HW News - Airflow Cases Are In, LOTR Keyboards, Mini-ITX Ryzen 7000 Motherboards
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Date: 2022-08-29
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Comments and reviews: 14
Lieutenant
As someone who uses a wireless Steelseries headset, while the X670E ITX doesn't suit my needs as it's tiny, I'd personally rather have 4 extra USB ports on my Aorus X570 Elite than the onboard audio it's got - all I use is the line in 3.5mm port. As much as I tell people not to bother with PCIe sound cards, an external DAC _can_ actually make a difference because you can isolate it pretty well - an inline USB power filter can help with any noise on the 5v line, while for PCIe you've got zero options as even if you shield the card in pure lead, the PCIe bus is still likely to be noisy, resulting in noise on the analogue side of the DAC in the sound card. I understand people's issues with not having the audio be there, but honestly with how many issues I've heard people have with Realtek's OEM drivers through Windows Update just not working for no reason, the drivers getting replaced with generics that have less features with no reason, and my own personal issues with the audio portion of my Crosshair V Formula Z board just blowing up entirely and no longer working at all, I honestly don't see an external DAC (if it's higher in quality) being included as a replacement as being a problem, especially given it's not unique to the board unlike all these extra feature boards like the riser sound cards that aren't normal PCIe, or M.2 risers. That being said it would be nice if they at least included S/PDIF on board, not to mention that there's just no I/O at all on the lower section of the I/O backplate.
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As someone who uses a wireless Steelseries headset, while the X670E ITX doesn't suit my needs as it's tiny, I'd personally rather have 4 extra USB ports on my Aorus X570 Elite than the onboard audio it's got - all I use is the line in 3.5mm port. As much as I tell people not to bother with PCIe sound cards, an external DAC _can_ actually make a difference because you can isolate it pretty well - an inline USB power filter can help with any noise on the 5v line, while for PCIe you've got zero options as even if you shield the card in pure lead, the PCIe bus is still likely to be noisy, resulting in noise on the analogue side of the DAC in the sound card. I understand people's issues with not having the audio be there, but honestly with how many issues I've heard people have with Realtek's OEM drivers through Windows Update just not working for no reason, the drivers getting replaced with generics that have less features with no reason, and my own personal issues with the audio portion of my Crosshair V Formula Z board just blowing up entirely and no longer working at all, I honestly don't see an external DAC (if it's higher in quality) being included as a replacement as being a problem, especially given it's not unique to the board unlike all these extra feature boards like the riser sound cards that aren't normal PCIe, or M.2 risers. That being said it would be nice if they at least included S/PDIF on board, not to mention that there's just no I/O at all on the lower section of the I/O backplate.
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Le
eeeeh.. people still use on board audio? buzz, pops and hums are still in fashion? On budget motherboard it's totally relevant but otherwise most people game with USB headsets or audio interfaces + speakers. As far as i know, none of my friends use on board audio. It's either headsets or USB audio interfaces. The very first thing i do on a new motherboard whenever i change is disabling SATA controllers and onboard audio.
Hifi speakers? RCA or HDMI.
Studio monitors? XLR or balanced TRS jacks.
Microphones for calls or streaming? XLR or USB
I feel on board audio fits less and less use cases. And they usually advertise audio grade japanese caps, super low THD, new isolation gaps for even better signal to noise ratio... all that reserved for plugging on unshielded PC speakers..
I'm personally all for getting rid of it on mid / high tier motherboards.
But it would be interesting to have some wider data like, what audio device people use the most, a bit like steam stats.
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eeeeh.. people still use on board audio? buzz, pops and hums are still in fashion? On budget motherboard it's totally relevant but otherwise most people game with USB headsets or audio interfaces + speakers. As far as i know, none of my friends use on board audio. It's either headsets or USB audio interfaces. The very first thing i do on a new motherboard whenever i change is disabling SATA controllers and onboard audio.
Hifi speakers? RCA or HDMI.
