform itself. Thermaltake works with CWT for most of their higher/est-end units , but for this 30 budget unit i would be very surprised if it's also made from CWT.
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Very nice analysis , although with 2 remarks :
1)If the fan costs >1 , this makes me wondering about the 30 cost of this unit .
We have capacitors , we have transformers , we have the cables , we have the case , we have the working hours for the assembly .... we have a ton of things , and this unit sells only for 30 ? how did they do that ?
2)We heard the OEM for the fan , although we didn't hear the much more important OEM , which is the OEM for the platform itself. Thermaltake works with CWT for most of their higher/est-end units , but for this 30 budget unit i would be very surprised if it's also made from CWT.
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GuRu
Just had a clients Thermaltake 600 watt power supply that came preinstalled in a prebuilt gaming computer partially fail. One of the Sata cables stopped outputting power and fried the SSD and mechanical hard drives that were connected to it as well as the two data ports on the motherboard that were connected to the two drives. All other cables.on the Power supply still work and are putting out the correct voltage. Ended up replacing the whole power supply and installed an NVME SSD since the sataports on the motherboard no longer work (wasn't in the clients budget to also replace the motherboard).
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Just had a clients Thermaltake 600 watt power supply that came preinstalled in a prebuilt gaming computer partially fail. One of the Sata cables stopped outputting power and fried the SSD and mechanical hard drives that were connected to it as well as the two data ports on the motherboard that were connected to the two drives. All other cables.on the Power supply still work and are putting out the correct voltage. Ended up replacing the whole power supply and installed an NVME SSD since the sataports on the motherboard no longer work (wasn't in the clients budget to also replace the motherboard).
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ahayesm
A couple other things about these: The metal case is super soft, expect at least a 10% chance of one or more screws stripping out. The QC isn't all there either, about maybe 0.5% will have issues with the connectors like a 4+4 connector where a 6+2 connector should be.
One other thing about Thermaltake; their cheapness factor extends all the way to their high-end units. Stuff like daisy chained EPS, tangled wires, and flimsy molex connectors that won't mate correctly. Just get a Corsair/Seasonic/Superflower if you're throwing down more than 60.
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A couple other things about these: The metal case is super soft, expect at least a 10% chance of one or more screws stripping out. The QC isn't all there either, about maybe 0.5% will have issues with the connectors like a 4+4 connector where a 6+2 connector should be.
One other thing about Thermaltake; their cheapness factor extends all the way to their high-end units. Stuff like daisy chained EPS, tangled wires, and flimsy molex connectors that won't mate correctly. Just get a Corsair/Seasonic/Superflower if you're throwing down more than 60.
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Spyridon
From the cables , it shows its age and all the oldest psu's split too much power on 3.3/5v , even if most devices uses most power from 12v and only minor from 5v ... still bad behavior , but from my experience with TT they build to quality is great (even if i don't buy that low power psu the smallest i had was 850w) , also it would be nice to compare it to similar (400-500watt) psu's in close price range to be precise cause by my experience you can get cheap 600w oem psu's that have efficiency lower than 80% and without any protection at all.
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From the cables , it shows its age and all the oldest psu's split too much power on 3.3/5v , even if most devices uses most power from 12v and only minor from 5v ... still bad behavior , but from my experience with TT they build to quality is great (even if i don't buy that low power psu the smallest i had was 850w) , also it would be nice to compare it to similar (400-500watt) psu's in close price range to be precise cause by my experience you can get cheap 600w oem psu's that have efficiency lower than 80% and without any protection at all.
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TexasTimelapse
I lost trust in Thermaltake years ago. I had a 450w power supply from them once. I was in the middle of using Photoshop one night when I smelt a burning smell. By the time I figured out it was my PC, it was too late. It shut off, killed my motherboard, HDD and graphics card. The 24 pin connector on my mobo got hot and disfigured the plastic housing.
I took the power supply apart and something melted and burned a hole in the PCB. Melted the solder right off a section of the board.
Never again Thermaltake. Not even a case fan!!
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I lost trust in Thermaltake years ago. I had a 450w power supply from them once. I was in the middle of using Photoshop one night when I smelt a burning smell. By the time I figured out it was my PC, it was too late. It shut off, killed my motherboard, HDD and graphics card. The 24 pin connector on my mobo got hot and disfigured the plastic housing.
I took the power supply apart and something melted and burned a hole in the PCB. Melted the solder right off a section of the board.
Never again Thermaltake. Not even a case fan!!
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