Studio monitors? XLR or balanced TRS jacks.
Microphones for calls or streaming? XLR or USB
I feel on board audio fits less and less use cases. And they usually advertise audio grade japanese caps, super low THD, new isolation gaps for even better signal to noise ratio... all that reserved for plugging on unshielded PC speakers..
I'm personally all for getting rid of it on mid / high tier motherboards.
But it would be interesting to have some wider data like, what audio device people use the most, a bit like steam stats.
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broton
There was an enthusiast motherboard that came out when I was a kid (early 2000's) that had a black PCB and zero add-in features designed purely for overclocking. Most notably, it lacked onboard audio. Why not? Onboard audio wasn't good back then - everyone used an creative add-in soundcard. These days, a lot of people are using high impedence headphones and are running external DAC's or mixers, so the onboard sound tends to go unused. I really like that, and I'll likely end up getting it if I upgrade to the 7000 series AMD stuff. I've been running small formfactor computers for over ten years now and the onboard solutions manufacturers supply usually come on ugly add-in cards that clutter everything in the case up. Just please don't bundle it with the motherboard!
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There was an enthusiast motherboard that came out when I was a kid (early 2000's) that had a black PCB and zero add-in features designed purely for overclocking. Most notably, it lacked onboard audio. Why not? Onboard audio wasn't good back then - everyone used an creative add-in soundcard. These days, a lot of people are using high impedence headphones and are running external DAC's or mixers, so the onboard sound tends to go unused. I really like that, and I'll likely end up getting it if I upgrade to the 7000 series AMD stuff. I've been running small formfactor computers for over ten years now and the onboard solutions manufacturers supply usually come on ugly add-in cards that clutter everything in the case up. Just please don't bundle it with the motherboard!
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Guy
With the prevalence of HDMI and Displayport audio solutions, and the use of USB speakers, headsets and DACs (like the one included, in case you find yourself in the out group compared to users of those products) I think dropping onboard audio is a great move. It's not just the ports at the back, there is also a bit of board space saved not needing DAC, amplification and USB bridge circuits.
ITX is generally considered a specialty segment, so having these sort of sensible tradeoffs only makes sense, even if is a departure from a longtime expectation - though again with the included DAC that seems to address any concerns, much like Dimm.2 and other ITX specializations provider other connectivity there wouldn't be space for otherwise.
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With the prevalence of HDMI and Displayport audio solutions, and the use of USB speakers, headsets and DACs (like the one included, in case you find yourself in the out group compared to users of those products) I think dropping onboard audio is a great move. It's not just the ports at the back, there is also a bit of board space saved not needing DAC, amplification and USB bridge circuits.
ITX is generally considered a specialty segment, so having these sort of sensible tradeoffs only makes sense, even if is a departure from a longtime expectation - though again with the included DAC that seems to address any concerns, much like Dimm.2 and other ITX specializations provider other connectivity there wouldn't be space for otherwise.
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power666
The lack of onboard audio would be fine if they provided AVB/TSN audio drivers for the Intel I225 and Marvel AQN-107/108 chips and just leverage PoE based network speakers. Even the older Intel I210 supported this audio mode but Intel nor Microsoft never released Windows audio drivers for it (though there was a 3rd party company that did). Linux and macOS have supported this for over half a decade now.
Speaking of cases, there is room for innovation in the case market by including the DAC as part of the front IO. Tossing a USB DAC in a card form factor and just connecting it via a USB header would also be useful as there are often ATX motherboards that don't leverage the top slot for one reason or another.
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The lack of onboard audio would be fine if they provided AVB/TSN audio drivers for the Intel I225 and Marvel AQN-107/108 chips and just leverage PoE based network speakers. Even the older Intel I210 supported this audio mode but Intel nor Microsoft never released Windows audio drivers for it (though there was a 3rd party company that did). Linux and macOS have supported this for over half a decade now.
Speaking of cases, there is room for innovation in the case market by including the DAC as part of the front IO. Tossing a USB DAC in a card form factor and just connecting it via a USB header would also be useful as there are often ATX motherboards that don't leverage the top slot for one reason or another.
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Richard
Ironically as someone who's got an Audient DAC box plugged into my current full size rig & had an offboard DAC for the last one - this does actually bother me a bit for something of that form factor. I'm looking at building a tiny box to live by the TV & the TV's audio isn't particularily amazing, so having to wire everything through that would suck a little. In general though I've hardly ever used onboard audio, in the past it's either been noisy, just sucked, or randomly died. Is it going to end up cheaper though :p
Could you look at a couple of cases for that sort of thing perhaps? small footprint, maybe fanless, maybe some fun design like the ( hideously expensive but cool ) Streacom DB4?
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Ironically as someone who's got an Audient DAC box plugged into my current full size rig & had an offboard DAC for the last one - this does actually bother me a bit for something of that form factor. I'm looking at building a tiny box to live by the TV & the TV's audio isn't particularily amazing, so having to wire everything through that would suck a little. In general though I've hardly ever used onboard audio, in the past it's either been noisy, just sucked, or randomly died. Is it going to end up cheaper though :p
Could you look at a couple of cases for that sort of thing perhaps? small footprint, maybe fanless, maybe some fun design like the ( hideously expensive but cool ) Streacom DB4?
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E.L.
When I think of ITX boards I think of smaller builds for limited space or for portability. Both ideas would mean an external audio solution removes the form factor advantage. I have spoken to many in the industry about a gamer oriented ITX board with certain features lost. We have discussed the removal of on board Wifi since it can easily be handled by a dongle as well as the removal of the SATA ports since two m.2 slots should give most gamers the storage they need. However the removal of onboard audio seems a step to far.
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When I think of ITX boards I think of smaller builds for limited space or for portability. Both ideas would mean an external audio solution removes the form factor advantage. I have spoken to many in the industry about a gamer oriented ITX board with certain features lost. We have discussed the removal of on board Wifi since it can easily be handled by a dongle as well as the removal of the SATA ports since two m.2 slots should give most gamers the storage they need. However the removal of onboard audio seems a step to far.
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Anizio
I'm currently stuck with a case that doesn't let me add a hard drive (which 1TB is getting small for me) and if i wanted a tri fan card i would need to cut a hole in it
it's way better than the OEM one that i had, dual molex fans that have a ugly RGB that i can't turn off at least coll my pc properly, but aside that i just hate this case
I've spent 300R (around 60 USD, but stuff tend to be sold 10x the said value in usd, imagine spending 250R in a noctua fan, in Brazil you can do it just fine)
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I'm currently stuck with a case that doesn't let me add a hard drive (which 1TB is getting small for me) and if i wanted a tri fan card i would need to cut a hole in it
it's way better than the OEM one that i had, dual molex fans that have a ugly RGB that i can't turn off at least coll my pc properly, but aside that i just hate this case
I've spent 300R (around 60 USD, but stuff tend to be sold 10x the said value in usd, imagine spending 250R in a noctua fan, in Brazil you can do it just fine)
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John
Onboard audio is a mess, and as someone who already uses a high end DAC and a Wave XLR, the worst thing in the world is the horrible software and drivers that try to overtake every audio source and try to route things in ways I don't want it to do.
Steam does it. OBS does it. XSplit does it. Now even AMD's Radeon drivers do it. They create software inputs and outputs, and they all pollute my sound control panel and try to take exclusive control over each other. It's the absolute worst.
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Onboard audio is a mess, and as someone who already uses a high end DAC and a Wave XLR, the worst thing in the world is the horrible software and drivers that try to overtake every audio source and try to route things in ways I don't want it to do.
Steam does it. OBS does it. XSplit does it. Now even AMD's Radeon drivers do it. They create software inputs and outputs, and they all pollute my sound control panel and try to take exclusive control over each other. It's the absolute worst.
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dotkaine
Ever since switching to a DAC, I could never see myself going back. Most people who I let compare outputs can immediately notice the difference, and more than a couple have themselves switched over as a result.
The great thing about good audio equipment is that it stays good for years/decades. So a quality DAC is an upgrade you can carry across from build to build without issue.
The added benefit is that it should free up more real estate for additional USB/NIC ports IMO.
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Ever since switching to a DAC, I could never see myself going back. Most people who I let compare outputs can immediately notice the difference, and more than a couple have themselves switched over as a result.
The great thing about good audio equipment is that it stays good for years/decades. So a quality DAC is an upgrade you can carry across from build to build without issue.
The added benefit is that it should free up more real estate for additional USB/NIC ports IMO.
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Adragontattoo
I'd be more interested to see how some of the Older NON glass cases do with thermals of modern HW. The Tt care is just not appealing to me (though I have been boycotting Tt since the Big Typhoon era (I honestly can't remember exactly why currently.) I'm not interested in a glass case, never have been and don't honestly see the appeal.
Then again, I LOVE cube style ATX cases. I still want one of the ancient Lian Li dual PC cases and/or a Mountain Mods case...
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I'd be more interested to see how some of the Older NON glass cases do with thermals of modern HW. The Tt care is just not appealing to me (though I have been boycotting Tt since the Big Typhoon era (I honestly can't remember exactly why currently.) I'm not interested in a glass case, never have been and don't honestly see the appeal.
Then again, I LOVE cube style ATX cases. I still want one of the ancient Lian Li dual PC cases and/or a Mountain Mods case...
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ThrasherEscapes
The Thermaltake Versa H18 has a mesh-style front panel, a single 120mm exhaust fan, room for a decent sized tower cooler, and ample cable management space on the backside - especially so for a mATX case. It is often under 60US. I've built a couple of systems in it recently and have been impressed with its performance at that price range, although I'd like to see another fan or two included - even if that meant the price going up to 60-70.
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The Thermaltake Versa H18 has a mesh-style front panel, a single 120mm exhaust fan, room for a decent sized tower cooler, and ample cable management space on the backside - especially so for a mATX case. It is often under 60US. I've built a couple of systems in it recently and have been impressed with its performance at that price range, although I'd like to see another fan or two included - even if that meant the price going up to 60-70.
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Mr.Huggles
I rely on motherboard audio to have any audio at all. Thanks to monitors not having any hdmi-out port, i'm forced to rout audio from the motherboard to my speaker bar, while video is pipped the normal way from gpu to monitor. It's a unique setup, but without on-board audio I'd have to look for a different company & hardily anyone makes itx or dtx boards for small form factor builds. I really don't want to rely on Gigabyte for future boards.
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I rely on motherboard audio to have any audio at all. Thanks to monitors not having any hdmi-out port, i'm forced to rout audio from the motherboard to my speaker bar, while video is pipped the normal way from gpu to monitor. It's a unique setup, but without on-board audio I'd have to look for a different company & hardily anyone makes itx or dtx boards for small form factor builds. I really don't want to rely on Gigabyte for future boards.
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BenJeremy
I miss Nvidia chipset Soundstorm audio... I could go pure digital (TOSLink) to my 5.1 audio receiver for complete audio. None of this PCM stereo crap, none of the nonsense of feeding the movie 5.1 stream as a passthrough. Full PC audio, as in Dolby Direct Live. To get that, even today, you need to buy a Xonar card. Creative LAbs advertises the features on some of their cards, but drivers inevitably mess this up to nonfunctionality.
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I miss Nvidia chipset Soundstorm audio... I could go pure digital (TOSLink) to my 5.1 audio receiver for complete audio. None of this PCM stereo crap, none of the nonsense of feeding the movie 5.1 stream as a passthrough. Full PC audio, as in Dolby Direct Live. To get that, even today, you need to buy a Xonar card. Creative LAbs advertises the features on some of their cards, but drivers inevitably mess this up to nonfunctionality.
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